well, see, I am not asserting that EFC are necessairly innocent. Personally I think there is a good chance, based on the available evidence, that the scenario of Dank thinking he's too clever by half and thining he can use substances like AOD and tb4 by using the S0 loophole. It's a false dichotomy used by so many people in this debate that you must be either firmly of the belief that EFC are evil and guilty of drug-taking with no possibility thats the case; or that you believe EFC are a victimised innocent entity run by a coach who's [censored] doesn't stink.

Things are rarely so black and white in the real world.

The records, such as they are, were clearly catastrophically insufficient. Whether that's because of incompetence, or cheating, or a byproduct of EFC being used by other parties who sell the exact same substances remains to be seen

Unfortunately Lance in the big bad world of pro sports and doping it won't cut it . The players have to prove what they had . The rule is there to prevent loopholes to be used by guys like Dank .

I understand a players so loyalty to a club. What I cant accept is the notion that a parent considers the health , life and future of their son less important than toeing the line at a rogue football club

well, see, I am not asserting that EFC are necessairly innocent. Personally I think there is a good chance, based on the available evidence, that the scenario of Dank thinking he's too clever by half and thining he can use substances like AOD and tb4 by using the S0 loophole. It's a false dichotomy used by so many people in this debate that you must be either firmly of the belief that EFC are evil and guilty of drug-taking with no possibility thats the case; or that you believe EFC are a victimised innocent entity run by a coach who's [censored] doesn't stink.

Things are rarely so black and white in the real world.

The records, such as they are, were clearly catastrophically insufficient. Whether that's because of incompetence, or cheating, or a byproduct of EFC being used by other parties who sell the exact same substances remains to be seen

So now the records are really bad? Not really worth hanging any sort of supporting argument for the players on is it?

If I was a bomber I would hide from the records argument and try and change the subject at every possible opportunity. At best it outlines the complete ineptness of the club and near on criminal neglect they had for their staff.

That is really easy if they were on paper, or a laptop, or someone else's computer. Where are they lance? You said they exist, where are they?

“The spreadsheet is in the keeping of lawyers who are acting for the players,” Le Grand told SEN.

“I’m pretty sure that Paul Little has a copy of it on his desktop at work.”

“The problem with the spreadsheet is that it lacks credibility.”

“The lawyers of the players decided that there’s not much weight they can put on it.”

“Like a lot of the documentation in this case it’s not too shabby, it’s not really going to convince anyone.”

http://www.sen.com.au/news/05-15/chip-le-grand-dons-mystery-spreadsheet-lacks-credibility

I see what you mean lance, one element of the situation I find hard to believe is the pro Hird agenda, as far as I'm concerned the senior coach of a football club is responsible for everything that happens in the football department, especially when it's James Hird because of his status as a club legend,

We've seen a huge injection program undertaken that none knows ( or is telling porkys) what was injected, their are no records to prove the substances were legal or illegal, and more troubling there is no way to know of long term effects,

For me this is either cheating, or a catastrophic failure by the football department, even if nothing illegal was given, it's something they should have very detailed records of, the fact the players had to sign waivers speaks volumes imo, the blame should go squarely on Hird and all others in charge of the program and tb4 or not I think the punishment they have received doesn't reflect the level

Of failure for just not having correct records.

let's not go overboard. It's not even a crime, let alone a serious one.

Although I almost put crime in quotes, thinking you'd make that cheap response, I refrained because surely it is criminal to inject someone with an 'unknown' substance, which being unknown may have serious health implications. And even so if the substance is 'known' but its long-term effects are not known. Regardless if permission has been given in ignorance.

You have a firm grasp of straws LU. I hope you can hold on tight.

“The spreadsheet is in the keeping of lawyers who are acting for the players,” Le Grand told SEN.

“I’m pretty sure that Paul Little has a copy of it on his desktop at work.”

“The problem with the spreadsheet is that it lacks credibility.”

“The lawyers of the players decided that there’s not much weight they can put on it.”

“Like a lot of the documentation in this case it’s not too shabby, it’s not really going to convince anyone.”

http://www.sen.com.au/news/05-15/chip-le-grand-dons-mystery-spreadsheet-lacks-credibility

One tip, quoting Chip doesn't actually add any credibility to a post, it may actually remove it.

The rest of your comment covers the deplorable records, those are the ones that point to the potential criminal neglect by the club towards its staff, workcover will work that one out.

Surely you don't suggest they are the only records, or were the club so dumb as to not actually know if the hundreds of thousands of dollars they were spending was working.

Here is a hint for you Lance. There are two ways out of this for you, either the club is incredibly negligent/Dumb/naïve, or there were good records kept and they have been hidden/destroyed. Neither option looks good, but they are the only two you have.

One tip, quoting Chip doesn't actually add any credibility to a post, it may actually remove it.

The rest of your comment covers the deplorable records, those are the ones that point to the potential criminal neglect by the club towards its staff, workcover will work that one out.

Surely you don't suggest they are the only records, or were the club so dumb as to not actually know if the hundreds of thousands of dollars they were spending was working.

Here is a hint for you Lance. There are two ways out of this for you, either the club is incredibly negligent/Dumb/naïve, or there were good records kept and they have been hidden/destroyed. Neither option looks good, but they are the only two you have.

Thanks for the "hint". I appreciate it. Oh, apart from the fact it's a point I've made repeatedly myself that is

let's not go overboard. It's not even a crime, let alone a serious one.

Lance you may be premature here.

Human experimentation is a crime last time I looked.

Worksafe Victoria may have something to say about crimes too.

You may struggle with ethics and cheating but I do not.

Essendon Football Club are about to enter the real world of pain. This is as a result of its own actions.

Thanks for the "hint". I appreciate it. Oh, apart from the fact it's a point I've made repeatedly myself that is

Yet you defend them, strange?

Essendons silence re: Stephen Dank says it all.

Essendons silence re: Stephen Dank says it all.

There a good question for you Lance, if there are no good records, and they never existed, and they cant tell the players what they injected them with, why has the EFC not sued the pants off Dank or at the very least taken him to court to get the records?

Yet you defend them, strange?

the fact you consider a desire to see a properly contituted process reach a resolution as strange kind of says it all

the fact you consider a desire to see a properly contituted process reach a resolution as strange kind of says it all

There is no resolution required on these points Lance, it is one or the other, and both are abhorrent! Even you defend the club on other points until a resolution is made, on this point there is no defence.

There a good question for you Lance, if there are no good records, and they never existed, and they cant tell the players what they injected them with, why has the EFC not sued the pants off Dank or at the very least taken him to court to get the records?

perhaps at the end of the process they will do exactly that. I hope they do.

I never argue with drunks, junkies, bricks, jihadists, Essendon supporters or Catholic Archbishops.

perhaps at the end of the process they will do exactly that. I hope they do.

Don't you think that if they even thought for a second he could clear them, as Dank says he can, then they would have done this long ago?

There is no resolution required on these points Lance, it is one or the other, and both are abhorrent! Even you defend the club on other points until a resolution is made, on this point there is no defence.

I don't really get your point. I don't make a defence of the club for their record keeping. The best case scenario is the club was sloppy and incompentant. Like most rational EFC supporters I consider this to have been a disgraceful episode in our history

My 2 bobs worth

CAS will examine "ALL THE EVIDENCE"

So does that means they can get Ess for anything and everything not just TB4?

I never argue with drunks, junkies, bricks, jihadists, Essendon supporters or Catholic Archbishops.

Jabber you mix with a lovely bunch. What have you got against drunks at least they have morals?

Don't you think that if they even thought for a second he could clear them, as Dank says he can, then they would have done this long ago?

what do I think that they think about what Dank thinks?

Kind of hard for me to answer that really. I can certainly appreciate the wisdom not wanting to open another legal front in the midst of a high-profile investigation for an uncertain outcome against a demonstrably lititigious opponent, if that's what you're trying to ask

I don't really get your point. I don't make a defence of the club for their record keeping. The best case scenario is the club was sloppy and incompentant. Like most rational EFC supporters I consider this to have been a disgraceful episode in our history

I guess I get confused when in one comment you say you believe they kept records of a legal program, and then you are saying the record keeping was "sloppy and incompetent". You cant have it both ways.

Jabber you mix with a lovely bunch. What have you got against drunks at least they have morals?

I'd be more worried about what he has against bricks ...

I guess I get confused when in one comment you say you believe they kept records of a legal program, and then you are saying the record keeping was "sloppy and incompetent". You cant have it both ways.

of course you can.

what do I think that they think about what Dank thinks?

Kind of hard for me to answer that really. I can certainly appreciate the wisdom not wanting to open another legal front in the midst of a high-profile investigation for an uncertain outcome against a demonstrably lititigious opponent, if that's what you're trying to ask

Given me a good laugh there! pot kettle comes to mind!

What I am asking is very simple, Dank says he has records to clear the players, did do so many times before saying Essendon had the records recently. If you were the bombers, would you not chase those records and do everything possible to get your hands on them in order to clear you players? Why didn't they?