Adam Goodes

[jnrmac 20,053]

Research which is by far in the the minority. There is also a bloke who is held up by some as a doyen of democracy, which some use to support their terribly misguided opinions. His name is David Irving.

See there you go again, By all means attack the author for getting things wrong but to slander his articulate research (which I am guessing you haven't read?) by associating it glibly with a nutcase like David Irving totally demeans the value of anything you say.

Its a tactic often used by those who do not wish to undergo scrutiny. Throw a grenade off in some other direction. You are better than that.

[jnrmac 20,053]

This is the crux of it - he says things white Australia finds uncomfortable and would rather have swept under the carpet. Yeah, if you're good at playing sport and can entertain the masses with ball tricks you may make it but for the vast majority of Indigenous Australians they still live in conditions comparable to apartheid South Africa. Apparently "vilifying" white Australia by pointing out acts of genocide since settlement is worse than the actual genocide itself. Crazy logic.

Not my logic and nothing to do with what I said.

Goodes speech was ungracious, undignified and belittled the honour bestowed upon him.

[jnrmac 20,053]

I wonder how JnrMac and Prodee would feel if they lived in a country dominated by a people who stole the land and racially abused them on a daily basis. Then one decides to stand up and show some passion and pride for his people and gets shot down for it. This level of hypocrisy can only be shown by uneducated, sheltered folk with little sense for the world as larger than their own postcode.

yet again you are completely missing the orginal argument and simply morph the debate into your own prejudices.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

See there you go again, By all means attack the author for getting things wrong but to slander his articulate research (which I am guessing you haven't read?) by associating it glibly with a nutcase like David Irving totally demeans the value of anything you say.

Its a tactic often used by those who do not wish to undergo scrutiny. Throw a grenade off in some other direction. You are better than that.

Unfortunately I have read Windschuttle's tripe. Seen him in debate at Melbourne U and and on numerous TV appearances. Have you? While not as heinous, his crackpot theories are just as bad as Irving's, in terms of research and logic.

For your reference:

"Henry Reynolds shows how Windschuttle "operates a system of filters" in his use of historical evidence. It is through a filter that he asserts the Aborigines in Tasmania "did not own the land". Windschuttle's only evidence for this claim is that the Aborigines "didn't have a word for property". Reynolds lists the many sources Windschuttle disregarded, including Tasmanian Aboriginal words for "my country" - clear evidence of a territorial claim.

Two welcome inclusions in Whitewash are the Aboriginal voices of Peggy Patrick and Greg Lehman. Lehman, a Tasmanian, explains how "truth" and "facts" of history-telling are secondary in Aboriginal culture to the notions of respect and trust.

Nowhere has Windschuttle more notably disregarded these concepts than in accusing Patrick of fabricating her story of the Mistake Creek massacre. Windschuttle said it was not possible that Patrick's mother was killed in 1915. He misinterpreted Patrick's Aboriginal English: "mum mother" means grandmother, not mother. "Bad enough this terrible thing bin happen," Patrick tells us. Worse that Windschuttle "make big shame for me all over".

Throughout Whitewash, we are reminded of Windschuttle's dispassion. He counts the dead but is unmoved by their passing. He concludes that 118 Aborigines were killed on the Tasmanian frontier. Mark Finnane, employing standard social science methodologies, concludes this death rate was proportionally three times higher than that of Australian soldiers in World War I. He wonders why Windschuttle, whose work demonstrates the violence of the colonial frontier, "evades his own conclusions". "

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Well this is literally the first I'm hearing of it. You'll forgive me RN for being slightly skeptical of your conspiracy theory. Every outlet reported that the word used was "ape". if you know otherwise then you should explain how you know, and stop speaking in tongues. IF she used much more overt language then that would have to be taken into consideration.

Gonz - I'm not just referring to Goodes. En masse I thought the handling of it was poor. My view is that Goodes' line of "racism has a face and it's a 13 year old girl" was wholly unnecessary in the message he was trying to convey. The hysteria over name calling seemed to forget that this was a child, not an adult, that was under public trial.

.

As u know P, a journalist never reveals his sources!

Let me just say that there were others at the ground that night other than the crowd and they weren't there playing tiddly winks.

That Goodes went along with the "Ape" line surely Is a sign that he has a heart and was willing to assist those involved in order to take the spotlight and redicule/heat off the 13yo as much as possible.

More forgiveness and understanding of.the situation than many have judged and given him credit for. Albeit I realise most are none the wiser as this is what the press were lead to believe and reported. Unfortunately the attemp to protect her has now apparently back fired with many judging Goodes as over reacting to what "appears" to most as a girl just calling him a name that reflects her view of his "appearance" rather than race.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Rusty Nails

[jnrmac 20,053]

Wonder how you'd feel if your ancestral lands were stolen and your ancestors slaughtered. If it made you money you probably wouldn't care you small, shallow little peanut

Nice intelligent response. RI. I am so persuaded by your articulate posts.

Edited June 1, 2015 by jnrmac

[beelzebub 23,313]

actually..as an aside ( sorta ) it was always my understanding that the Indigenous never took the view they owned anything. They have to my belief always put forward the motion of custodians.. Seems there were custody battles over time as well. But whats that matter.

really this thread should be in the "GENERAL area as it has bugger all to do with footy really

[jnrmac 20,053]

Wow, you should tell someone at the ABC about that. Genocide still occurring??

Hey, maybe you work for the ABC?

Would you care to tell us where this geniocide is still occurring? Let me help you with a definition: "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group."

The crime of genocide is defined in international law in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

© Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide.

The Genocide Convention was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948. The Convention entered into force on 12 January 1951. More than 130 nations have ratified the Genocide Convention and over 70 nations have made provisions for the punishment of genocide in domestic criminal law. The text of Article II of the Genocide Convention was included as a crime in Article 6 of the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

I am still waiting for you to justify your statement that we are practising genocide in this country? Where do you see this? You think that making big, grand, untrue statements boost your arguments. The bigger the lie the more people will believe you? I think it shows you are brainwashed.

[daisycutter 29,600]

I've read the last few pages of this thread iv'a, and if there's anything to be learnt from it, it's that the 'insular conservatives' to borrow your too kind label are beyond any challenge to their worldview. As it is fuelled by and predicated on fear of more than just change, any evidentially based attack on their position makes them resort to reflex denial. It's the irrational defence from a cornered intellect. At heart it's a fundamentalism borne of an unquestioning and selfish habit. So good luck trying to push your case. It makes me laugh when they try to paint the current youth as the 'ME' generation.

wow, webber, what a polemic attack

you do realise that you have added zero content to the discussion but just launched a hyperbolic attack aimed purely at the person and not the subject

you are just adding to what ivor was doing, straying wide of the subject and applying a broad brush of bitterness to denigrate others

a great way to work towards consensus

for what it's worth, goodes's little war dance bothered me not at all. a non event as far as i'm concerned

but all the pious, self-righteous extrapolating and pontificating (by both "sides") in this thread is giving me a headache

it seems more like a pizzing contest than a discussion

[jnrmac 20,053]

Unfortunately I have read Windschuttle's tripe. Seen him in debate at Melbourne U and and on numerous TV appearances. Have you? While not as heinous, his crackpot theories are just as bad as Irving's, in terms of research and logic.

For your reference:

"Henry Reynolds shows how Windschuttle "operates a system of filters" in his use of historical evidence. It is through a filter that he asserts the Aborigines in Tasmania "did not own the land". Windschuttle's only evidence for this claim is that the Aborigines "didn't have a word for property". Reynolds lists the many sources Windschuttle disregarded, including Tasmanian Aboriginal words for "my country" - clear evidence of a territorial claim.

Two welcome inclusions in Whitewash are the Aboriginal voices of Peggy Patrick and Greg Lehman. Lehman, a Tasmanian, explains how "truth" and "facts" of history-telling are secondary in Aboriginal culture to the notions of respect and trust.

Nowhere has Windschuttle more notably disregarded these concepts than in accusing Patrick of fabricating her story of the Mistake Creek massacre. Windschuttle said it was not possible that Patrick's mother was killed in 1915. He misinterpreted Patrick's Aboriginal English: "mum mother" means grandmother, not mother. "Bad enough this terrible thing bin happen," Patrick tells us. Worse that Windschuttle "make big shame for me all over".

Throughout Whitewash, we are reminded of Windschuttle's dispassion. He counts the dead but is unmoved by their passing. He concludes that 118 Aborigines were killed on the Tasmanian frontier. Mark Finnane, employing standard social science methodologies, concludes this death rate was proportionally three times higher than that of Australian soldiers in World War I. He wonders why Windschuttle, whose work demonstrates the violence of the colonial frontier, "evades his own conclusions". "

Yes I have actually. I haven't read Henry Reynolds but may well do.

[PaulRB 6,336]

I am still waiting for you to justify your statement that we are practising genocide in this country? Where do you see this? You think that making big, grand, untrue statements boost your arguments. The bigger the lie the more people will believe you? I think it shows you are brainwashed.

ABS site... offers the following statistical support that we continue to practice genocide... i.e. facilitating a system that decreases the life span of one group (indigenous) relative to another group.

LIFE EXPECTANCY

Life expectancy is a summary measure of mortality. It represents the estimated number of years a newborn baby would live if current mortality patterns remained constant throughout the baby's lifetime (see Box 1.7).

At the national level for 2005–2007:

• Life expectancy at birth for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander males is estimated to be 67.2 years, 11.5 years less than life expectancy at birth for non-Indigenous males (78.7 years).
• Life expectancy at birth for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander females is estimated to be 72.9 years, 9.7 years less than life expectancy at birth for non-Indigenous females (82.6 years).

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

I've read the last few pages of this thread iv'a, and if there's anything to be learnt from it, it's that the 'insular conservatives' to borrow your too kind label are beyond any challenge to their worldview. As it is fuelled by and predicated on fear of more than just change, any evidentially based attack on their position makes them resort to reflex denial. It's the irrational defence from a cornered intellect. At heart it's a fundamentalism borne of an unquestioning and selfish habit. So good luck trying to push your case. It makes me laugh when they try to paint the current youth as the 'ME' generation.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Rusty Nails

[Dr. Gonzo 24,130]

I am still waiting for you to justify your statement that we are practising genocide in this country? Where do you see this? You think that making big, grand, untrue statements boost your arguments. The bigger the lie the more people will believe you? I think it shows you are brainwashed.

Kids are still being removed from their parents, the Stolen Generations hasn't stopped. The NT intervention and the planned WA closure of remote communities leading to displaced people. These are acts of genocide under the law.

Extraordinary demonstrations of Indigenous women protesting the removal of their children and grandchildren by the state, some of them at gunpoint, are ignored by journalists and patronised by politicians. More Indigenous children are being wrenched from their homes and communities today than during the worst years of the Stolen Generation. A record 15,000 are presently detained "in care"; many are given to white families and will never return to their communities.

**************************************************************************

On her watch, 50 City of Perth armed police raided an Indigenous homeless camp at Matagarup, and drove off mostly elderly women and young mothers with children. The people in the camp described themselves as "refugees... seeking safety in our own country". They called for the help of the United Nations High Commissioner on Refugees.

Australian politicians are nervous of the United Nations. Abbott's response has been abuse. When Professor James Anaya, the UN Special Rapporteur on Indigenous People, described the racism of the "intervention", Abbott told him to, "get a life" and "not listen to the old victim brigade".

The planned closure of Indigenous homelands breaches Article 5 of the International Convention for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (ICERD) and the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People (UNDRIP). Australia is committed to "provide effective mechanisms for prevention of, and redress for... any action which has the aim of dispossessing [indigenous people] of their lands, territories or resources". The Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights is blunt. "Forced evictions" are against the law.

http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-secret-country-again-wages-war-on-its-own-people

Edited June 1, 2015 by Dr. Gonzo

[beelzebub 23,313]

the football content of this thread is ??

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

the football content of this thread is ??

A political football. Yep move it or close it down.

[Cranky Franky 2,031]

"Stolen Generations" I'm confused.

My dad was handed over by his single parent father to an orphanage (in Europe) at 3 moths. My father in law's mother got pregnant in the 1940's & gave him up for adoption at birth.

It seems that if you were one of the tens of thousands of non indigenous kids removed by various authorities in the last 100 years it was done for good logical reasons.

If you were one of the tens of thousands of Indigenous kids removed during the same time it was done because of racism, genocide or stupidity.

What are we supposed to make of the thousands of kids of all races still being removed from their parents today.

Seems to me to be complex issue with a lot of grey areas.

[AzzKikA 2,371]

Kids are still being removed from their parents, the Stolen Generations hasn't stopped. The NT intervention and the planned WA closure of remote communities leading to displaced people. These are acts of genocide under the law.

http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-secret-country-again-wages-war-on-its-own-people

So we should just let them drink and bash each other to death then?

We cannot change what many before us did, whether we believe it right or wrong. Have you been to the NT lately? You cannot help those who do not wish to be helped. Bigotry is bred on both sides. Many stand with their hand out waiting for the white fella to give them something, and if you do what do they do with it? How do you change the thinking on their side too not just whiteys?

[Vipercrunch 2,820]

The lighter side of the weekend:-

http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/05/29/the-idiots-guide-to-booing-adam-goodes/

http://titusoreily.com/afl-to-ban-imaginary-spears-at-games/

Edited June 1, 2015 by S_T

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

So we should just let them drink and bash each other to death then?

We cannot change what many before us did, whether we believe it right or wrong. Have you been to the NT lately? You cannot help those who do not wish to be helped. Bigotry is bred on both sides. Many stand with their hand out waiting for the white fella to give them something, and if you do what do they do with it? How do you change the thinking on their side too not just whiteys?

Simplistic drivel which inures the bigotry.

[redlegwarrior 23]

From a marketing point of view. YES.

I would get MFC to find another big melbourne club (Hawthorn or Carlton) and make it a marquee game.

Play a game Thursday night every year on indigenous round.

Get all 82 indigenous AFL players to attend and participate in the War dance before the game.

Thursday night would be perfect as it is a stand alone game and will allow interstate players to attend and participate.

It will give the opportunity to show solidarity amongst indigenous AFL players and a proper way to celebrate and kick off indigenous round.

Your hearts in the right place. You need to think a little deeper on people's dignity

[AzzKikA 2,371]

Simplistic drivel which inures the bigotry.

Are you for real, answer the bloody question moron.

Are you denying that these things occur?

Europeans came to this country and colonized it, then they tried to civilize the locals and when that didn't work they butchered and raped the locals, stole their children and were just plain old a-holes.

Many years have passed, error of ways seen and attempted "fixes" put in place, most of which fail miserably because of both sides inability to move on and look for a real resolution instead of throwing money at the situation. Yes those horrible things happened but constantly using them as a weapon for hate is not helping anyone.

[Elusive Tunbridge 795]

actually..as an aside ( sorta ) it was always my understanding that the Indigenous never took the view they owned anything. They have to my belief always put forward the motion of custodians.. Seems there were custody battles over time as well. But whats that matter.

really this thread should be in the "GENERAL area as it has bugger all to do with footy really

I support a shift. I just don't think it should be closed down.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Are you for real, answer the bloody question moron.

Are you denying that these things occur?

Europeans came to this country and colonized it, then they tried to civilize the locals and when that didn't work they butchered and raped the locals, stole their children and were just plain old a-holes.

Many years have passed, error of ways seen and attempted "fixes" put in place, most of which fail miserably because of both sides inability to move on and look for a real resolution instead of throwing money at the situation. Yes those horrible things happened but constantly using them as a weapon for hate is not helping anyone.

Moron??? Thanks mate.

I'll cop most things, but not personal abuse. You are damned by your own words. I need not say any more in response. Now back to the footy.

[AzzKikA 2,371]

Moron??? Thanks mate.

I'll cop most things, but not personal abuse. You are damned by your own words. I need not say any more in response. Now back to the footy.

I apologize for the personal attack just fired up from my writing being called simplistic drivel.

Edited June 1, 2015 by AzzKikA

[daisycutter 29,600]

I apologize for the personal attack just fired up from my writing being called simplistic drivel.

sometimes simplistic drivel is preferable to sophisticated drivel