Finals Week 3

[Tim 3,472]

4 minutes ago, dieter said:

They are not a 'team'. They are a concoction bought by the mighty buck. 

Sure. 

I crave in my "team" the spirit that lot showed yesterday and over a number of years. The "mighty buck" can't buy that. And speaking about the mighty buck, we'd be up that creek without a paddle if we hadn't had significant injections of that commodity from the same place that the Giants get it. They've used it well, better than we have, and have built something that has respect from many.

But you stick with your narrative, I'm sure you enjoy it. 

[PaulRB 6,411]

1 hour ago, DubDee said:

So 3rd Vs 6th in the GF. 

The advantage of finishing in top 4 and especially top 2 seems to have diminished greatly due to the bye. Amazing impact really. 

Scrap the bye I say. There should be proper reward for finishing top 2. The most important thing at the moment is being form at the right time not being the best team for the year

You've a short memory Dub, last year we got pumped by the Weagles out West because they finished higher, the advantage is still well and truely there...

 

[rjay 25,088]

8 hours ago, Macca said:

Other clubs like Hawthorn,  Collingwood,  Richmond & Geelong trade for real talent.  And they play finals.

 

'Macca', the Hawthorn & Geelong flags were built on the back of the draft.

That's where their real talent came from.

The last Collingwood one was on the back of the draft as was the WC flag.

This Richmond one may be the first you could argue was built on trade/FA...

...but even the backbone of the Richmond team is built on the draft.

Both Geelong and Hawthorn have tried to trade into a flag as their great teams aged but so far have had limited success and no flag to show.

I reckon we went a year early on trading talent with Lever and should have gone back to the draft, we over rated the list.

We will end up a middle rung team around where Hawthorn/Geelong are now at best unless we can bring in some real talent with this draft along with some FA's...and the odd good trade.

[Macca 17,032]

10 hours ago, rjay said:

'Macca', the Hawthorn & Geelong flags were built on the back of the draft.

 

Yeah I know ... you're not telling me anything I don't already know

Equally,  any number of flags could have been built in the back of trading primarily

But it has never been tried has it?

Same as 3 hour version of cricket was never tried until 10 or 15 years ago.  Another winner.  And you don't have to like t20 either.

You're another one who has an unhealthy obsessing with drafting.  You know about all its pitfalls but you won't try anything different.  It isn't about development either - another cop out.  Stars are born.  So you trade for them. 

There's no getting through to you either.  You've bought into a flawed scheme and it's time to sell rjay.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Macca

[Macca 17,032]

10 hours ago, rjay said:

'Macca', the Hawthorn & Geelong flags were built on the back of the draft.

That's where their real talent came from.

The last Collingwood one was on the back of the draft as was the WC flag.

This Richmond one may be the first you could argue was built on trade/FA...

...but even the backbone of the Richmond team is built on the draft.

Both Geelong and Hawthorn have tried to trade into a flag as their great teams aged but so far have had limited success and no flag to show.

I reckon we went a year early on trading talent with Lever and should have gone back to the draft, we over rated the list.

We will end up a middle rung team around where Hawthorn/Geelong are now at best unless we can bring in some real talent with this draft along with some FA's...and the odd good trade.

By the way,  the club is doing what I am advocating so take it up with the club if you have issues

May & Lever came for 3 first round picks whilst Melksham,  Frost & Hibberd all came for 2nd rounders.

Your way means probable/possible busts or you have to wait 3 - 5 years for the draftee to mature.  And you may well get Toumpas or Morton. 

My way sees the traded player (for picks) slot straight in to being one of our best players. 

And my view has been a consistent one for decades.  Should I post up that thread I started up about drafting results from a broad perspective?  No,  you don't want to know about it.

The club changed tack - well done MFC.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Macca

[Dee Zephyr 19,268]

Even one of my little ones is getting in on the fun. She told me fans attending the GF will have to pack their own lunch for the game as there won’t be any Pies there.

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

14 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Even one of my little ones is getting in on the fun. She told me fans attending the GF will have to pack their own lunch for the game as there won’t be any Pies there.

Dont be mean.....losing a Prelim and a Granny by less than 2 kicks in 12 months....(thats gotta hurt)......yep, there definitely wont be any pies there......

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Wadda We Sing

[Sir Why You Little 37,127]

10 minutes ago, Wadda We Sing said:

Dont be mean.....losing a Prelim and a Granny by less than 2 kicks in 12 months....(thats gotta hurt)......yep, there definitely wont be any pies there......

 

 

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

24 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Even one of my little ones is getting in on the fun. She told me fans attending the GF will have to pack their own lunch for the game as there won’t be any Pies there.

It's never too early to encourage a healthy hatred of Collingwood.

[rjay 25,088]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

Yeah I know ... you're not telling me anything I don't already know

Equally,  any number of flags could have been built in the back of trading primarily

But it has never been tried has it?

Same as 3 hour version of cricket was never tried until 10 or 15 years ago.  Another winner.  And you don't have to like t20 either.

You're another one who has an unhealthy obsessing with drafting.  You know about all its pitfalls but you won't try anything different.  It isn't about development either - another cop out.  Stars are born.  So you trade for them. 

There's no getting through to you either.  You've bought into a flawed scheme and it's time to sell rjay.

 

1 hour ago, Macca said:

By the way,  the club is doing what I am advocating so take it up with the club if you have issues

May & Lever came for 3 first round picks whilst Melksham,  Frost & Hibberd all came for 2nd rounders.

Your way means probable/possible busts or you have to wait 3 - 5 years for the draftee to mature.  And you may well get Toumpas or Morton. 

My way sees the traded player (for picks) slot straight in to being one of our best players. 

And my view has been a consistent one for decades.  Should I post up that thread I started up about drafting results from a broad perspective?  No,  you don't want to know about it.

The club changed tack - well done MFC.

Hang on there big fella....

I think you're jumping the gun a bit on the my way, or unhealthy obsession or don't want to know about it.

As I pointed out the Richmond flag if they get it this year may be the first of the real traded flags.

As far as waiting for a player to mature, some come in and have an immediate effect some take longer.

Some traded players like Lever & May get injured and take a year or 2 to settle also.

A lot of luck goes into trade as well as the draft.

Nothing is right or wrong.

...but I do think you get your base talent from the draft then add to that with FA and trade.

[Macca 17,032]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

 

Hang on there big fella....

I think you're jumping the gun a bit on the my way, or unhealthy obsession or don't want to know about it.

As I pointed out the Richmond flag if they get it this year may be the first of the real traded flags.

As far as waiting for a player to mature, some come in and have an immediate effect some take longer.

Some traded players like Lever & May get injured and take a year or 2 to settle also.

A lot of luck goes into trade as well as the draft.

Nothing is right or wrong.

...but I do think you get your base talent from the draft then add to that with FA and trade.

And I reckon you can easily get your base talemt from trading (primarily)

And we're currently sitting at half and half after going all-in on drafting (which failed spectacularly)

My way is the safer route ... yours is high risk. 

Are you not in the least bit sceptical with drafting?  It seems the club is because we're now trading for talent.  Agree with the club taking a different tack like you did when we were all in with drafting?

Edited September 23, 2019 by Macca

[old55 23,687]

I love Brodie Grundy as player and man (he came across very impressively in the recent ABC doco on the 2018 Collingwood season). I'm on record rating him a superior player and more valuable than Max, which is saying something.

But he won't look back on his PF performance fondly. Despite dominating Mumford all game he failed to get connection with his talented midfield.  I think Max would have mixed up his tap zones much more. Brodie just seemed to drop it in close every time and it wasn't working.

His last 2 minutes were particularly poor.  He had an uncharacteristic ground ball fumble and lost the ruck contests 3-4 to Mummy in a concentrated stoppage battle.

https://www.afl.com.au/video/featured-programs/last-two-minutes

[Macca 17,032]

If the Tigers win their 2nd flag in 3 years they should put up a statue of Jordan McMahon outside of the Punt Rd oval.

 

[rjay 25,088]

8 hours ago, Macca said:

And I reckon you can easily get your base talemt from trading (primarily)

 

This is the one thing I don't agree with you on 'Macca'...

The way the draft and salary cap is set it's definitely not easy to get your base talent from trading.

In fact I would say it's impossible with the current rules.

No one said there wasn't luck involved but you need to draft well and have a reasonable hit rate.

Father/son picks also don't hurt.

[Macca 17,032]

Just now, rjay said:

This is the one thing I don't agree with you on 'Macca'...

The way the draft and salary cap is set it's definitely not easy to get your base talent from trading.

In fact I would say it's impossible with the current rules.

No one said there wasn't luck involved but you need to draft well and have a reasonable hit rate.

Father/son picks also don't hurt.

I will give you an example then ... just remember that all things are possible whilst draft picks are valued as they are (too high in my opinion but it is what it is)

Lets just say that our club wanted to bring in 1 A grade player every year as well as 1 B+grade player.  All on the young side too ... 21 to 24 years old.

As well as drafting at least 3 players because they are the rules.

The bits and pieces players swapped around by all the clubs are add-ons and you might unearth the odd gem.  And that can be 3-6 players at most or all of the clubs.  The list cloggers but again,  it is what it is.

Elite players are really tough to get but have we ever drafted one? Maybe Gawn?  All time great status though.  League standard not club standard.

So lets get to work ...

There's free agency where you play the long game whilst always making sure you've got salary cap space if you land a big fish.  But there's always a few on offer and we might even land Tomlinson & Elliot this off-season.

Then there are the players we have listed who are surplus to needs or others who have some currency.  So you clear the decks whilst hopefully picking up a couple of 2nd round picks and a couple of 3rd round picks. 

In effect,  you can end up with at least 1 first round pick,  3 x 2nd round picks & 3 x 3rd round picks.  It might even be better than that.  But you can't be afraid of making tough decisions - to get better. 

So you've then got the currency in draft picks to attain that A grade player and the B+ player.  Plus,  you might unearth a gem with your remaining draft picks. Any number of great players have been drafted past the 2nd round.

Bundle the picks up whichever way you can to get the players that you want.

And then do that every year.

Before you know it,  you've built another base to replace the base that constantly needs to be built upon.

Built with traded-for talent.