Frost's Role

[Wrecker45 3,378]

I must admit I have been in the Frost is not a forward camp and a little bit unsure of his role but I have come around.

Teams in recent years have grown accustomed to playing defensive half forward flanks who try and stop the opposition playmakers off the half backline. We are taking it a step further.

Roos has always been a defence first type of coach. He has just adapted now after seeing Hawthorn and West Coast apply massive defensive pressure in their respective forward halfs. The rationale being if you get a turnover in your forward half it is more likely to result in a scoring opportunity. Scoring opportunities create goals which win games. 

It makes sense that we play Frost as a defensive forward but not the traditional type that mans up on a creative playmaker. Frost is just their to create turnovers and play a role in a zone. He has speed, aggression and height which are the perfect attributes to create a turnover in our forward half.

He will frustrate us when he takes a mark inside 50 and sprays it but he is there to create goals not kick them. I also wonder if the new 10m from the mark rule will suit him in that our players might run by for a handball to take the shot at goal instead of him.

 

[mo64 5,881]

We now have a ruckman and midfield that allows us to win our share of contested ball and clearances. In turn, we'll  have our fair share of inside 50's, and we need to convert those chances. If Frost doesn't hit the scoreboard he's a liability, regardless of his defensive pressure. The bare minimum I'd expect from a forward is 20 goals a season, and Frost will never give us that. Why not play a small/medium lead-up forward who can also apply defensive pressure, but can also hit the scoreboard?

Hogan was often double teamed because the opposition give scant respect to Frost. If he goes out on a dummy lead, his opponent is likely to let him go, and zone off on Hogan. 

We need another damaging lead up forward, and I'm hoping Petracca is the answer. Weideman needs at least a year to develop.

Frost to the backline for me.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

12 minutes ago, mo64 said:

We now have a ruckman and midfield that allows us to win our share of contested ball and clearances. In turn, we'll  have our fair share of inside 50's, and we need to convert those chances. If Frost doesn't hit the scoreboard he's a liability, regardless of his defensive pressure. The bare minimum I'd expect from a forward is 20 goals a season, and Frost will never give us that. Why not play a small/medium lead-up forward who can also apply defensive pressure, but can also hit the scoreboard?

Hogan was often double teamed because the opposition give scant respect to Frost. If he goes out on a dummy lead, his opponent is likely to let him go, and zone off on Hogan. 

We need another damaging lead up forward, and I'm hoping Petracca is the answer. Weideman needs at least a year to develop.

Frost to the backline for me.

Because height is important for the zone. You need to do a high hospital kick or handball to get over him. It also means the opposition need to use a tall to defend him even though he is essentially a decoy in our forward movement.

[mo64 5,881]

4 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

Because height is important for the zone. You need to do a high hospital kick or handball to get over him. It also means the opposition need to use a tall to defend him even though he is essentially a decoy in our forward movement.

I disagree. The net benefit of having an efficient dangerous forward far outweighs having a good defensive forward. If Frost was a capable 2nd ruckman, then maybe it's justified, but he's not. I can't think of any other player in the comp playing a similar role who is so impotent offensively.

For mine, the role of Frost has Roos written all over it rather than Goodwin.

 

[stuie 7,374]

Nailed it Wrecker.

Frost is a unique specimen. Big, strong and super quick. He would never survive as a main target who is expected to kick goals, but with Hogan, Watts, Garlett, Kennedy and Kent all around him it doesn't have to be his main focus. The other advantage with his speed is his ability to make space for Hogan, which we saw in the last quarter on Saturday. You can't play a small on him because he will outmark them and be just as quick as them, and most talls will struggle with his speed and pressure. I believe you need to look at the forward line as a whole package rather than player by player and the things Frost brings perfectly compliment our 3 main scorers in Hogan, Garlett and Watts.

I was all about him playing backline last year, but seeing the mix of players this year and the improvement of Watts has meant Frost makes it a dangerous mix.

 

[rpfc 28,832]

I don't care what he gives as a defensive forward - if he continues to flap about in that 50 they way he does - Hogan will kick him out of the team himself.

He needs to work on getting out of the way and keeping his man occupied while the actual forwards do their jobs.

If he does that, then by all means have him as an offensively useless role player in that forwardline...

[jnrmac 20,205]

Frost gives us a lot of flexibility. I wouldnt overlook that. The footy department know what he is tasked with and I guess we will know when he keeps getting selected. Seems like a smart player and his come from behind punch down to Kent for a goal in the 1st was smart football.

It's only his 4th game for us....

 

[Forest Demon 4,681]

People talking about his speed and pressure. He laid 0 tackles, and only had the 7 touches. I don't see how anyone can see the game he had on the weekend as a positive. 

I am not necessarily saying drop him, but it was hardly enough to make me think he will be a permanent fixture in the forward line. He is still learning it, and they will probably persevere with him for a little while. Still waiting and seeing imo.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Forest Demon

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, Forest Demon said:

People talking about his speed and pressure. He laid 0 tackles, and only had the 7 touches. I don't see how anyone can see the game he had on the weekend as a positive. 

We're talking about more than 1 game here FD. You can pull stats out of a random game for anyone and use it to say they're no good at that role.

And that's aside from the fact that the role he's playing forward isn't judged on stats.

Wasn't a great game from him Saturday obviously, but he showed some signs of why he's there and the forward line functioned well with the combo of Frost, Hogan and Watts in the last quarter once Pedo was out of the way.

Look at it as a whole package. not just one player and their stats.

 

[Forest Demon 4,681]

2 minutes ago, stuie said:

We're talking about more than 1 game here FD. You can pull stats out of a random game for anyone and use it to say they're no good at that role.

And that's aside from the fact that the role he's playing forward isn't judged on stats.

Wasn't a great game from him Saturday obviously, but he showed some signs of why he's there and the forward line functioned well with the combo of Frost, Hogan and Watts in the last quarter once Pedo was out of the way.

Look at it as a whole package. not just one player and their stats.

 

Stats from a random game? I could pull the stats from last years games and the pre-season games, and I could guarantee they wouldn't be much better.

I understand why they are persevering with him, and a lot of it is down to some of your points, but I am hardly convinced yet.

[jackaub 1,402]

It was my impression that we had no lead up forwards on Saturday

Our inside 50s' for at least 2 quarters were  high bombs to pack marks made it very easy for Davis etal to defend

It is something all our forwards must learn and our on- ballers' lower their eyes

Edited March 29, 2016 by jackaub

[stuie 7,374]

Just now, Forest Demon said:

Stats from a random game? I could pull the stats from last years games and the pre-season games, and I could guarantee they wouldn't be much better.

I understand why they are persevering with him, and a lot of it is down to some of your points, but I am hardly convinced yet.

I totally get that, and we would be way more effective if he could kick well, but he has a role and i think if he can do that role we have a really great forward unit.

 

[Return to Glory 8,448]

3 minutes ago, stuie said:

We're talking about more than 1 game here FD. You can pull stats out of a random game for anyone and use it to say they're no good at that role.

And that's aside from the fact that the role he's playing forward isn't judged on stats.

Wasn't a great game from him Saturday obviously, but he showed some signs of why he's there and the forward line functioned well with the combo of Frost, Hogan and Watts in the last quarter once Pedo was out of the way.

Look at it as a whole package. not just one player and their stats.

 

There's no doubting that he should be judged beyond one game. My concern, however, is that he for all his athleticism, he doesn't seem to be a natural footballer or have a significant presence. Confidence?

[P-man 13,366]

Still has the look of a square peg in a round hole as a forward. Would rather have him continuing to develop his craft as a defender at Casey.

[mo64 5,881]

1 minute ago, Return to Glory said:

There's no doubting that he should be judged beyond one game. My concern, however, is that he for all his athleticism, he doesn't seem to be a natural footballer or have a significant presence. Confidence?

He's not a natural footballer, hence he's not smart enough to use his speed and athleticism to get to contests. 

[stuie 7,374]

2 minutes ago, Return to Glory said:

There's no doubting that he should be judged beyond one game. My concern, however, is that he for all his athleticism, he doesn't seem to be a natural footballer or have a significant presence. Confidence?

I think he has a presence, but it's different to what you would normally expect from a big fella. He has that kind of "where is he?!" kind of presence where his speed will catch you and his size will smash you in the tackle. If he can get his goal kicking sorted, it will definitely improve/change his presence though.

 

[Wrecker45 3,378]

15 minutes ago, Forest Demon said:

People talking about his speed and pressure. He laid 0 tackles, and only had the 7 touches. I don't see how anyone can see the game he had on the weekend as a positive. 

I am not necessarily saying drop him, but it was hardly enough to make me think he will be a permanent fixture in the forward line. He is still learning it, and they will probably persevere with him for a little while. Still waiting and seeing imo.

He actually laid the best tackle of the round. It is just the umpires somehow called it a push in the back.

[Forest Demon 4,681]

To expand on the one game stats comment, last year he averaged 8 disposals and 2 tackles from 3 games, in the pre-season this year he averaged 7 disposals and 1 tackle from 3 games, and add that to the 7 disposals and 0 tackles on the weekend.

[Return to Glory 8,448]

1 minute ago, stuie said:

I think he has a presence, but it's different to what you would normally expect from a big fella. He has that kind of "where is he?!" kind of presence where his speed will catch you and his size will smash you in the tackle. If he can get his goal kicking sorted, it will definitely improve/change his presence though.

 

Stuie, I really am not trying to be a smart alec but I think you'll find that a 'where is he?! kind of presence' is actually called 'absence'.

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, Forest Demon said:

To expand on the one game stats comment, last year he averaged 8 disposals and 2 tackles from 3 games, in the pre-season this year he averaged 7 disposals and 1 tackle from 3 games, and add that to the 7 disposals and 0 tackles on the weekend.

Stats.... Seriously, you're not understanding the whole concept of "roles" mate.

I also notice in your stats you're not mentioning the marks, inside 50s and 1%ers. But I digress, his role in the forward line is one taht isn't defined by stats, which I know is hard to understand if you're not at the games. Were you there Saturday? Did you watch him in the last quarter? Did you see how well the forward line worked with that mix?

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, Return to Glory said:

Stuie, I really am not trying to be a smart alec but I think you'll find that a 'where is he?! kind of presence' is actually called 'absence'.

Maybe I didn't explain it very well... I meant that in a way where he's that quick and often will tackle from behind after a chase so he keeps defenders worried about where he is.

 

[Return to Glory 8,448]

I take your point. More of a lurking presence.

[Cranky Franky 2,141]

5 minutes ago, Forest Demon said:

To expand on the one game stats comment, last year he averaged 8 disposals and 2 tackles from 3 games, in the pre-season this year he averaged 7 disposals and 1 tackle from 3 games, and add that to the 7 disposals and 0 tackles on the weekend.

The Brains Trust have got this badly wrong.  From the highlights of Frosts time at GWS he is a natural defender so put him back there.  Plus we are desperately in need of another Tall in the backline - someone to take on the 195-200 cm forwards. Lobb was virtually marking at will during the game, lucky for us his kicking was off. 

[stuie 7,374]

2 minutes ago, Return to Glory said:

I take your point. More of a lurking presence.

Kind of, think about how defenders used to panic once Aaron Davey invented forward pressure...

 

[Akum 2,660]

My concern is that the only reason that both Frost & Pedersen are picked is that neither of them can do the job by themselves. And if we pick them both, we miss out on another runner (e.g. Stretch) when we need the extra foot speed.