I read that the Demons handballed 199 times yesterday. This is, pro-rata, 227 handballs for a standard 20 minutes plus time-on game. Last year the Eagles headed the handball avarages with 157 per match. The Demons averaged 125. The season record was 226, again by the Eagles. Is this a sign of things to come?

Is this a sign of things to come?

Lets hope not.

That game plan was garbage last night. Just kick the bloody thing. Neitz and Robbo would've got a hell of a lot more opportunites.

I've never been more frustrated at a NAB cup game than last night.

Lets hope not.

That game plan was garbage last night. Just kick the bloody thing. Neitz and Robbo would've got a hell of a lot more opportunites.

I've never been more frustrated at a NAB cup game than last night.

It wasn't rubbish, it just wasn't meant to work at TD!

For god sake, last year everyone was going on and on about the tempo footy, and by the end of the year it became a very successful tactic. If Daniher does nothing, he has no 'plan B', but if he tries to implement new tactics they're rubbish?

We still need to work on this new 'run and carry' style, and I agree that delivery into the forward line should be done by foot, but the plan worked nicely when coming out of the backline, and once we get our A team on the field it could prove to be a match-winning tactic on the bigger grounds where space is in abundance.

I don't think you'll see us handballing into trouble on the MCG for example. This is a purely 'away' tactic as far as I can tell.

It wasn't rubbish, it just wasn't meant to work at TD!

For god sake, last year everyone was going on and on about the tempo footy, and by the end of the year it became a very successful tactic. If Daniher does nothing, he has no 'plan B', but if he tries to implement new tactics they're rubbish?

We still need to work on this new 'run and carry' style, and I agree that delivery into the forward line should be done by foot, but the plan worked nicely when coming out of the backline, and once we get our A team on the field it could prove to be a match-winning tactic on the bigger grounds where space is in abundance.

I don't think you'll see us handballing into trouble on the MCG for example. This is a purely 'away' tactic as far as I can tell.

If last night's effort was not rubbish - 199 handballs of which about 80% were to person flat footed in worse position! - then your comments aren't rubbish eaither!

How do you come up with first comment??? Not rubbish, "just wasnt meant to work at TD'!! HELLO!! the game was at TD!

Why the perfomance was bad last night is that we saw excessive handballing instead of kicking the ball to a teammate in space and with some system. If that is the way the boys start playing in NAB then may flow on into the season proper! At the game I was at the plan certainly did not work nicely and several very costly turnovers resulted!

Would also not have encouraged any one waivering about paying a membership to rush in and sign up. Our boys are a lot better than that.

It wasn't rubbish, it just wasn't meant to work at TD!

Well we've got to make something work at TD.

We play 4 games there, and if we lose most of those we won't make top 4.

People who think that the "run and carry" play lost us the game really miss the point.

This is the point. When we had the legs to implement the "run and carry" game, all be it pretty ordinarily at times, we pantsed them. It was only when we ran out of legs we got beaten.

To summarize, it was not the gameplan that let us down, it was our fitness.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good [censored] session.

Hawthorn are focusing on the NAB GF. We are focusing on the one in September. They are a month ahead of us in preparation.

I liked most of what I saw last night.

People who think that the "run and carry" play lost us the game really miss the point.

This is the point. When we had the legs to implement the "run and carry" game, all be it pretty ordinarily at times, we pantsed them. It was only when we ran out of legs we got beaten.

To summarize, it was not the gameplan that let us down, it was our fitness.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good [censored] session.

Hawthorn are focusing on the NAB GF. We are focusing on the one in September. They are a month ahead of us in preparation.

I liked most of what I saw last night.

Well spoken Fan.

People who think that the "run and carry" play lost us the game really miss the point.

This is the point. When we had the legs to implement the "run and carry" game, all be it pretty ordinarily at times, we pantsed them. It was only when we ran out of legs we got beaten.

To summarize, it was not the gameplan that let us down, it was our fitness.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good bitch session.

Hawthorn are focusing on the NAB GF. We are focusing on the one in September. They are a month ahead of us in preparation.

I liked most of what I saw last night.

I agree with most of that although I'll add that this was our first attempt at a different style and we simply couldn't expect it to work with full effect all evening when half of our most talented players were on the sidelines. I'm not making excuses for the defeat, it's just that I don't think this competition is all that particularly important in the scheme of things and our coach and football department have made it clear that their objective was to have the team right for the regular season and peaking at finals time.

Interestingly, for the second year in a row, West Coast and Sydney who played of in the finals in '05 and '06, lost their opening Nab Cup games. In fact, every team that won at the weekend finished lower than the team they beat. No offence to Carlton or Launceston, but I'm happier that we're having a hit out this week against Adelaide (albeit at Mt. Gambier) with minimal restrictions on playing lists and outside the public glare of televised Nab Cup madness (the rules give me the absolute Eartha Kitts). IMO it's better preparation for the football department than a gig in Tassie (with apologies to Nasher, Tassie Devil and our other Taswegian friends) against the Bloos.

People who think that the "run and carry" play lost us the game really miss the point.

This is the point. When we had the legs to implement the "run and carry" game, all be it pretty ordinarily at times, we pantsed them. It was only when we ran out of legs we got beaten.

To summarize, it was not the gameplan that let us down, it was our fitness.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good [censored] session.

Hawthorn are focusing on the NAB GF. We are focusing on the one in September. They are a month ahead of us in preparation.

I liked most of what I saw last night.

Very good points Fan

Although I did not see the game, due to i dont have foxtel and i live in sydney where there is no radio coverage. From all the posts i have read in this thread and in the Melbourne v Hawthorn thread, this run and carry tatic is pretty good, but in some instances it was wise not to do it. Overall i dont mind

Just my thoughts

It wasn't rubbish, it just wasn't meant to work at TD!

For god sake, last year everyone was going on and on about the tempo footy, and by the end of the year it became a very successful tactic. If Daniher does nothing, he has no 'plan B', but if he tries to implement new tactics they're rubbish?

We still need to work on this new 'run and carry' style, and I agree that delivery into the forward line should be done by foot, but the plan worked nicely when coming out of the backline, and once we get our A team on the field it could prove to be a match-winning tactic on the bigger grounds where space is in abundance.

I don't think you'll see us handballing into trouble on the MCG for example. This is a purely 'away' tactic as far as I can tell.

Agree with that Jaded, but the "run and carry" is for all narrower grounds including TD.

As said by other posters, you can't expect it to work completely first time, and btw I think it's actually 2nd time out after R22 last year.

Maybe the fact that we lost 3 times at Subi last year, three times at TD and haven't won at AAMI since the Schwarz-Leoncelli miracle is a coincidence and we should keep trying the same stuff each year. Foxtrot Foxtrot Sierra, maybe " ... throwing Fergy forward ... " will solve all our problems?

IMO it's better preparation for the football department than a gig in Tassie (with apologies to Nasher, Tassie Devil and our other Taswegian friends) against the Bloos.

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere on this site, but are practice games subjected to the same zany rules (ie. 9-pointers) as the NAB cup, or will we get a more realistic match simulation?

IMO it's better preparation for the football department than a gig in Tassie (with apologies to Nasher, Tassie Devil and our other Taswegian friends) against the Bloos.

People who think that the "run and carry" play lost us the game really miss the point.

This is the point. When we had the legs to implement the "run and carry" game, all be it pretty ordinarily at times, we pantsed them. It was only when we ran out of legs we got beaten.

To summarize, it was not the gameplan that let us down, it was our fitness.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good [censored] session.

Hawthorn are focusing on the NAB GF. We are focusing on the one in September. They are a month ahead of us in preparation.

I liked most of what I saw last night.

Agree with you Fan. We did get on top until 3/4 time when we clearly ran out of legs.

However I wish to make one point. If the team is building up to the season proper, which i can understand and by implication and looking at the players we rested as an example, we don't take this competition seriously, I hope I will be forgiven for not attending this crap anymore.

As you know I am fanatical in my support of the Dees. I wear my badge in my suit lapel all year, attend all games and practice matches wherever possible and incur the wrath of my wife for yelling out during games whenever I see an injustice done to our boys.

If the club doesn't take it seriously why should I ? Why should any supporter ?

I understand what they are trying to achieve but I can't recall any flags lately.

I would have thought you try and win every competition you are in for the obvious reasons.

I am not criticizing Neale and the Coaches and I hope we win the big one at the end of the year, but from now on if I don't care about this competition and don't attend I don't want the club criticizing me or anyone else of the same view.

Am I being unreasonable?

Am I being unreasonable?

Yes, judge our performance re our aims, it's not about winning that game - I was pleased to see some youngsters in action and some new game-style trialled.

Am I being unreasonable?

No - its each to their own.

I actually find attendance at these games a completely liberating experience where I can stroll around, check out the play from different positions i.e wing, back-line; forward-line; and focus on players without giving a hoot about the result.

I did notice many more Hawk supporters there than Demons. Symptomatic of the lower ranked clubs paying far more attention to the result than those with an eye to September.

Thought Biz was good when invoved- some clean ground level touches.

Liked Hughes quick hands in heavy traffic at one point in the first, but knackered walking around the boundary during the second.

Buckley busy and looks allright.

CJ loads of upside.

The Frawley boy made a few mistakes and will need to get used to the tempo.

Jones will be very good when surrounded by Brock, Brent and Col.

Braddy Green might have his kicking boot back.

Wardy still has plenty of tow for an old bloke - I'd have him every day of the week.

As for the Dome, what's the go selling dim sims sans soy?

Good to see we are finding a way to win on the bigger grounds,but i was disapointed with our last quarter. we shouldn't have ran out of legs with our so called 'pre season from hell' but whats done is done. Hopefully we see more improvement from the boys and have a very good season

Wardy still has plenty of tow for an old bloke - I'd have him every day of the week.

You can have him, he's not in our best 22.

You can have him, he's not in our best 22.

You're back flankers are........?

If we don't take it seriously why should I ? Why should any supporter ?

i think you got it wrong with this comment, the club did take it seriously, winning wasn't the main priority though!!

its all about preparation for the 22 rounds, plus finals

if hawthorn thought going all out to win the NAB was the best preparation for the season, then good luck to them, we all know that kids struggle to last 22 rounds, let alone the extra 4 rounds of the NAB cup, i give them to about round 12-15 when they lose the plot completly

on the other hand, it looks like we are easing to this, using the pre season games to try out different things, so what works, what doesnt, and come round 1 everything should be in place!

dont start bagging them already everyone, at least wait til after our first real game

As Whispering Jack said above, the bonus of having bailed out of the NAB Cup is that we now get to play and practice under "real season" rules, not the trumped up ones exclusive to this game of pretend. While we would have maintained a higher profile and gained greater access to prize money, exposure and likely membership sales, the reality of it is that these NAB rules can play havoc with developing game plans.

Boundary throw ins that nearly always land in the centre corridor, players who try to bomb 9 pointers rather than set up team mates in better positions, posters that bounce back into play at random angles that leave too much to chance, all contribute to a coaching nightmare as they endeavour to prepare their charges for the realities of the season proper.

The Losers' Challenge or whatever it's called, allows for truer match simulation away from the spotlight. Truer rather than true, as this is a time for experimentation of game plans, player positioning, rookie testing and even resting those who would otherwise play. But at least the rules are the real rules.

As someone pointed out, all the losers over the weekend finished higher last year than the teams that beat them. The cynics or realists among us would see this as those teams deciding, being nearer to their "window of opportunity," to now concentrate on their respective game plans unimpeded by the quaintness of the NAB Cup rules.

The remaining NABBERS can now set their sights on some March glory which by the end of April has been largely forgotten, and follow it up with some fine-tuning of a game plan, aspects of which will have been out of date by up to a month.

I wasn't concerned about the "run and carry" so much as the lack of forward line and the lack of direct play.

There were times when there was a throw-in on the wing and Melbourne had no forward line. If Melbourne won the clearance what were their options? You can't kick goals without forwards.

Also, there were two occasions when Green had the ball on the half forward flank. The first time he chipped it sideways and then other players chipped around the forward 50 line before it was turned over and in that time the ball was kicked four or five times for no positional gain. Moreover, the Hawthorn players had time to get back, man-up and fill in any gaps with very little pressure.

The second time Green had the ball in a similar position, however this time he kicked it straight into the forward line (putting the Hawk's defenders under much greater pressure than before) from memory the ball game to ground (and that's all it has to do in that situation for something to happen) and Melbourne then kicked a goal soon after as a result.

I'm not totally against the "run and carry" option and it can be very effective. But the impression I got was that Melbourne players were looking to run and carry all the time when a simple long kick was clearly the best option.

Use “run and carry” when it is the best option at that particular moment.

Use (for example) the “kick the f***ing thing” when that is the best option at that particular moment.

To summarize, it was not the gameplan that let us down, it was our fitness.

Wasn't that our problem last year?

Yes, the proper season doesn't start for another few weeks but why hasn't this "we ran out of legs" problem been fixed?

Hawthorn are focusing on the NAB GF. We are focusing on the one in September. They are a month ahead of us in preparation.

What are you basing that on?

I say when you have Neitz one out against Zac Dawson kick it to him asap.

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere on this site, but are practice games subjected to the same zany rules (ie. 9-pointers) as the NAB cup, or will we get a more realistic match simulation?

I spoke with one of the players today and he told me that the rules are the fair dinkum rules that apply during the regular season.

Yes, the proper season doesn't start for another few weeks but why hasn't this "we ran out of legs" problem been fixed?

If you have a look at the players we had in our midfield rotation, versus the players Hawthorn had in theirs, you might be able to answer your own question.

Green, Bruce, McDonald, Jones and Godfrey were the only bona fide mids we had in the squad. The rest were kids (and Jones is still a kid). Bring the likes of McLean, Johnstone, Pickett, Sylvia and Moloney into the mix and you'll find the fitness won't be such an issue.

Conversely, Hawthorn basically had its full midfield mix out there (I can't recall seeing Vandenberg, but he's the only one).