One day people will wake up & realise that Racism is a human condition found all over the world. Some of the worst examples I have experienced are

In Japan by Japanese against Koreans & other dark skinned migrants. In India by upper caste Hindus against other people particularly lower castes & if they had darker skin.

In Central Australlia by some Indigenous people against Non Indigenous. In the Top End by white red necks against anyone of colour.

In Italy by Northern Italians against Southern Italians. Plenty of other examples as well in Hong Kong, Morocco & Indonesia. When I find a country without racists I'll let you know.

Not sure what your point is Cranky. That we should accept racism and ethnic bigotry as being normal???

as usual stuie, your contribution has been most illuminating

Says the guy who only ever comments on other posters... clap clap

a good point jack, but methinks football at the moment is more depressing for many demonlanders based on their footy postings

hmmm...too close to call for mine..

I'm sick of being labelled a racist because I don't like Adam Goodes. It's reverse racism in my opinion, of the people labelling me as such.

I worship the feet of three fantastic and positive role models currently at our club - who happen to have Indigenous heritages - just as I did for Farmer, Wizard, even Jurrah before his fall.

I equally dislike the antics of Petrie, Boomer, Riewoldt, Selwood and any number of theatrical, diving, ducking or sniping players, irregardless of their skin colour.

I could give two hoots about Goodes being Australian of the Year (of all the sports personalities given the award, he's done lots of admirable work for the Indigenous community and promoting their cause) but I dislike his attention seeking, sniping and arrogant on field demeanour, capped off by his antics tonight. Just as Bulldogs and Tigers supporters disliked Nate Jones' overt goal celebrations this year.

This does not make me a racist and, frankly, speaks volumes about the level of one's intelligence to label me as such. The fact that Goodes instantly cites racism as the reason anyone might dislike him is as braindead as Clark bringing up depression every time someone criticises him. It's nothing more than an attempt at deflecting from their character flaws and not owning up to some home truths.

Manipulative and all too eager to place labels on others and play the sympathy card in an entirely-too-PC society.

"Irregardless" is a word that means "regardless" used by people who think it makes them seem clever. It doesn't.

"Irregardless" is a word that means "regardless" used by people who think it makes them seem clever. It doesn't.

I'm sure everyone will be pleased to learn that my irritating fungal infection is clearing up nicely.

I'm sure everyone will be pleased to learn that my irritating fungal infection is clearing up nicely.

I suppose I'm pleased, but actually it wasn't irritating me at all.

I'm sure everyone will be pleased to learn that my irritating fungal infection is clearing up nicely.

That's nice to know that Biffen's hangover is better.

That's nice to know that Biffen's hangover is better.

I thought you were "out of here", Stu.

Unsurprisingly, your word can't be relied upon.

I thought you were "out of here", Stu.

Unsurprisingly, your word can't be relied upon.

Thanks for taking the time to answer me, instead of just assuming the worst in people. I will peruse Geoffrey Blainey's works.

Yeah that was an anger post, I should have stopped and not stereotyped as I did.

Hope Jackaub read this.

One of the the best posts Ive seen on Dland

It is pretty deep stuff and as complex as the selection, the game plan, Jack watts etc but you have shown that we all benefit from the discussion. I hope our players are making similar progress.

I agree with most of this, and i hope in doing so I do not get called a racist in the meantime. As i have said before I can not being to understand what happened in the past and I cannot being to understand what living with that past behind your people is like. The leadership post by LG http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/38489-adam-goodes/page-21#entry1101462 will only work if everyone gets behind it, government and indigenous communities. Surely there has been things of this nature tried in the past.

Just noticed this ,,,

Two things:

1. Why would you be called a racist for agreeing with most of this ?

2. Why do you care what random nongs like Stu think ?

Come on, you can do better than that.

That sounds like a challenge?

Doc, where on earth did you gain your certificate of "doctoring"? Did they not teach you to think for yourself?

Your critical abilities, do they somehow become unavailable to you when analyzing the actions and utterance's of Goodes?

(How am i doing so far . . that the sort of thing you want?)

the statement:

"Over 225 years, the Europeans, and now the governments that run our country, have raped, killed and stolen from my people for their own benefit. The total injustices that have been played out since colonization are absolutely shameful, and I now find it hard to say I am proud to be Australian."

your question . . ..

"What did he say that is incorrect there? Sure it might make you uncomfortable to face up to reality and the fact there are multiple perceptions of all events and their consequences, and for some it may even challenge their worldview. But what is factually incorrect about that statement?"

my answer

Well lets call it for what it is Doc "propaganda"! Sorry! Sweeping generalizations, stereotyping and the vilification of a group or whole race, devoid of balance, examples or exceptions IE "the Europeans", "raped, murdered, stole from" etc inferring a whole race of people with no exceptions committed horrific crimes . . is propaganda . . or worse!

These sorts of statements are usually the domain of dictators and hatemongers to push an agenda, but in this case as we know it's only the rantings of a footballer.

Yet despite their obvious transparency these statements pass by unchallenged, how is that? Why so hard for an educated man like yourself Doc?

As to what is factually correct/incorrect in the statement . . No "facts" are presented! Just sweeping generalizations! So you can say it's "true", "false", "somewhat true" or "somewhat false" or anywhere in between, take your pick, it's totally open to the bias of your opinion! Our propagandist conveniently leaves out any helpful detail or "facts" content to just corner the reader to respond with his raw emotion! There is no request by the propagandist to go to the recommended reading column or research the historical time frame mentioned . . just believe my propaganda!

Leave your rationality and critical reasoning at the door, thank you!

All we can say for sure when reading that statement is the inferred proposition "all Europeans raped, killed" etc is clearly not correct. but in the hands of the effective propagandist even that line becomes blurred. So Doc you can accept a false proposition or you can reject it! Simple really!

You may think otherwise but IMHO this is not an effective way to present a case to the multicultural population of 21st century Australia! But then we are talking about the rants of an immature man who brings nothing but division to an important conversation!

The other question here: "the legitimacy of using propaganda and emotional blackmail to further one's cause" is one I'll leave for you to answer!

Chrs

PS

To further exercise your emotional IQ, here is a statement similar to above, please see it as an opportunity to answer the same question you posed to me:

the statement:

"Over 40,000 years, the males, and the elders that rule our tribes, have raped, killed, mutilated and stolen from us our dignity for their own purpose. The total injustices that have been committed on us since the dream time are absolutely shameful, and I now find it hard to say I am proud to be an Indigenous woman."

the question

"What did she say that is incorrect here? Sure it might make you uncomfortable to face up to reality and the fact there are multiple perceptions of all events and their consequences, and for some it may even challenge their worldview. But what is factually incorrect about that statement?"

your answer ..........................

.

That sounds like a challenge?

Doc, where on earth did you gain your certificate of "doctoring"? Did they not teach you to think for yourself?

Your critical abilities, do they somehow become unavailable to you when analyzing the actions and utterance's of Goodes?

(How am i doing so far . . that the sort of thing you want?)

the statement:

"Over 225 years, the Europeans, and now the governments that run our country, have raped, killed and stolen from my people for their own benefit. The total injustices that have been played out since colonization are absolutely shameful, and I now find it hard to say I am proud to be Australian."

your question . . ..

"What did he say that is incorrect there? Sure it might make you uncomfortable to face up to reality and the fact there are multiple perceptions of all events and their consequences, and for some it may even challenge their worldview. But what is factually incorrect about that statement?"

my answer

Well lets call it for what it is Doc "propaganda"! Sorry! Sweeping generalizations, stereotyping and the vilification of a group or whole race, devoid of balance, examples or exceptions IE "the Europeans", "raped, murdered, stole from" etc inferring a whole race of people with no exceptions committed horrific crimes . . is propaganda . . or worse!

These sorts of statements are usually the domain of dictators and hatemongers to push an agenda, but in this case as we know it's only the rantings of a footballer.

Yet despite their obvious transparency these statements pass by unchallenged, how is that? Why so hard for an educated man like yourself Doc?

As to what is factually correct/incorrect in the statement . . No "facts" are presented! Just sweeping generalizations! So you can say it's "true", "false", "somewhat true" or "somewhat false" or anywhere in between, take your pick, it's totally open to the bias of your opinion! Our propagandist conveniently leaves out any helpful detail or "facts" content to just corner the reader to respond with his raw emotion! There is no request by the propagandist to go to the recommended reading column or research the historical time frame mentioned . . just believe my propaganda!

Leave your rationality and critical reasoning at the door, thank you!

All we can say for sure when reading that statement is the inferred proposition "all Europeans raped, killed" etc is clearly not correct. but in the hands of the effective propagandist even that line becomes blurred. So Doc you can accept a false proposition or you can reject it! Simple really!

You may think otherwise but IMHO this is not an effective way to present a case to the multicultural population of 21st century Australia! But then we are talking about the rants of an immature man who brings nothing but division to an important conversation!

The other question here: "the legitimacy of using propaganda and emotional blackmail to further one's cause" is one I'll leave for you to answer!

Chrs

PS

To further exercise your emotional IQ, here is a statement similar to above, please see it as an opportunity to answer the same question you posed to me:

the statement:

"Over 40,000 years, the males, and the elders that rule our tribes, have raped, killed, mutilated and stolen from us our dignity for their own purpose. The total injustices that have been committed on us since the dream time are absolutely shameful, and I now find it hard to say I am proud to be an Indigenous woman."

the question

"What did she say that is incorrect here? Sure it might make you uncomfortable to face up to reality and the fact there are multiple perceptions of all events and their consequences, and for some it may even challenge their worldview. But what is factually incorrect about that statement?"

your answer ..........................

.

White male on the internet complaining about racism against him.

I don't think anyone even needs to respond to this, we're all thinking the same thing.

I agree with much of that, however, some of these communities are so remote what standard of education do the children have ? Is it in their best interests to stay so isolated ? Do they have access to proper medical facilities, etc. ? I don't know the answers, but these issues would concern me as a parent,

I can understand why Goodes, et al, continually highlight our past and the present plight of some indigenes, however, does the finger pointing advance issues ? Is public money being properly spent to advance education and opportunity ?

An excellent post on here was LG's declaration on page 21 that the Aboriginal community needed to increase its "leadership strength". Without leadership driving progress from within we'll be having the same circular arguments in 50 years. I'll be saying that I don't take ownership over what happened 250 years ago and others will walk around advertising their deep-seated guilt. But I'm not sure how this self-loathing has actually ever advanced the indigenous cause.

There will have to come a time when the reconciliation movement stops wallowing over the past and starts focussing on the future, which I'm sure they're already doing, but anger over the past only stifles advancement. Kevin Rudd said "sorry", but what has that achieved ? Now I know that last sentence will be all that some focus on (the Stu's and Hardtacks of this world}, but what are the tangible benefits ? Perhaps it was the line in the sand to move forward from. OK, great. Where to now ?

The mind is the most powerful thing any human possesses. It will reap tremendous rewards for those with passion, desire and a plan for advancement. Goodes has the first two, but does he have the third ? All the rear mirror gazing in the world will achieve nothing until the Aboriginal people can visualise what success looks like. Do they know what they crave and how to get it ? Will they be driven and focus on what they want for the future or be paralysed by what happened in the past ? Where are the leaders ? Are the leaders all on the same page ?

Or is this a circular argument that will never change ? It can change, but it will only be changed by indigenous peoples.

A few comments on this post PD.

The first is that i agree that like any community the Aboriginal community needs strong leaders, a point Micky O made in the article i linked previously. And i agree with him that Adam Goodes is showing this leadership (as is Micky O for that matter).

The second is that, it is my view that we can't simply draw a line in the sand and move on, so to speak. Healing has to occur, on all sides - Aboriginal people and the rest of us. Until we heal we will never be able to mature and grow as a country. We will remain stunted. Reconciliation will never truly occur and Australia as county will be the worst for it.

Healing requires a frank and honest reflection on what has happened in the past. Not wallowing but revisiting.By not doing so we will never be able to move on - and by we i mean all of us. This need to reflect and accept what has happened in the past is why the current Royal Commission into institutional sexual abuse is so important.

That Royal commission is relevant to the view that people should move on from the crimes against Aboriginal people in the last 225 years - leave it in the past, its nothing to do with us etc etc. Some might argue that people know about the abuse in the Church and in other institutions, its all in the past, it wasn't the current church and institutional leaders who allowed it go on, the guilty have been charged and prosecuted, most are dead etc : so why is a new Royal Commission needed, can't the victims and their families just move on?

You only need to listen to the survivors of this abuse, their testimony and their reason why it was so important to both testify and the to RC occur to understand how vital proper acknowledgment and clarity on what occurred is in terms of enabling healing. Just as importantly the process helps to ensure such crimes are less likely to occur in the future. What's that quote about being doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past if you don't learn the lessons?

Rudds sorry was a step in the right direction, but only a step. None the less it was one of the most significant days in Australian history and will be remembered as such.

Edited June 4, 201510 yr by binman

The thread and the opinions are wearing thin, although the strong opinions tell you a lot about the complexity of issues involving race. Like a lot of threads the tone of the discussion is then lowered by over inflated egos, grandstanding, and overly sensitive folks who object to contrary views from their own. There are some folks who take themselves way to seriously. Unless there are some Nobel Prize winners then don't take yourself to seriously. What is it that makes people become sarcastic, condescending, and overtly personal. Wouldn't it be wonderful to get everyone together for a drink and share humorous anecdotes. Then watch as things deteriorate and the vocal posters engage in cage fighting. Sports Bet might be interested. And we all support the same mob. Amazing. Still I am sure the tone is much higher on this site than others.

That sounds like a challenge?

Doc, where on earth did you gain your certificate of "doctoring"? Did they not teach you to think for yourself?

Your critical abilities, do they somehow become unavailable to you when analyzing the actions and utterance's of Goodes?

(How am i doing so far . . that the sort of thing you want?)

the statement:

"Over 225 years, the Europeans, and now the governments that run our country, have raped, killed and stolen from my people for their own benefit. The total injustices that have been played out since colonization are absolutely shameful, and I now find it hard to say I am proud to be Australian."

your question . . ..

"What did he say that is incorrect there? Sure it might make you uncomfortable to face up to reality and the fact there are multiple perceptions of all events and their consequences, and for some it may even challenge their worldview. But what is factually incorrect about that statement?"

my answer

Well lets call it for what it is Doc "propaganda"! Sorry! Sweeping generalizations, stereotyping and the vilification of a group or whole race, devoid of balance, examples or exceptions IE "the Europeans", "raped, murdered, stole from" etc inferring a whole race of people with no exceptions committed horrific crimes . . is propaganda . . or worse!

These sorts of statements are usually the domain of dictators and hatemongers to push an agenda, but in this case as we know it's only the rantings of a footballer.

Yet despite their obvious transparency these statements pass by unchallenged, how is that? Why so hard for an educated man like yourself Doc?

As to what is factually correct/incorrect in the statement . . No "facts" are presented! Just sweeping generalizations! So you can say it's "true", "false", "somewhat true" or "somewhat false" or anywhere in between, take your pick, it's totally open to the bias of your opinion! Our propagandist conveniently leaves out any helpful detail or "facts" content to just corner the reader to respond with his raw emotion! There is no request by the propagandist to go to the recommended reading column or research the historical time frame mentioned . . just believe my propaganda!

Leave your rationality and critical reasoning at the door, thank you!

All we can say for sure when reading that statement is the inferred proposition "all Europeans raped, killed" etc is clearly not correct. but in the hands of the effective propagandist even that line becomes blurred. So Doc you can accept a false proposition or you can reject it! Simple really!

You may think otherwise but IMHO this is not an effective way to present a case to the multicultural population of 21st century Australia! But then we are talking about the rants of an immature man who brings nothing but division to an important conversation!

The other question here: "the legitimacy of using propaganda and emotional blackmail to further one's cause" is one I'll leave for you to answer!

Chrs

PS

To further exercise your emotional IQ, here is a statement similar to above, please see it as an opportunity to answer the same question you posed to me:

the statement:

"Over 40,000 years, the males, and the elders that rule our tribes, have raped, killed, mutilated and stolen from us our dignity for their own purpose. The total injustices that have been committed on us since the dream time are absolutely shameful, and I now find it hard to say I am proud to be an Indigenous woman."

the question

"What did she say that is incorrect here? Sure it might make you uncomfortable to face up to reality and the fact there are multiple perceptions of all events and their consequences, and for some it may even challenge their worldview. But what is factually incorrect about that statement?"

your answer ..........................

.

Gonzo said 'you can do better than that.' Obviously he was wrong.

White male on the internet complaining about racism against him.

I don't think anyone even needs to respond to this, we're all thinking the same thing.

you know he's white, do you stuie?

and i thought you said goodbye to this thread

seems you don't always mean what you say

you know he's white, do you stuie?

and i thought you said goodbye to this thread

seems you don't always mean what you say

I'm sure everyone will be pleased to learn that my irritating fungal infection is clearing up nicely.

What's your secret ? I have these pigs chasing me screaming "truffles".

you know he's white, do you stuie?

and i thought you said goodbye to this thread

seems you don't always mean what you say

And you can do better than that, Daisy.

Please elaborate on those moments of ambiguity you detect in the original post.

And you can do better than that, Daisy.

Please elaborate on those moments of ambiguity you detect in the original post.

i was commenting on stuie's "White male on the internet complaining about racism against him" grandstanding

reminded me of spy vs spy, but that was before stuie's time

i didn't comment on the op. it wasn't really worth it.

I agree with much of that, however, some of these communities are so remote what standard of education do the children have ? Is it in their best interests to stay so isolated ? Do they have access to proper medical facilities, etc. ? I don't know the answers, but these issues would concern me as a parent,

I can understand why Goodes, et al, continually highlight our past and the present plight of some indigenes, however, does the finger pointing advance issues ? Is public money being properly spent to advance education and opportunity ?

An excellent post on here was LG's declaration on page 21 that the Aboriginal community needed to increase its "leadership strength". Without leadership driving progress from within we'll be having the same circular arguments in 50 years. I'll be saying that I don't take ownership over what happened 250 years ago and others will walk around advertising their deep-seated guilt. But I'm not sure how this self-loathing has actually ever advanced the indigenous cause.

There will have to come a time when the reconciliation movement stops wallowing over the past and starts focussing on the future, which I'm sure they're already doing, but anger over the past only stifles advancement. Kevin Rudd said "sorry", but what has that achieved ? Now I know that last sentence will be all that some focus on (the Stu's and Hardtacks of this world}, but what are the tangible benefits ? Perhaps it was the line in the sand to move forward from. OK, great. Where to now ?

The mind is the most powerful thing any human possesses. It will reap tremendous rewards for those with passion, desire and a plan for advancement. Goodes has the first two, but does he have the third ? All the rear mirror gazing in the world will achieve nothing until the Aboriginal people can visualise what success looks like. Do they know what they crave and how to get it ? Will they be driven and focus on what they want for the future or be paralysed by what happened in the past ? Where are the leaders ? Are the leaders all on the same page ?

Or is this a circular argument that will never change ? It can change, but it will only be changed by indigenous peoples.

Pretty tough when money is continually taken out of these communities.

The last two paragraphs are so patronising I don't even know where to begin. I don't particularly wish to have an argument on here, but I will say this. It's not up to me or anyone else to tell you where or how you should live, just as it shouldn't be up to politicians to tell indigenous communities how to live. It's like the old daft statement that indigenous people should just assimilate into Anglo culture, with the implication being Anglo culture is superior to indigenous culture. What people who hold this belief tend to forget is the idea of empathy. What if someone told you to assimilate into a foreign culture and way of living? I reckon you'd say [censored] you and rightly so.

As he said its part of human condition. Its innate. Blame evolution.

Fear is an innate human condition, but fear can be countered with education. Racism often has its groundings in fear and a lack of education.

It's not up to me or anyone else to tell you where or how you should live, just as it shouldn't be up to politicians to tell indigenous communities how to live. It's like the old daft statement that indigenous people should just assimilate into Anglo culture, with the implication being Anglo culture is superior to indigenous culture. What people who hold this belief tend to forget is the idea of empathy. What if someone told you to assimilate into a foreign culture and way of living? I reckon you'd say [censored] and rightly so.

So you don't want these communities funded from the public purse ? They're self sufficient ?