Daniel Hayes

[dazzledavey36 48,714]

Whats everyones thought on this kid? hows he training at the moment and also just wanted to know does anyone reckon he could surprise everyone and do a Aaron Davey or just go through the year like another ex rookie in Joel Cambell? i think if davey takes him under his wing he could just ( as we pray) turn out like davey? well im looking forward to this kid developing andhopefully one day see him running around in the red and blue

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

On a similar subject, since I saw the other A. Davey tear it up in the SANFL finals last year, I always held out hope that we'd pick him up (despite the fact that with THE A. Davey in the side, it was questionable whether or not we had room for another).

I'm certain that with the benefit of hindsight, the Aaron we all know now would have been picked up in the REAL draft in his year (or before) and would have gone as high as top 10. As a direct result of his effect on the AFL and his reputation as it is, his brother has now been taken almost in the second round of a superdraft.

So now I'm fascinated by this scenario involving 3 players, and their recruitment history.

First of all, how will Davey be regarded in the all-important years between 25-30?

How will Alwyn's first 3 years compare to that of Aaron?

Will Alwyn create a similar effect for the bombers, becoming an overnight cult figure?

Who, out of the these two players will be regarded as the best, and as a result will MFC be criticised for not picking him up as a rookie when we had the chance?

And the most important questions as far as I'm concerned...

Will taking Hayes as a rookie make a difference to the senior list at MFC? If and when he plays, will he be as effective, or more effective than Alwyn? If he is, will CAC get the credit for promoting the choice of the better player over the brother of an MFC star?

Like I said, I loved the idea of having the Davey brothers in a team, but I would have been worried about any demons side with 2 tiny players like that in the forward line who are so hopelessly outmatched in contested marking situations. Recruiting a similar player, who is slightly taller and apparently can mark, but giving him time on the rookie list is the best of both worlds. It freed us up to recruit Petterd who is likely to play games this year, and we still get the opportunity to promote another lightning quick left footed goal-sneak. If he turns out to be the next Farmer, or even half as good, it'll be another feather in CAC's cap.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

As a direct result of his effect on the AFL and his reputation as it is, his brother has now been taken almost in the second round of a superdraft.

If that was actually the criteria for the selection of Alwyn Davey then the team that took him are complete fools.

Players should be selected on their merits not just because of family connections.

Until I can establish that Alwyn Davey is in his right capable of playing AFL footballer I am not so sure I would want him.

FWIW, in the 1970's I wanted Tom Flower to be in the same side as Robbie Flower. There was one problem though. Tom was not good enough.

Notwithstanding his skilful cameos, until Aaron Davey can show that he has maturity and capacity to withstand finals pressure and perform in September he will never be star some have labelled him. He has the potential to do it in September and could be the spark to lift the side during the course of the game. However, his performance in the 2006 finals was poor.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

And the most important questions as far as I'm concerned...

Will taking Hayes as a rookie make a difference to the senior list at MFC? If and when he plays, will he be as effective, or more effective than Alwyn? If he is, will CAC get the credit for promoting the choice of the better player over the brother of an MFC star?

Only if Hayes can show he can cut it at AFL level. Some rookies make it, many dont. I hope he succeeds but its no certainty.

Who said Alwyn is going to make it? Both Hayes and Alwyn D may not make the grade. So the question is peripheral at best.

CAC will get credit for recruiting a good player. I would be seriously worried if being "the brother of an MFC "star"" is a serious criteria above the basic attributes to play the game.

[Yze_Magic 3]

I know nothing about Hayes, so maybe someone could fill me in

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

If that was actually the criteria for the selection of Alwyn Davey then the team that took him are complete fools.

Players should be selected on their merits not just because of family connections.

Notwithstanding his skilful cameos, until Aaron Davey can show that he has maturity and capacity to withstand finals pressure and perform in September he will never be star some have labelled him. He has the potential to do it in September and could be the spark to lift the side during the course of the game. However, his performance in the 2006 finals was poor.

I remember ND was interviewed on WLF (RIP) about Davey after his first or second year. They asked why everyone (including the demons) overlooked him in the Draft right up until the end of the rookie draft, and he said flatly "because Leon Davis had a bad Grand Final." It's widely regarded that at the time, tiny aboriginal goal-sneaks were a risk as they weren't strong enough physically to handle the rough stuff in the bigger games and finals. So far, as you point out, that assumption has been proven largely correct (however his recruitment and promotion can hardly be called a mistake. As you say, he COULD have an effect on finals, just hasn't yet). Oh, and for the record, I've only ever claimed Aaron is a star of MFC so far. I think he's on the way to being an AFL star, but is a ways off it just yet.

If it weren't for the extraordinarily exciting form of Aaron (having come from nowhere), would Alwyn, or any other tiny quick players have been recruited for such a high price? My assertion that Alwyn was recruited as a direct result of Aaron's form suggested more that the league has stood up and taken notice of the brilliance of smaller players (particularly the Davey family). I think it's fair enough to suggest that there are 16 AFL teams that Aaron would walk into (maybe 14 if we're being pedantic). Any coach would love to have another Davey clone in their side, and from what I saw of how he played in the SANFL, there is little difference on the surface between the two in the way they play the game. Perhaps the dons' recruiters felt that the next Davey IS the next Davey.

CAC will get credit for recruiting a good player. I would be seriously worried if being "the brother of an MFC "star"" is a serious criteria above the basic attributes to play the game.

Of course. No-one said this Davey vs Hayes vs Davey thing was of any HUGE improtance. What I love is that, assuming that Alwyn plays some games this year, Essendon and demons fans are going to have a sensational rivalry going regarding who is the better Davey. From what I've heard, the dons have played an intra-club and Alwyn kicked 3 goals. He's also been recruited later than your usual 18-year-olds having played some senior footy, which makes him more likely to play games immediately, and his side is in desperate need of quality, quick players. It's as likely as not that he'll play 22.

For the record, I'm entirely sceptical about a player who has a reputation as having attitude problems and is so small. Not only this, but he's a rookie, which means to play he needs someone else to get injured, and worst of all, he's competing with Davey and Byron for a role in the side. I'm not sure if he's going to be on the list for a mandatory one year or two, as I don't know if he's an interstater. But like you say RR, all the above is only ASSUMING that all 3 play games. You'd suggest being taken at pick 36 means Alwyn will be given every opportunity, especially in such a slow/average side. But who knows? I don't hold any HUGE hopes for Hayes, certainly not ahead of guys like Hughes and Neaves, who's bandwagons I'm RIGHT on.

It's still fun to compare. Especially if you've got lots of spare time like me...

[Sleeve 67]

I remember ND was interviewed on WLF (RIP) about Davey after his first or second year. They asked why everyone (including the demons) overlooked him in the Draft right up until the end of the rookie draft, and he said flatly "because Leon Davis had a bad Grand Final." It's widely regarded that at the time, tiny aboriginal goal-sneaks were a risk as they weren't strong enough physically to handle the rough stuff in the bigger games and finals. So far, as you point out, that assumption has been proven largely correct (however his recruitment and promotion can hardly be called a mistake. As you say, he COULD have an effect on finals, just hasn't yet). Oh, and for the record, I've only ever claimed Aaron is a star of MFC so far. I think he's on the way to being an AFL star, but is a ways off it just yet.

If it weren't for the extraordinarily exciting form of Aaron (having come from nowhere), would Alwyn, or any other tiny quick players have been recruited for such a high price? My assertion that Alwyn was recruited as a direct result of Aaron's form suggested more that the league has stood up and taken notice of the brilliance of smaller players (particularly the Davey family). I think it's fair enough to suggest that there are 16 AFL teams that Aaron would walk into (maybe 14 if we're being pedantic). Any coach would love to have another Davey clone in their side, and from what I saw of how he played in the SANFL, there is little difference on the surface between the two in the way they play the game. Perhaps the dons' recruiters felt that the next Davey IS the next Davey.

Of course. No-one said this Davey vs Hayes vs Davey thing was of any HUGE improtance. What I love is that, assuming that Alwyn plays some games this year, Essendon and demons fans are going to have a sensational rivalry going regarding who is the better Davey. From what I've heard, the dons have played an intra-club and Alwyn kicked 3 goals. He's also been recruited later than your usual 18-year-olds having played some senior footy, which makes him more likely to play games immediately, and his side is in desperate need of quality, quick players. It's as likely as not that he'll play 22.

For the record, I'm entirely sceptical about a player who has a reputation as having attitude problems and is so small. Not only this, but he's a rookie, which means to play he needs someone else to get injured, and worst of all, he's competing with Davey and Byron for a role in the side. I'm not sure if he's going to be on the list for a mandatory one year or two, as I don't know if he's an interstater. But like you say RR, all the above is only ASSUMING that all 3 play games. You'd suggest being taken at pick 36 means Alwyn will be given every opportunity, especially in such a slow/average side. But who knows? I don't hold any HUGE hopes for Hayes, certainly not ahead of guys like Hughes and Neaves, who's bandwagons I'm RIGHT on.

It's still fun to compare. Especially if you've got lots of spare time like me...

Alwyn did indeed play a practise match and kick 3, he also kicked 3 behinds.

A close friend of mine who witnessed the game commented that Alwyn had all the attributes of his brother but tended to have a better attack on the football than that of his brother.

I personally cannot comment but this gentleman is rather astute so I'm willing to go with it until I personally view otherwise.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

It's still fun to compare. Especially if you've got lots of spare time like me...

Too much time.

In regard to your comments:

1. ND's Leon Davis comment was typical dry ND humour and you would be amiss to attribute any more to it than that. It was not a general comment about aboriginal players. Leon Davis failed because Leon Davis is a limited footballer whose skill set is shown up in finals. Michael Long makes that assumption pure folly. My comments on Aaron Davey were from pure observation. I would make the comment about Bruce as well. Its not a generalisation about Aboriginals. Light bodied players will often struggle in finals. Davey has. However I think he can overcome that but gee he would have to play well with the other parts of his game.

2. Alwyn Davey was recruited because Alwyn Davey impressed a side. Its garbage to think he picked on Aaron's shirt tail.

3. How would you know what Don's recruiter's were thinking when they recruited Alwyn?

4. Before you go to far,Alwyn Davey has to cut it at AFL level. Any comparison with Aaron is highly uneven in a players first or second season.

5. I would be skeptical of a player who had an attitude problem either tall or small. Its interesting though you can gush over one player who has not played an AFL football but has a brother that has made it while you are critical of player you havent seen. Hayes wont play this year. So by the time he is say in 2 to 3 years, Pickett will have retired. And given Hayes's size he is unlikely to compete directly with Neaves and Hughes.

6. 3 goals in an intraclub is no where near AFL. Its like win a Bendigo heat race and talking up a horse's Melb Cup chances.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Too much time.

In regard to your comments:

1. ND's Leon Davis comment was typical dry ND humour and you would be amiss to attribute any more to it than that. It was not a general comment about aboriginal players. Leon Davis failed because Leon Davis is a limited footballer whose skill set is shown up in finals. Michael Long makes that assumption pure folly. My comments on Aaron Davey were from pure observation. I would make the comment about Bruce as well. Its not a generalisation about Aboriginals. Light bodied players will often struggle in finals. Davey has. However I think he can overcome that but gee he would have to play well with the other parts of his game.

2. Alwyn Davey was recruited because Alwyn Davey impressed a side. Its garbage to think he picked on Aaron's shirt tail.

3. How would you know what Don's recruiter's were thinking when they recruited Alwyn?

4. Before you go to far,Alwyn Davey has to cut it at AFL level. Any comparison with Aaron is highly uneven in a players first or second season.

5. I would be skeptical of a player who had an attitude problem either tall or small. Its interesting though you can gush over one player who has not played an AFL football but has a brother that has made it while you are critical of player you havent seen. Hayes wont play this year. So by the time he is say in 2 to 3 years, Pickett will have retired. And given Hayes's size he is unlikely to compete directly with Neaves and Hughes.

6. 3 goals in an intraclub is no where near AFL. Its like win a Bendigo heat race and talking up a horse's Melb Cup chances.

Too much time? Unemployment will do that to you cobber. If only I could do THIS for a living.

1. If what we are both recalling was in fact the same episode of WLF with the same questions asked, then I am afraid I wholly disagree with you there. My recollection is that he was asked, answered the question flatly, and when Grybas (assuming it was him, but whoever the host was on that day) pursued it with a serious tone as to get a real answer, ND further stressed the point. Had he been joking, he would have brushed the comment aside, but like I say, my recollection of the episode is that he cuoldn't stress the point enough that Davey WAS overlooked simply on the basis of Davis's Grand Final. For the record, I don't know if I necessarily agree with that assertion. You're right that it seems ridiculous on the surface, but I'm a firm believer that recruitment can be efected by the form of single players, or a group of a certain "type" of player. Or what's "in vogue" if you like. What with all the rule changes, recruiters must be taking it year by year to decide what KIND of players most suit their side when rebuilding.

2. Correct. As EVERY player is selected. My point is that had it not been for Aaron playing as well as he has from relative obscurity, Alwyn may well have found himself in the same position Aaron was in, only a few years later. Also, I reckon you're being very absolute (as you are wont to do) in this area. I wonder, have you seen him play either in person or on footage? If not, I hope you belileve me when I say it's downright spooky how similar they are. If it weren't for the Panthers uniform, I could have sworn I was watching Aaron go about his business. And I'm not just talking about his gait or kicking style. I found it really difficult to figure out what was different about watching either guy play. Now don't get me wrong, I'm like you in that I won't believe a player has got what it takes until I've seen him do it in the flesh. But in that sense, even the Gibbs type players still have a lot to prove to me. EVERY recruitment is speculative if you want to think about it. What makes this case different is that there's a clone of Aaron Davey running around. Let me stress that. CLONE. Any reservations a recruiter would have about his size or suitability to AFL footy can be at least partly assuaged by looking at how a player of EXACTLY the same type goes about it, and most importantly how unique, even in the AFL, that player is. Like you say, it's still no proof that he'll take the next step, but it's as good a proof as you get from most recruits. You could argue better than most.

3. Mate, no-one's saying they KNOW what's going on in the don's recruiters' heads. I said "perhaps." It's a possible scenario to ponder, not an iron-clad assertion.

4. On this we agree. For all my postulating about how similar they are, I'm certain it'll be different for him when/if he finally gets to play.

5. Gushing? Yes he's not played AFl footy, but he's played in senior finals, and regardless of the opposition, he looked alright on his own with the pill. All I'm saying RR is that he HAS impressed me enough as a prospect only. Fair enough isn't it? I won't pass judgement on Hayes until I see him with a footy in his hands in a match, be it VFL or ressies, and even then I'll apply the same criteria for rating as I do ANYONE. I "gush" about Alwyn, Hughes and Neaves because I've had a taste. If I see Hayes have a blinder the first time he plays, then I'll more than likely gush about him too. BTW, I'm sorry about that, I never meant to compare Neaves and Hughes to Hayes. I only meant to raise the point that both are rookies who've shown a bit. Oh, and would you say Hayes would at least compete with Hughes as a pocket? Yes they're different, (Hughes has played well as a rebounding defender) but personally I've kind of had Hughes in the FP role in a few years (assuming he's up to it). I suppose it's fair enough to suggest there's room for both. But I dunno, Pickett is right for 2007 and likely 2008 (assuming nothing goes horribly wrong). Hayes has 1, maybe 2 years to impress, and if he doesn't, what have we lost? Another rookie? Many fall by the wayside. Not saying it can't happen, or that it's likely not to, but I don't reckon it's too hard to suggest Pickett and Davey will be in the 22 at least until the end of 2008. Having said that, I'll concede the point as we have few full time FPs following them (Motlop in late 2006?).

6. Not only that, but it was 3 goals in an ESSENDON intra-club. Fair enough point there. But what that performance will do is most likely give us a chance to see him in action come round one of the NAB (assuming it's televised). And hey, with a bit of luck they might win, we might get over the Hawks and then we may REALLY see some sort of comparison, albeit in a pre-season nothing comp. Having said that we all remember the indelible effect Aaron had on us after just a few NAB cup games, or Wizard games, or whatever...

Sorry for the long post (again). I suspect that, as per usual, I've changed nothing about your thoughts on the subject, and vice versa. I'm happy to leave it there if you are. I'm sure everyone's twice as bored with this as we are.

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,142]

17 year olds can't be drafted as rookies.

Therefore is it true that if Weetra was 18 and Hayes was 17, then Hayes would've been selected in the National draft and eligible to play games while Weetra would've been selected as a rookie. I think I heard CAC say something like this on Demonland.

As it turned out Weetra was 17 at the time and had to be selected in the national draft.

On Aaron Davey, I think too many around here are a little harsh on him, due to his finals performances. Remember you have to play 22 games to get into the finals, and his 3 regular seasons have been first class. Sure he's had 3 poor finals (Ess, Geel and St.Kilda) but he was much improved in the Semi final V Freo and kicked an inspiring goal from the boundary in the second qtr as we charged towards a 16 point lead in the second qtr.

A strong finals performances would simply be the icing on the cake for Davey. I'm sure 15 other clubs could only dream about having Davey on their list. We're lucky to have him IMO.

[s-t-i-n-g-a 439]

Any chance we could get some info on Hayes???

How has he been training, does he "move well", hit targets, good skills???

There are some question marks over his attitude. Does he apply himself at training??