5 hours ago, bing181 said:

I believe that what they were talking about is the Ball Movements stat developed by Champion Data (Ball Movement Equity or BME) which measures not just possessions but chains of possessions. It's not about speed of ball movement at all, and I'm unaware of a stat that measures speed of ball movement.

My layman's understanding is that BME is about ability to hold on to the ball through chains of possessions, to keep possession. 

More specifically chains of possessions from D50 to F50 from memory (haven't read the Prospectus since preseason). So turnovers and poor contested marking are what hurt, not slow players.

Edited August 31, 20178 yr by Dr. Gonzo

5 hours ago, bing181 said:

I believe that what they were talking about is the Ball Movements stat developed by Champion Data (Ball Movement Equity or BME) which measures not just possessions but chains of possessions. It's not about speed of ball movement at all, and I'm unaware of a stat that measures speed of ball movement.

My layman's understanding is that BME is about ability to hold on to the ball through chains of possessions, to keep possession. 

Thanks Bing.

i was going to ask how ball movement speed was measured.

There are so many different ways I can think of to measure ball movement speed you would need to know the perameters to getting any meaning from it.

What you say makes a lot more sense.

I remember this. Love the opening line.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.theroar.com.au/2017/05/10/the-shoulda-coulda-woulda-melbourne-demons-could-be-the-afls-2017-what-if/amp/

Edited August 31, 20178 yr by Demon77

It's pretty bloody obvious.

We look to play-on (usually through handball) all the time which is a very quick way of moving the ball but if we are unable to do this then we get stuck.  

This is partly because we are so slow at getting back behind the mark allowing us to kick the ball quickly and partly because we have so many players behind and around the ball that we have no one forward of the ball to kick it to.

 

 

10 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Stats hmm

Won 4th most qtrs...fin 9th

Slowest ball movement. ..fin 9th

Im sure there's any number of 'wonderful' stats out there that many will pore over. ....we finished 9th

Missed 8 by smallest % ever... finished 9

Worst coversion inside 50 last 6 games..... finished 9th

See a trend here ?

are you saying we're turning into Richmond???? Yikes !!!!

8 hours ago, DemonAndrew said:

Lewis is integral to our ball movement as he hits targets by foot, unlike many of his teammates

That's actually been the problem, his kicking has been woeful for us.

6 hours ago, bing181 said:

I believe that what they were talking about is the Ball Movements stat developed by Champion Data (Ball Movement Equity or BME) which measures not just possessions but chains of possessions. It's not about speed of ball movement at all, and I'm unaware of a stat that measures speed of ball movement.

My layman's understanding is that BME is about ability to hold on to the ball through chains of possessions, to keep possession. 

Surely it means number of possessions for an i50?

9 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

We actually kick the ball a lot. Especially from the backline. Changing angles with kick mark spin inside, kick mark spin. I have no problem with this method. Although it does reflect a lack of outside run. 

We handball like crazy from stoppages and refuse to kick blindly forward. Again, inability to actually get these handballs moving forward with momentum is more of an issue than needing to blindly kick.

We also finish well inside 50 with goals. We don't kick a lot of points. And at the other end our opponents don't because we have an open backline.

There's things I want to change in our game plan:
- Defenders to learn when to stick back and not blindly rush up. Assertive zone defending does mean running 30m forward when you could wait back and have a midfield close on the guy with the ball
- Forwards getting the balance between leading up and back right
- Mids getting handballs going to the outside by taking the receive on the move

 

But I don't particularly think we have any issues with the pace of our ball movement. Fitter players with more spread and bit more pace outside sure, but I wouldn't undo all the work that's gone in to a style.

 

 

 

Some really good points.i agree wirh your comments about our defenders sometimes pushing up too high, though i wonder if sometimes a factor is the mids and forwards not working hard enough defensively.

I also think we missed frostys speed in being able to get back. 

I suspect that a big factor in the slow ball movement stat is that our game plan involves crossing back and forth across the ground until we can create some space and free players and then going quick. The tigers do the same so id be curious where rhey are with that stat

7 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

That's actually been the problem, his kicking has been woeful for us.

I wonder about that.  Could it be that our players aren't in the position they are supposed to be.  Hawthorn were brilliant at making position and it looked easy. 

Sometimes it his kicking but often I think it is because our players are not disciplined enough or work hard enough to get to the designated spot and keep the space open and it looks like the kicker's problem.

9 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

That's actually been the problem, his kicking has been woeful for us.

Lewis hasn't been perfect and had some howlers (as all players do), but in general I think he was willing to pull the trigger on quick 25-35 metre kicks to move forward and hit the target on the vast majority of them.

The real issue is that the difference between our best and worst ball movement is too big.  When we are on and we get it into the hands of the right people we would be in the top 6 in the comp.When the first kick or handball doesn't release someone we would typically have 5 or 6 extra possessions to get it clear.  By then the options downfield are minimal.  Both Oliver and Jones need to kick it more often

19 hours ago, Lampers said:

Lewis hasn't been perfect and had some howlers (as all players do), but in general I think he was willing to pull the trigger on quick 25-35 metre kicks to move forward and hit the target on the vast majority of them.

Agree.

 

But sometimes, the ultra safe (95/5) 25-35 metre kick, versus a player that can go for a relatively safe (85/15) 45 metre kick to advantage; is better for ball movement speed, territory-wise and surely % conversion inside 50.

 

 

As an aside, interesting article in The Age today comparing 2000-2016 flag teams on several stats.  How the hell Sydney won in 2005 is beyond me. 

 

8 minutes ago, TGR said:

Agree.

But sometimes, the ultra safe (95/5) 25-35 metre kick, versus a player that can go for a relatively safe (85/15) 45 metre kick to advantage; is better for ball movement speed, territory-wise and surely % conversion inside 50.

As an aside, interesting article in The Age today comparing 2000-2016 flag teams on several stats.  How the hell Sydney won in 2005 is beyond me. 

In 2005 Sydney had a very settled team. Not one change between round 15 and the GF. Absolutely amazing stat.

4 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

In 2005 Sydney had a very settled team. Not one change between round 15 and the GF. Absolutely amazing stat.

Lucky Barry Hall got off his McGuire punch then...

On 8/31/2017 at 11:04 PM, DeeSpencer said:

We actually kick the ball a lot. Especially from the backline. Changing angles with kick mark spin inside, kick mark spin. I have no problem with this method. Although it does reflect a lack of outside run. 

We handball like crazy from stoppages and refuse to kick blindly forward. Again, inability to actually get these handballs moving forward with momentum is more of an issue than needing to blindly kick.

We also finish well inside 50 with goals. We don't kick a lot of points. And at the other end our opponents don't because we have an open backline.

There's things I want to change in our game plan:
- Defenders to learn when to stick back and not blindly rush up. Assertive zone defending does mean running 30m forward when you could wait back and have a midfield close on the guy with the ball
- Forwards getting the balance between leading up and back right
- Mids getting handballs going to the outside by taking the receive on the move

 

But I don't particularly think we have any issues with the pace of our ball movement. Fitter players with more spread and bit more pace outside sure, but I wouldn't undo all the work that's gone in to a style.

You are wrong on two key points:

In the last 6 weeks we were last for i50 efficency. ie Scoring.

"Pace of ball movement" we are 18th in the AFL as measured by C/Data. No idea how it is measured.

 

Edited September 2, 20178 yr by jnrmac

On 8/31/2017 at 11:26 PM, TGR said:

We/Roos and to a lesser extent Goody built this list.  We had a choice, and we chose a one-paced one-geared rotating midfield.  We chose Vince.  We chose Salem.  We chose Tyson.  We chose Trenners.  We chose Trac (who will be a star).  We chose Oliver (ditto).  We had Jones.  Billy Stretch has speed but hasn't come on.  JKH looks quick, but to me, he is a slow quick.

 

Then for the life of me, we went out and chose Lewis....the biggest crime of all.  History repeating.  We already were overstocked with tractors, and we gleefully accepted a rusty reconditioned one with a 3 year clayton's warranty.

Yeh......but one with brains. Lewis was not the reason  for our failure to finish in finals. In fact without his experience we would have lost a couple more.

As Jack Dyer would say ,the ball travels faster in the air than carrying it. Now we have to upgrade our skills to constructively get it in the air !!!  i.e. Get Dom Tyson, Hunty etc  to Hodgeys kicking coach