4 hours ago, Macca said:

There are a few people here trying to explain further on from "Racism shouldn't happen" versus those who are simply saying it shouldn't exist

I'm way past that stuff so if racism is to disappear we first of all need to understand the why, how, where & when. 

Origins, instincts, fears, differences, education etc etc

Do the deep dive and then it becomes clearer.

For instance, most people (if not all) that I've come across in my life have had some sort of strong prejudice against something (often unfounded) Humans are flawed at the basic level

So how do you fix that?

 

It starts with you, me and the rest of us.  We simply no longer accept it.  I am old enough to remember shows which portrayed white actors and musicians with blackened faces.  See Al Jolson.  Sweets sold to kids with black faces on the wrappers.  The "N" word used as brand names on consumables.

Where are they now?  Consigned to the dustbin of history.  Things evolve and change for the better.  We need to be part of that re/evolution.

Get with the program son.  Stop providing the way out for bigots.  There is no place for it anymore, regardless of whether you are white, black, brown or brindle.

Only good people can make the change.  We should not accept racism as simply being part of the human condition.  As we do with the Big Freeze, I would be happy to March to the 'G - when we we can - as a public statement against racism and if my arthritis allows me, I would even take a 'knee'.

 

 

4 minutes ago, faultydet said:

So you don't place any weight whatsoever on the fact he SPECIFICALLY said he wasn't referring to white supremacists and that they should be "condemned totally"?

That's the entire point of the criticism against him from many quarters.

 

He did say that in a “Roundabout way” only because he had to. 
At the same time he did not fully condone what Happened. It was all about White Supremacy 

They had all walked in the night before with flaming Crosses. I will never forget it. 
i was shocked 

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

He did say that in a “Roundabout way” only because he had to. 
At the same time he did not fully condone what Happened. It was all about White Supremacy 

They had all walked in the night before with flaming Crosses. I will never forget it. 
i was shocked 

Any sane person would condemn the KKK [censored]. The fact it still happens shows their are some truly awful parents in the southern states.

He was not good waiting for so long to say something. He would surely have known the attack dogs in the press would be pinning this on him. I just think that specifically saying they should be "condemned totally" should be recognized by all.

It's not a small thing. It's central to the issue.

10 minutes ago, faultydet said:

Any sane person would condemn the KKK [censored]. The fact it still happens shows their are some truly awful parents in the southern states.

He was not good waiting for so long to say something. He would surely have known the attack dogs in the press would be pinning this on him. I just think that specifically saying they should be "condemned totally" should be recognized by all.

It's not a small thing. It's central to the issue.

Trump took a long time to say anything. He didn’t want to. A lot of those White Supremacists were people who voted him in weeks before  

He said “there were good people on both sides” Sorry I cannot agree with that. i saw the car Mow down the crowd in that  big American V8

It was exactly the same as the January 6 Capitol Riots. Trump incited those and then went back to the White House to Watch it on TV 📺 

“Look, i did all this..”

Republicans are now trying to deny parts of it.  We all saw it.

America has always been divided down the middle, but that division is miles wide now. That’s the Trump legacy

Edited August 13, 20213 yr by Sir Why You Little

9 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Trump took a long time to say anything. He didn’t want to. A lot of those White Supremacists were people who voted him in weeks before  

He said “there were good people on both sides” Sorry I cannot agree with that. i saw the car Mow down the crowd in that  big American V8

It was exactly the same as the January 6 Capitol Riots. Trump incited those and then went back to the White House to Watch it on TV 📺 

“Look, i did all this..”

Republicans are now trying to deny parts of it.  We all saw it.

America has always been divided down the middle, but that division is miles wide now. That’s the Trump legacy

Disagree wholeheartedly, but lets leave it at that.

Thanks for the civil replies mate.

24 minutes ago, deanox said:

Macca surely you can see how takimg up space in this thread to discuss vilifying an umpire detracts from the issue at hand?

I attached the clubs statement earlier.

It doesn't ask us to "compare racism to other discrimination and assess which is worse".

It doesn't ask us to debate whether what was said was really that bad (like posters who focussed on knowing the particular words tried to do).

It certainly doesn't ask "why should First Nations people get special awards, isn't that racism itself?" (which one poster did).

It asks us to play a proactive role in stamping out racism, to call out racism where we see it.

 

If you are well intentioned, don't bring the topic down to this level. There are posters here who are pushing racist talking points, trying to sabotage the conversation. Tackle that issue, that's what it's about this week.

Leave the treatment of umpires for another time.

I'm probably done here for now but the language towards umpires on this site needs to be toned down a lot ... same as racial vilification needs to be shut down. 

I like to broaden arguments and therefore, not leave anything out.  I'm a stickler for fairness in as many areas as possible

Abuse of players or put downs ... I have never done it.  So let's be fair everywhere

Umpires are not chxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx.

There's one phrase that should cop a ban but that phrase can pop up 20 times on the game day thread

You seriously worried about this thread being used as a conduit for other issues?

Your history ... you don't like umpires deanox

4 minutes ago, faultydet said:

Disagree wholeheartedly, but lets leave it at that.

Thanks for the civil replies mate.

Don’t want to get personal 

so i think that is a good idea 👍 

48 minutes ago, faultydet said:

Any sane person would condemn the KKK [censored]. The fact it still happens shows their are some truly awful parents in the southern states.

He was not good waiting for so long to say something. He would surely have known the attack dogs in the press would be pinning this on him. I just think that specifically saying they should be "condemned totally" should be recognized by all.

It's not a small thing. It's central to the issue.

The fact is that Tuck Frump acquiesced to the white supremacists, when asked to condemn them.  Rather he chose to deflect to the perceived left wing movement known as Antifa.  His reticence resulted in a female law enforcement officer being fatally wounded.  The man is anathema to anything that approaches reasonableness.  He became a parody of himself.

His words and inaction caused this.   Never forget, Black Lives Matter.

 

 

Edited August 13, 20213 yr by I'va Worn Smith

12 minutes ago, I'va Worn Smith said:

The fact is that Tuck Frump acquiesced to the white supremacists, when asked to condemn them.  Rather he chose to deflect to the perceived left wing movement known as Antifa.  His reticence resulted in a female law enforcement officer being fatally wounded.  The man is anathema to anything that approaches reasonableness.  He became a parody of himself.

His words and inaction caused this.   Never forget, Black Lives Matter.

 

 

Thank you 🙏 

46 minutes ago, Macca said:

I'm probably done here for now but the language towards umpires on this site needs to be toned down a lot ... same as racial vilification needs to be shut down. 

I like to broaden arguments and therefore, not leave anything out.  I'm a stickler for fairness in as many areas as possible

Abuse of players or put downs ... I have never done it.  So let's be fair everywhere

Umpires are not chxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx.

There's one phrase that should cop a ban but that phrase can pop up 20 times on the game day thread

You seriously worried about this thread being used as a conduit for other issues?

Your history ... you don't like umpires deanox

Seriously you are turning an anti racism thread into "but you don't like umpires discussion"?Y ou have demonstrated which side of the fence you are on, and unfortunately it's the wrong one.

 

For the record I have no problem with any individual umpires. I recognise that they do their best despite the standard being relatively low. When I comment on umpiring, I attack the decision, but I don't attack the individual. They are workers doing the job under instructions of their employer, and it is the AFLs directions I have a problem with.

8 minutes ago, deanox said:

Seriously you are turning an anti racism thread into "but you don't like umpires discussion"?Y ou have demonstrated which side of the fence you are on, and unfortunately it's the wrong one.

 

For the record I have no problem with any individual umpires. I recognise that they do their best despite the standard being relatively low. When I comment on umpiring, I attack the decision, but I don't attack the individual. They are workers doing the job under instructions of their employer, and it is the AFLs directions I have a problem with.

I'm just on the lookout for those who don't practice what they preach.  So it's perfectly fine to have fair & reasonable attitude towards racial equality and speaking out about vilification & discrimination.  I'm on board with all that 100%

But fairness needs to be across the board and plain to see for me to recognise that type of stance. 

I can believe a bloke like 'hardtack' as he is one of the more fair-minded individuals I've come across on this site (the feeling may not be mutual though!)

I suppose that's the ultimate point I'm making.  Is what we read to be believed? 

Put it this way, I can't judge anyone on one stance alone.  They need to show me that they are fair-minded in all sorts of areas before I'm buying in

Like I said, broadening arguments gives a better cross section of an individuals real motive

So in my eyes, I see a connection with this thread with umpires being continually abused & vilified on this site ... ditto on player abuse

If others disagree, so be it

19 hours ago, Youngwilliam said:

But you're not giving solutions. How do you fix this?

The way to solve this is to have these conversations and to educate yourself on the issue. When you hear casually racist comments from your mates/co-workers/family, challenge them on it.

If by ‘fix this’ you mean stop online racism by trolls by 100% then that’s not completely attainable. But, remember that logic is the same as saying ‘well we shouldn’t have speed limits because people still die on the roads’

A way racism persists is that it is payed down as being jokes, or just words or the onus of responsibility is put back on the people being vilified as just ‘being too sensitive’

You can only control what is around you inter-personally in this regard. Racism is very complex and nuanced so the first step to fixing things is to start with yourself and wilfully try to understand where prejudices come from. In time, if enough people do it, then that’s how societal change occurs.

I certainly had prejudices when I was younger and had to make the effort of where they came from and why I held the beliefs I had.

4 minutes ago, Macca said:

I'm just on the lookout for those who don't practice what they preach.  So it's perfectly fine to have fair & reasonable attitude towards racial equality and speaking out about vilification & discrimination.  I'm on board with all that 100%

But fairness needs to be across the board and plain to see for me to recognise that type of stance. 

I can believe a bloke like 'hardtack' as he is one of the more fair-minded individuals I've come across on this site (the feeling may not be mutual though!)

I suppose that's the ultimate point I'm making.  Is what we read to be believed? 

Put it this way, I can't judge anyone on one stance alone.  They need to show me that they are fair-minded in all sorts of areas before I'm buying in

Like I said, broadening arguments gives a better cross section of an individuals real motive

So in my eyes, I see a connection with this thread with umpires being continually abused & vilified on this site ... ditto on player abuse

If others disagree, so be it

If you see me abusing umpires, please call me out. Tag me directly. If you see me doing anything that doesn't meet the standards, call me out. I'll reflect and try to do better.

I'm not claiming I'm not racist or that I don't have conditioned biases; I know I do. But I don't need to be perfect to call other people out for their behaviour, I just need to accept that I too will be called out when I miss the mark. In fact, not walking by something unacceptable is part of improving myself.

But bringing this up in this thread puts you on the side of the racist trolls, because you are derailing and diluting the message.

Do better.

5 minutes ago, Macca said:

I'm just on the lookout for those who don't practice what they preach.  So it's perfectly fine to have fair & reasonable attitude towards racial equality and speaking out about vilification & discrimination.  I'm on board with all that 100%

But fairness needs to be across the board and plain to see for me to recognise that type of stance. 

I can believe a bloke like 'hardtack' as he is one of the more fair-minded individuals I've come across on this site (the feeling may not be mutual though!)

I suppose that's the ultimate point I'm making.  Is what we read to be believed? 

Put it this way, I can't judge anyone on one stance alone.  They need to show me that they are fair-minded in all sorts of areas before I'm buying in

Like I said, broadening arguments gives a better cross section of an individuals real motive

So in my eyes, I see a connection with this thread with umpires being continually abused & vilified on this site ... ditto on player abuse

If others disagree, so be it

I’m against umpires being abused full stop. It’s a hard and thankless job and it’s a sport in itself to take part in it.

But the abuse that umpires get is disanalagous to that of the kind of abuse that Indigenous people receive.

Being racially abused as an indigenous person is by implication (because of history/context) saying that they’re sub-human for their skin colour.

Being abused as an umpire isn’t intrinsically about their core identity as a human being. It’s based on in some parts a pantomime bullying effect that people engage in and also it’s about the actions that they make… which are changeable.

I’m not saying it’s right, I’m pointing out that racial abuse is far different than abusing an umpire.

For example, historically umpires have not been second class citizens or had the kinds of state-approved genocidal acts committed on them like indigenous people.

So in that sense, comparing the weight between racial abuse of indigenous people and abuse of umpires is nowhere near comparable…

 

7 minutes ago, Macca said:

 

4 minutes ago, deanox said:

But bringing this up in this thread puts you on the side of the racist trolls, because you are derailing and diluting the message.

No it doesn't ... it puts me into another area.  So save the lecturing ... your basic way of associating one side or the other lacks a broad approach

There might be 10 different areas in this thread by the way.  It's called nuance

It isn't black and white (no pun intended)

As for the other stuff, it isn't about you anyway ... I was talking in a general sense so don't take things too personally

As a footnote on Donald Trump.  His former Republican colleague, Senator John McCain, was a fighter pilot in the Vietnam war, who was shot down over North Vietnam.  He became a prisoner of war and endured incredible pain and torture, culminating with his broken leg being re-set, with not even an aspirin.  ( just imagine that)

After the Republican Senator passed away from a brain tumour, Trump said this

Quote

When McCain died, in August 2018, Trump told his senior staff, according to three sources with direct knowledge of this event, ‘We’re not going to support that loser’s funeral,’ and he became furious, according to witnesses, when he saw flags lowered to half-staff. ‘What the f--- are we doing that for? Guy was a f---ing loser,’ the president told aides."

How can anyone defend such a despicable person, regardless of political persuasion?

 

Edited August 13, 20213 yr by I'va Worn Smith

10 minutes ago, BoBo said:

I’m against umpires being abused full stop. It’s a hard and thankless job and it’s a sport in itself to take part in it.

But the abuse that umpires get is disanalagous to that of the kind of abuse that Indigenous people receive.

Being racially abused as an indigenous person is by implication (because of history/context) saying that they’re sub-human for their skin colour.

Being abused as an umpire isn’t intrinsically about their core identity as a human being. It’s based on in some parts a pantomime bullying effect that people engage in and also it’s about the actions that they make… which are changeable.

I’m not saying it’s right, I’m pointing out that racial abuse is far different than abusing an umpire.

For example, historically umpires have not been second class citizens or had the kinds of state-approved genocidal acts committed on them like indigenous people.

So in that sense, comparing the weight between racial abuse of indigenous people and abuse of umpires is nowhere near comparable…

 

I reckon it's closer than that but we can agree to disagree.  Abuse of umpires in an over the top way says a lot about a persons character in my view

You couple that with other narrow-minded ways that person might have and then a profile can be formed.  So I'm not inclined to buy into a stance that that person might have which serves as the opposite to their normal behavior

Over the years here, I've many times ended a post with this ....

Say No To Racism

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

I reckon it's closer than that but we can agree to disagree.  Abuse of umpires in an over the top way says a lot about a persons character in my view

You couple that with other narrow-minded ways that person might have and then a profile can be formed.  So I'm not inclined to buy into a stance that that person might have which serves as the opposite to their normal behavior

Over the years here, I've many times ended a post with this ....

Say No To Racism

Ok, substantiate in what way racial vilification and umpire abuse are closer than what I have presented?

6 minutes ago, Macca said:

I reckon it's closer than that but we can agree to disagree.  Abuse of umpires in an over the top way says a lot about a persons character in my view

You couple that with other narrow-minded ways that person might have and then a profile can be formed.  So I'm not inclined to buy into a stance that that person might have which serves as the opposite to their normal behavior

Over the years here, I've many times ended a post with this ....

Say No To Racism

Then just say no.  Nothing more needs to be said on this topic.  Your commentary on umpires and nuance are no more than a distraction to the import of the title of this thread.  Stick to the topic title please.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, I'va Worn Smith said:

As a footnote on Donald Trump.  His former Republican colleague, Senator John McCain, was a fighter pilot in the Vietnam war, who was shot down over North Vietnam.  He became a prisoner of war and endured incredible pain and torture, culminating with his broken leg being re-set, with not even an aspirin.  ( just imagine that)

After the Republican Senator passed away from a brain tumour, Trump said this

How can anyone defend such a despicable person, regardless of political persuasion?

 

This makes me sick to my stomach, and so angry. I have zero time for GOP but I acknowledge and appreciate the mettle of John McCain. Some of the things he lived through would crush a lesser man. Shame on that evil overgrown toddler  😡

 

 

And this thread is now about umpires, Trump and as much about 'Macca' as he can make it.

It's sad these threads always go this way, and it's probably a microcosm of why headway on racism is such a slog.

 

Just now, BoBo said:

Ok, substantiate in what way racial vilification and umpire abuse are closer than what I have presented?

As stated previously, abusing umpires by calling them chxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx says a lot to me about a persons character.  They are unhinged and they are everywhere on this site

That sort of behavior should carry with it a lengthy ban in my view.  Right now, if someone came out with a racial slur, they'd probably cop a ban.  And rightly so

So right now, the attitude is that one stance is perfectly fine whilst the other carries with a ban of some description.  So in my view, both stances are too far apart

Do you believe anyone here should get banned for abusing an umpire in such a fashion? 

What a shame such a worthy thread has ended up this way.

4 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

And this thread is now about umpires, Trump and as much about 'Macca' as he can make it.

It's sad these threads always go this way, and it's probably a microcosm of why headway on racism is such a slog.

 

As I said many posts ago, in answer to the many billabong posts on this this thread: what has this got to do with racial vilification of the Aboriginal people of Australia? You've hit the nail on the head: suddenly we have Trump and umpires. WTF!

9 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

And this thread is now about umpires, Trump and as much about 'Macca' as he can make it.

It's sad these threads always go this way, and it's probably a microcosm of why headway on racism is such a slog.

 

The references to Trump were about his acquiescence to racism.  Therefore, the references are relevant to this topic.  In terms of the rest of your observations, I wholeheartedly agree.