The Curnow v Weideman Debate Reprised

[Ouch! 2,263]

For all the people saying that Curnow is going to be a star, and he's better than Weid... I personally think it says more about the respective stages of development at the clubs, Carlton is a couple of years into rebuilding with Bolton as coach, and they have got a pretty ordinary forward line at present. Curnow represents the future and is getting game time and yeah looks ok at the moment.

Weideman is playing in a team pushing for finals, and we aren't giving games to get match experience out. He has been tried a couple of times, but ultimately Pedo, TMac, Hogan and Watts as players are ahead of him as we push towards finals. That gives Weideman time to hone his craft at VFL level, and he looked really solid a few weeks back kicking 5. 

If Weideman was at the blues, I suspect they'd be playing him week in week out, and Curnow would be pushing and fighting for games at our club just like Weid currently is.

It's not a coincidence that most rising star players come out of the developing teams.... 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Ouch!

[monoccular 17,431]

13 minutes ago, Bay Riffin said:

what is a contested mark worth. We won the game on the weekend. Everytime we brinhg the ball to ground I think watch out. When Carlton marked, they went back play stopped a bit and we got back to position.

Our ability to bring the ball to ground correlates with our wins this year, and that requires anticipation and speed.

Remember we have 4 starting midfielders out on Sunday and shouldn't have won that.

I remember the saints had Loewe and Lockett, the two best contested marks in the comp and everyone was certain they would win the premiership. It didn't happen.

 

 

Agree - we set up pretty well most times when they stopped and propped.

Speaking of which our best two stop and prop marks were surely the last two of the game - timed to perfection.  And they chose not to man up on Jordan...then their fans had a bit of a whine about it (at they are prone to do).

[rjay 24,931]

Seems a bit like Josh Kennedy to me...a skinny kid

"In 2006, Kennedy showed promises that he could be a future key-position forward, having made his debut in round six. However, he struggled for ground time and form when playing at the AFL level, scoring only 5.4 from his nine games. In Carlton's VFL-affiliate, the Northern Bullants, he found it easier to show his skills with eighteen goals for the season."

Lets just give him a bit of time...

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

18 minutes ago, Ouch! said:

For all the people saying that Curnow is going to be a star, and he's better than Weid... I personally think it says more about the respective stages of development at the clubs, Carlton is a couple of years into rebuilding with Bolton as coach, and they have got a pretty ordinary forward line at present.

It's based on the fact that Curnow looks like he will be a very good player, irrespective of which team he plays for.

[monoccular 17,431]

37 minutes ago, rjay said:

Seems a bit like Josh Kennedy to me...a skinny kid

"In 2006, Kennedy showed promises that he could be a future key-position forward, having made his debut in round six. However, he struggled for ground time and form when playing at the AFL level, scoring only 5.4 from his nine games. In Carlton's VFL-affiliate, the Northern Bullants, he found it easier to show his skills with eighteen goals for the season."

Lets just give him a bit of time...

I had forgotten when smugly considering that CFC had got rid of Garlett, Betts and Waite that they had also traded the dual Coleman medalist for Chri$$ Judd who they just knew would guarantee them a premiership.

Could have had a fairly reasonable forward line had they hung on to that quartet.

Feel really sorry for their supporters - NOT.

[Ouch! 2,263]

51 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

It's based on the fact that Curnow looks like he will be a very good player, irrespective of which team he plays for.

You don't think that's directly related to the amount of exposure the player gets?
If he was playing at VFL level (due to the club being in a premiership window) would anyone be talking about him, and would he be a candidate for the rising star... the answer is no.
I'm not even talking about whether these players are, will be or should be good players. In most cases players will be exposed to, and have have an accelerated development based on the club and whether the club is putting time into 'playing the kids'. There are some obvious exceptions for exceptionally talented players, but not many first year players play for premiership teams!

Curnow is a promising player, who has had a good month of football.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Ouch!

[old dee 23,792]

What we know is that Curnow will be a good player.

The jury is out on the Weid.

[Demonland 72,216]

The thing about the selection at the time is that Melbourne traded picks because they had certain players in mind for this draft.

As a consequence, they traded for picks 3 and 9 which enabled them to get Clayton Oliver (so far a big tick) and the player who in their view was the next best key position forward after Josh Schache who Brisbane took at pick 2. The Blues went for a kpp as well with the pick after Weideman and ended up with Harry McKay who has yet to play a game so you can make the comparison with him as well if you like.

Everyone seems to be salivating about pick 19 in that draft who was Ryan Burton.

Fact is that Melbourne went for a kpp knowing that they take 3 or 4 years and are rarely overnight successes. They did get one of those with Clarrie.

 

[Fat Tony 5,231]

Weideman has shown enough that he has the talent to be a very good AFL player once he fills out. He was dominant in the VFL against Box Hill earlier this year and has shown some nice things in the AFL.

Still, on the balance of evidence, you would take Curnow now. He looked like a young David Schwarz on Sunday.

[Jaded No More 68,936]

At the end of the day we still won the draft because we got Oliver

 

[old dee 23,792]

20 minutes ago, Jaded said:

At the end of the day we still won the draft because we got Oliver

 

Spot on jaded. If the Weid never plays another game we have done very well from that draft.

[Skuit 10,031]

17 hours ago, Bay Riffin said:

what is a contested mark worth. We won the game on the weekend. Everytime we brinhg the ball to ground I think watch out. When Carlton marked, they went back play stopped a bit and we got back to position.

Our ability to bring the ball to ground correlates with our wins this year, and that requires anticipation and speed.

Remember we have 4 starting midfielders out on Sunday and shouldn't have won that.

I remember the saints had Loewe and Lockett, the two best contested marks in the comp and everyone was certain they would win the premiership. It didn't happen.

 

 

There's some seriously mangled straws here with the strength you've clutched at them.

A contested mark in the forward line guarantees a shot on goal. Curnow and Casboult took 10 of them while Tmac, Hogan and Pedo combined for 3. Weids has taken 5 for his career. It also allows for an easy solution to a flooded forward-half.

A contested mark on the defensive flank means relieving the pressure of a forward press and can open up the opposition behind. Don't know how many Docherty and co. picked up in this regard but it felt like a heap.

On the attacking side, a contested mark on the forward-flank results in a repeat deep forward-50 entry and a disruption to kick-in plans/confidence.

It's not a thread about our wins/losses, but while we may have just beaten Carlton despite our deficiencies, the ultimate difference in our loss to North Melbourne was for this same reason - out-marked in crucial areas of the field.

It's also not a thread about contested marking, but my original point was more along the lines that it's understandable that we look sideways in envy when young players like Curnow come straight in and can impact by taking big, sure-handed grabs.

Weid will come good. In fact, I think he has the tools to become a better contested marker than Hogan.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Skuit

[jackaub 1,402]

15 hours ago, Skuit said:

There's some seriously mangled straws here with the strength you've clutched at them.

A contested mark in the forward line guarantees a shot on goal. Curnow and Casboult took 10 of them while Tmac, Hogan and Pedo combined for 3. Weids has taken 5 for his career. It also allows for an easy solution to a flooded forward-half.

A contested mark on the defensive flank means relieving the pressure of a forward press and can open up the opposition behind. Don't know how many Docherty and co. picked up in this regard but it felt like a heap.

On the attacking side, a contested mark on the forward-flank results in a repeat deep forward-50 entry and a disruption to kick-in plans/confidence.

It's not a thread about our wins/losses, but while we may have just beaten Carlton despite our deficiencies, the ultimate difference in our loss to North Melbourne was for this same reason - out-marked in crucial areas of the field.

It's also not a thread about contested marking, but my original point was more along the lines that it's understandable that we look sideways in envy when young players like Curnow come straight in and can impact by taking big, sure-handed grabs.

Weid will come good. In fact, I think he has the tools to become a better contested marker than Hogan.

We desperately need players to take contested marks.This lack is a glaring hole in the stats and it adds extreme pressure all through the games.I hope Wieds hogan and watts improve in this area at the moment it costs us

Edited July 11, 2017 by jackaub

[TheoX 1,222]

Interesting that Curnow is now 194cm, was 191cm in his draft year. Still happy we took Weid, has shown plenty.

Edited July 12, 2017 by TheoX

[leave it to deever 17,511]

Look at where we are on the ladder. Id say someone is doing a good job when it comes to recruiting.

[old dee 23,792]

2 hours ago, TheoX said:

Interesting that Curnow is now 194cm, was 191cm in his draft year. Still happy we took Weid, has shown plenty.

Don't agree. I  bit at VFL level, bugger all at AFL level.