The post below I have posted in a thread specific to the issue, thanks @binman who started it off (hope you don't mind). I have also been encouraged to post in the main threads and not hide this issue away in the back threads.

"I think what Andy has noted above is really important, with the second para of critical importance and raises an issue that i was just thinking of highlighting - the safety of victim survivors, women and children who read DL.

As long time posters could attest, for many years i derailed many football related threads with discussions about non football related societal issues (and yes i know everything is related) that i am passionate about - family violence included. For a range of reasons i try not to do so now.

One reason is this is a footy forum. For example this thread is nominally about training and how fair is it for people who want to discuss training to wade through unrelated posts?

And how fair for say a victim survivor to want to read training reports and instead get caught up in an unmoderated debate about men's use of violence?

Which of course is not to say it is not an important discussion, or that i am saying there should not be the opportunity to discuss challenging issues on DL. But there is a place Andy and the people who designed this brilliant site specifically for non football related discussions:

https://demonland.com/forums/forum/10-general-discussion/

On the topic of family violence, i wholeheartedly agree there needs to be discussion in society, particularly amongst men. 

But i don't believe a football focused thread is the appropriate space for such discussions (and even in the general forum i would have my concerns because of the risks of misinformation and traumatizing victim survivors if not expertly moderated - which is an incredibly difficult thing to do if the topic is family violence).

I feel very strongly about this issue.

I have a qualification in men's use of family violence, a prerequisite to become telephone counselor with the Men's Referral Service (MRS), which i did weekly for many years. MRS is a service for men who want to take responsibility for their choice to use violence.

And in addition to working with victim survivors (which by the by will 100% include men on this site who experienced FV as children) and perpetrators across multiple community service sectors, I have done work in the men's behaviour change space.

That work includes projects looking at the the law's response to perpetrators, including an analysis of the research into the efficacy of prevention strategies that focus on men's use of violence.

I say all of that to establish I have a level of expertise and knowledge in the family violence space, and specifically men's use of violence. 

Thankfully i am not a moderator, but as  someone with a level of expertise about family violence i was disturbed by many of the posts.

And not just those that expressed views i vehemently disagreed with. Also some posts that whilst well meaning, if I am being completely honest, leant into the sort of dangerous myths, and even flat out misinformation, that are a huge part of the problem.

And even with a level of expertise, and a significant amount of relevant training, experience and education about family violence, i don't know that I would have the specialist skills to moderate an online discussion between anonymous posters.  And i would actively discourage any attempts to do so by anyone that does not have those high level skills. 

Almost impossible to keep such a space safe - even for specialist family violence organisations.

It makes me fell ill that any woman reading this thread felt the need to reach out to Andy express discomfort and was made to feel unsafe. I can understand why. 

If anyone doubts the wisdom shutting down the conversation on this thread because they believe it is important to talk about family violence please consider the risks to the safety victim survivors, women and children who are part of our shared community here on DL. 

I 1000% support the decision to not have a discussion about family violence on a football thread.

I think discussion is important.

But i believe that the most important discussions are those by men with their family, particularly their sons, and friends, particularly their male friends. Unlike here, those conversations are not anonymous and are with people you love and trust.  

But I believe even more important than discussion is education. Well education first then discussion. 

Critical is understanding what family violence is, how many different types of family violence there are (eg financial control, psychological, electronic surveillance, control, emotional abuse, use of technology etc) and what drives it.

A great place to start is arguably the most significant government led action in this space by any government, ever,  Victoria's Royal Commission into Family Violence.

For more general information Victoria's peak body for family and gender-based violence Safe Steps is a great.

For information about men's use of violence, Victoria's peak for ending male violence, No to Violence is a terrific resource.  

And if you are man who is concerned about your use of violence, the Men's Referral Service is the national counselling, information and referral service for men who use violence and abuse who want to change their behaviour. 

It is a confidential, anonymous service available 24/7 that you can call on 1300 766 491.

Thanks Bin for your start, and the work you do or have done in this difficult and at times disgraceful stuff.

If only I had what I posted before as a template.

I hope good intentions are at the forefront of any discussion involving domestic violence.

 Many Women have asked men to 'step up', this is a male issue at heart, and we can and have to get engaged with the issue. Though for me personally it was/is a child issue. I grew up in an argumentative household.

Please, anyone suffering the infliction of dealing in intimate relationships with cohersion and violence in its many forms, reach out for help. Now is the time.

I'd like to say, the censorship in the training thread may have been because one person wanted to discuss the definition of "toxic masculinity", got a bit off kilter and because of the sensitivities that Binman talked about, down came the gavel.

 

Can I flag again kev my concerns about the challenges and difficulty of moderating a thread such as this.

One person's robust debate is another's trauma.

And this thread would be better I think in the general discussion forum, nor the footy one. Fir reasons I've noted.

I won't be posting in the thread, but If the thread continues, can I respectively ask people to re read the post though a safety lens (oe could this make someone feel unsafe) before hitting submit.

It's great kev that you are passionate about making a difference. Don't forget the education piece.

Edited May 3, 2024May 3 by binman

The perpetrators are still in the minority, and as Binman said, need education.

Though many would say, we need the courts and their administrators of AVO's, warrants and paroles to also be much more effective then what is practiced.

The rest of us have to take a stand. Enough is enough, has rung out for years. I see similar to the "are you ok" campaign. Ask each other do you need help controlling the emotions, are you cohesive, are you yelling, are you hitting. Look your friend in the eye and get help or talk, bring the issue out from closed doors.

Binman says we may not be qualified, could be doing more harm. I'd say cannot get much worse, growing numbers of victims, the knock on effect to society as a collective. 

Make a difference 

Edited May 3, 2024May 3 by kev martin

Kudos @kev martin & @binman

I support your views, this is a men's issue and we must step up to help make women safe.

In the past few weeks I have reinforced to my sons that violence to women is unacceptable (they heard this from me many times before) however this time I challenged them to do something about it.

My wife had worked in the field in the 80's and 90's. Some of the stories are horrendous.

I also understand that this conversation could trigger some people so agree that it be a separate thread, unfortunately.

Hear hear Kev.  I agree we have a long way to go to stamp out domestic violence but I'd like to put in a slightly different perspective.

As Crikey has pointed out the rates of domestic spouse homicide are about half of what they were on the mid 80's.

You can look this up on the Australian Institute of Criminology statistics.

There has been a definite spike this year but the stats are trending in the right direction.

We now have women's refuges, AVO's and police take domestic violence more seriously.

The AFL & NRL now take action on players charged with DV and society rightly shuns them  whereas previously it was ignored.

We have a long way to go but things are moving in the right direction.

And finally don't forget that while the vast majority of victims of DV are women & children around 10-15 % of the victims are men.

 

By the by, moderation is a bit of a misnomer in terms of dl.

Moderation for sensitive topics such as this usually involves posts being checked and then approved (or not) - and somtimes edited. Labor intensive requiring someone always on shift, so to speak. 

The moderaters on dl respond to reports or obvious issues and deltet3 as required. But because this is a volunteer run site there can often be a lag before sketchy posts can be be actioned.

4 minutes ago, kev martin said:

The perpetrators are still in the minority, and as Binman said, need education.

I meant we ALL need education, not just perpetrators.

Which is why I linked the rcfv and safe steps. 

And that it's important knowledge is the foundation of discussion there is the very real risk of dangerous myths, of which there are many, getting perpetrated.

A key piece of knowledge is what drives it. And the answer is one that many get wrong. Of course we need to stop perpetrators of violence but they are symptoms nor cause.

14 minutes ago, Cranky Franky said:

There has been a definite spike this year but the stats are trending in the right direction.

Think there is more awareness, more reporting too. But zero violence and intimidation needs to be the goal.

15 minutes ago, binman said:

Of course we need to stop perpetrators of violence but they are symptoms nor cause.

That is therapy talk. Placate the client, break them down and build them up with appropriate behaviour.

The victim, the victim, under a table in the foetal position, with the kids wanting daily activities. They could be the focus in the discussion.

Leave the individual changes to professionals. Takes more than a phone counselling session, and education.

Perpetrators please reach out for help.

Victims, oh I wish I could help take "that" that I will never comprehend, away from you.

You have many allies in most of us men.

Edited May 3, 2024May 3 by kev martin

Of course, not all men are violent.  But too many women have been murdered by men.  FACT.

11 minutes ago, kev martin said:

That is therapy talk. Placate the client, break them down and build them up with appropriate behaviour.

The victim, the victim, under a table in the foetal position, with the kids wanting daily activities. They could be the focus in the discussion.

Leave the individual changes to professionals. Takes more than a phone counselling session, and education.

Perpetrators please reach out for help.

Victims, oh I wish I could help take "that" that I will never comprehend, away from you.

You have many allies in most of us men.

Read the exec summary of the royal commission report kev.

I'm out

35 minutes ago, Cranky Franky said:

Hear hear Kev.  I agree we have a long way to go to stamp out domestic violence but I'd like to put in a slightly different perspective.

As Crikey has pointed out the rates of domestic spouse homicide are about half of what they were on the mid 80's.

You can look this up on the Australian Institute of Criminology statistics.

There has been a definite spike this year but the stats are trending in the right direction.

We now have women's refuges, AVO's and police take domestic violence more seriously.

The AFL & NRL now take action on players charged with DV and society rightly shuns them  whereas previously it was ignored.

We have a long way to go but things are moving in the right direction.

And finally don't forget that while the vast majority of victims of DV are women & children around 10-15 % of the victims are men.

 

And for men it's mainly psychological abuse, which is as important to discuss as well as physical abuse.

26 minutes ago, binman said:

Read the exec summary of the royal commission report

I probably won't, my preference is to stay with the victims in a heartfelt empathetic approach. 

I reckon solutions are to be left to the institutions, and as more men reach out (hoping), and there is less acting out, then they will make the family dynamics much better, whether in separation, or together. 

Edited May 3, 2024May 3 by kev martin

6 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

And for men it's mainly psychological abuse, which is as important to discuss as well as physical abuse.

There is a huge place for our institutions to help those having dysfunction in the relationship. Family therapy, etcetera, however the consequences of the assaulted person is devastating. 

I think the term male or female can be interchangeable in the discussion. Though most victims still are women. Leaving the family home with the kids, being financially independent, feeling safe in public because of the distrust, just feeling safe.

I am not trying to dismiss the reality of psychology abuse towards the men. A sign of dysfunction, ask for help. Head in the right direction and life for each can improve. The kids would love the abuse to stop.

Reach out make positive steps in the right direction. 

I know it takes two, and finding time and volition for both is not easy. As a supporter I say, get help, dynamics can snowball in the wrong direction and unhappiness permeate.  

@binman, don't be out.

The whole point of the feminine asking for the masculine to come forward is that we stay 'in' and not put the issue of domestic violence, in the ignore, too hard basket, too sensitive an issue, unskilled for the discussion, or embarrassed. We are needed.

Being one of the people who do or haved worked in the area, your reflections are definitely needed and wanted.

I understand your hesitation in that we may harm others with our thoughts about the issue.

The whole intention is to bring domestic violence out of the shadows, and that will obviously bring past and present pain. 

Men are reluctant to talk about it. Keep giving Bin and others.

I for one am willing to put my thoughts out there, and will be sincerely reflective on the feedback I get.

Edited May 3, 2024May 3 by kev martin

14 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

Hear hear Kev.  I agree we have a long way to go to stamp out domestic violence but I'd like to put in a slightly different perspective.

As Crikey has pointed out the rates of domestic spouse homicide are about half of what they were on the mid 80's.

You can look this up on the Australian Institute of Criminology statistics.

There has been a definite spike this year but the stats are trending in the right direction.

We now have women's refuges, AVO's and police take domestic violence more seriously.

The AFL & NRL now take action on players charged with DV and society rightly shuns them  whereas previously it was ignored.

We have a long way to go but things are moving in the right direction.

And finally don't forget that while the vast majority of victims of DV are women & children around 10-15 % of the victims are men.

 

Good to also point out men experience DV and it can play out in non physical means also. I would hypothesis that DV against men in its many forms is undereported. This shouldn't be a gender based discussion and isn't about diminishing the issue for women

22 minutes ago, Demons1858 said:

Good to also point out men experience DV and it can play out in non physical means also. I would hypothesis that DV against men in its many forms is undereported. This shouldn't be a gender based discussion and isn't about diminishing the issue for women

Good point 1858.  In my 38 years in the workforce the only certain DV that I knew about was a bloke called PG.

He was jockey sized & an alcoholic. His much larger wife would come in at lunchtime on payday to grab his cheque.

PG would often come in with black eyes & mumble about walking into doors.

30 minutes ago, Demons1858 said:

Good to also point out men experience DV and it can play out in non physical means also. I would hypothesis that DV against men in its many forms is undereported. This shouldn't be a gender based discussion and isn't about diminishing the issue for women

I agree in part Demons1858. The LGBT community experience FV at a higher percentage than the straight community. It’s men on men and women on women, and I include the Trans community as higher rates of FV.. Elder abuse is another area in which children (as adults) inflict abuse on their elderly parents. 
 

But, women are dying at an alarming rate. The focus on gender is an open door to discuss other less known areas but keep the focus on what should never be accepted. People dying at the hands of their family members. 
 

Just on this, I work with an organisation who has a large FV program across the eastern states. Men Behavioural Change programs are proven to be unsuccessful. Less than 20% of perpetrators change their behaviour. Alarming! 

1 hour ago, Demons1858 said:

Good to also point out men experience DV and it can play out in non physical means also. I would hypothesis that DV against men in its many forms is undereported. This shouldn't be a gender based discussion and isn't about diminishing the issue for women

We cannot be defensive about this. The "they made me do it", is the wrong angle. Have dysfunction in your relationships, get help. Heal the situation while you still can, before it may spiral, do it for you and most importantly the damaging effect and distress on the kids. Being a better partner, by using various forms of strategies, and counselling can only assist us in being better people to be around. Life lessons that are useful throughout the journey, you may find greater peace, love, and freedom from conflict by addressing the dysfunction.

Your intimates pay the price if we don't get the help, men or women within the storm.

The Gendered approach is in response to the current social issues movement being addressed in the media by a ground swell of many saying, the violence has to stop, and how can we help.

Edited May 4, 2024May 4 by kev martin

43 minutes ago, Demonsterative said:

Just on this, I work with an organisation who has a large FV program across the eastern states. Men Behavioural Change programs are proven to be unsuccessful. Less than 20% of perpetrators change their behaviour. Alarming! 

What a damming stat that is, 1 in 5 turn their life around. 

At least they are talking about putting more funds into prevention. Especially when we are school aged. 

I would love to see therapeutic workshop areas as popular as the corner store. Not just dealing with DV, but all issues in our lives. There are more than 300 types of mainstream psychological theories, with numerous personal development programs stemming from them. 

Find and search for the correct approach where you and your intimates benefit. I suggest a bit of reading then jump in, with a kind of trial and error approach. 

Make it on your volition, really don't want the court orders as that means something has gone out of your hands, very likely self unrecognised, and family dynamics have spiralled far away from 'normal', into unsafe places.

Therapy is best when I acknowledge my need to change and I reach out for help.

Edited May 4, 2024May 4 by kev martin

It's important to mention too that DV has a huge impact upon children. I'm sure that there are many posters here that have been impacted by one or more of their parents behaviour towards each other. There will be those who object to footy being an area of entertainment escapism that is used to shed light on this.

But this is too big of an issue that it's a small price to pay. We simply must do as much as possible to stop all this. Tx for sharing peeps.

Edited May 4, 2024May 4 by leave it to deever

Just found out a close friend of mine has been abused by her husband for years.. never saw it coming and feel guilty for not noticing, they have stayed with us on many occasions.

I love the fact that there is awareness, the AFL should ditch some gambling ads or crypto ads and focus on domestic violence awareness ads. The perpetrators need to feel shame every time they switch on the footy. They should feel confronted and not be able to escape it, because that is how the victims feel.

1 hour ago, Demonsterative said:

 

 

Just on this, I work with an organisation who has a large FV program across the eastern states. Men Behavioural Change programs are proven to be unsuccessful. Less than 20% of perpetrators change their behaviour. Alarming! 

Jeez that both depressing and alarming.

It opens the question on Tarryn Thomas.

In my view any player suspended for DV or related matters would need to demonstrate with testable evidence that they have changed.

And not just issuing statements of cliched PR weasel words.

Something like volunteering for a year with a DV organisation would be a start.

1 hour ago, SPC said:

Just found out a close friend of mine has been abused by her husband for years.. never saw it coming and feel guilty for not noticing, they have stayed with us on many occasions.

Sorry to hear, stay strong, SPC.

Be there for your friend. Perhaps, assist with a safety plan, and of course emotional support. 

Ask some services what is the best way to help them and yourself. Can be devastating when a friend is in pain. 

Lots of supports and services are available and that leaving the relationship is not something anyone has to do alone. Though, don't pressure them on this, leave all decisions to them.

 

Edited May 4, 2024May 4 by kev martin