There's your weaknessLance

EFC has chosen to not tell the truth re a performance enhancing program

Have you asked them what the truth is?

Do you honestly believe they had no records of a legal drug program?

Do you believe the world body can allow any sports person to undertake an illegal drug program and ignore it on the basis that there are no records?

Do you think the cost of testing every athlete for drugs every time they perform is worth it just to ensure that no athlete can use that excuse?

Do you support drugs in sport as a reasonable extension of whatever it takes?

That'll do for now

all of your questions are based on the premise that EFC cheated. Do you expect me to debate with that as an assumption? Really?

I don't support drugs in sport, no. But as it stands we have one out of one decision which didn't find the players guilty...

all of your questions are based on the premise that EFC cheated. Do you expect me to debate with that as an assumption? Really?

I don't support drugs in sport, no. But as it stands we have one out of one decision which didn't find the players guilty...

Do you seriously think they didn't?

all of your questions are based on the premise that EFC cheated. Do you expect me to debate with that as an assumption? Really?

I don't support drugs in sport, no. But as it stands we have one out of one decision which didn't find the players guilty...

More crucially it didn't find them innocent.

Do you seriously think they didn't?

I've been very open-minded actually. I think there's a fair chance a line was crossed. But as I said, the evidence has been examined.

At least I am open-minded, unlike the prevailing guilty at all costs mentality that pervades various places

More crucially it didn't find them innocent.

not "more crucially" at all, since "innocent" is not a verdict that even exists

I've been very open-minded actually. I think there's a fair chance a line was crossed. But as I said, the evidence has been examined.

At least I am open-minded, unlike the prevailing guilty at all costs mentality that pervades various places

"A fair chance a line was crossed"! Makes it sound like the line is somewhat arbitrary and maybe not a serious crime to cross it.

I think most of us, even those with 'open minds' would say "the line" instead of "a line".

"A fair chance a line was crossed"! Makes it sound like the line is somewhat arbitrary and maybe not a serious crime to cross it.

I think most of us, even those with 'open minds' would say "the line" instead of "a line".

let's not go overboard. It's not even a crime, let alone a serious one.

Lance have you seen the Nick Mckenzie interview with Dank ? Dank talks openly about giving tb4 before being told by the reporter it is banned . Have a look there is no way he was talking of another substance as claimed after .The triibunal was satisfied of this . There are a few articles that simply relay the facts of this story . A Google search will help . This is one of the reasons it frustrates so many people who want a clean game and are disappointed with the Essendon campaign to avoid being sanctioned .

It's simple - the players were given a tb4 by a clown scientist who thought he was ahead of the game and wasn't .

And the club should never have allowed a risky program like that .

Cop the whack and move on .

There are many here including myself who would want all officials coaches etc involved if it happened at our club banned for life no matter who it was . There is a bigger picture here and Essendon have been selfish and arrogant to fight the inevitable

A line was crossed the moment Essendon couldn't produce records of what they injected their players with, I suspect that alone will be looked at very harshly at CAS

Lance have you seen the Nick Mckenzie interview with Dank ? Dank talks openly about giving tb4 before being told by the reporter it is banned . Have a look there is no way he was talking of another substance as claimed after .The triibunal was satisfied of this . There are a few articles that simply relay the facts of this story . A Google search will help . This is one of the reasons it frustrates so many people who want a clean game and are disappointed with the Essendon campaign to avoid being sanctioned .

It's simple - the players were given a tb4 by a clown scientist who thought he was ahead of the game and wasn't .

And the club should never have allowed a risky program like that .

Cop the whack and move on .

There are many here including myself who would want all officials coaches etc involved if it happened at our club banned for life no matter who it was . There is a bigger picture here and Essendon have been selfish and arrogant to fight the inevitable

yes I have of course read the article where Dank refers to tb4. It's troubling. But are you aware that that interview was 12 months after he was interviewed by the ACC when he would most certainly have been aware of the status of tb4?

all of your questions are based on the premise that EFC cheated. Do you expect me to debate with that as an assumption? Really?

I don't support drugs in sport, no. But as it stands we have one out of one decision which didn't find the players guilty...

No they don't, you are simply avoiding the questions. Would be good to answer them Lance

yes I have of course read the article where Dank refers to tb4. It's troubling. But are you aware that that interview was 12 months after he was interviewed by the ACC when he would most certainly have been aware of the status of tb4?

Why would he have been, did the ACC tell him that? That argument makes no sense!

No they don't, you are simply avoiding the questions. Would be good to answer them Lance

right.

No.

No. That's a flawed question since there was never "no records"

No. Clearly not since I've already stated in this thread my opinion it should be considered a new class of ADRV

Irrelelevant and a strawman argument, see previous response

No

There you go

right.

No.

No. That's a flawed question since there was never "no records"

No. Clearly not since I've already stated in this thread my opinion it should be considered a new class of ADRV

Irrelelevant and a strawman argument, see previous response

No

There you go

So if there were records, where are they, and don't tell me ASADA has them, if ASADA have them then Essendon have them, where are they.

The only way the deplorable (tribunal word, not mine) records are the only ones taken is if the EFC really were stupid enough to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a program with nothing built in to find out if it works. Ridiculous assertion.

What is your opinion on the missing records lance?

From my point of view it's highly unlikely Essendon wouldn't have had any issue producing records if all was above board, so trying to stay open minded about the situation it's so difficult to comprehend how a professional sporting organisation could have forgotten/lost records of such a program, and The idea ASADA destroyed/lost them is ridiculous, if smoking gun evidence existed of the bombers innocence they'd have made 1,000 copies and given them to anyone who would listen.

Not having a go at your view but I am curious to see/hear a well constructed argument from the bombers being innocent angle

Why would he have been, did the ACC tell him that? That argument makes no sense!

https://www.crimecommission.gov.au/sites/default/files/organised-crime-and-drugs-in-sports-feb2013.pdf

page 16. It clearly states tb4 is an S2 substance. Released in Feb 2013.

McKenzie interview with Dank "The Science of Stephen Dank" conducted in April 2013.

So if there were records, where are they, and don't tell me ASADA has them, if ASADA have them then Essendon have them, where are they.

The only way the deplorable (tribunal word, not mine) records are the only ones taken is if the EFC really were stupid enough to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a program with nothing built in to find out if it works. Ridiculous assertion.

it is rather.

But so is the idea that EFC were capable of conducting such an effective deletion of said records that even forensic investigators at Deloitte were unable to find them

My 2 bobs worth

CAS will examine "ALL THE EVIDENCE"

yes I have of course read the article where Dank refers to tb4. It's troubling. But are you aware that that interview was 12 months after he was interviewed by the ACC when he would most certainly have been aware of the status of tb4?

The blackest day in sport conference took place 7 months after the interview with The age . Dank has always refused to clear anything up with ASADA or the afl refusing to be interviewed . Tb4 was in a 'catch all ' categorie banning it for human use and he was told so by the people Dank called idiots asada and wada in email in 2012 .

The tribunal was also comfortable that tb4 was always banned . Tb4 was the cornerstone of the program as Dank had said via text to the weapon .

What is your opinion on the missing records lance?

From my point of view it's highly unlikely Essendon wouldn't have had any issue producing records if all was above board, so trying to stay open minded about the situation it's so difficult to comprehend how a professional sporting organisation could have forgotten/lost records of such a program, and The idea ASADA destroyed/lost them is ridiculous, if smoking gun evidence existed of the bombers innocence they'd have made 1,000 copies and given them to anyone who would listen.

Not having a go at your view but I am curious to see/hear a well constructed argument from the bombers being innocent angle

well, see, I am not asserting that EFC are necessairly innocent. Personally I think there is a good chance, based on the available evidence, that the scenario of Dank thinking he's too clever by half and thining he can use substances like AOD and tb4 by using the S0 loophole. It's a false dichotomy used by so many people in this debate that you must be either firmly of the belief that EFC are evil and guilty of drug-taking with no possibility thats the case; or that you believe EFC are a victimised innocent entity run by a coach who's [censored] doesn't stink.

Things are rarely so black and white in the real world.

The records, such as they are, were clearly catastrophically insufficient. Whether that's because of incompetence, or cheating, or a byproduct of EFC being used by other parties who sell the exact same substances remains to be seen

FIFA, Essendon and the Church. The world is changing in the Blink of Someone's eye....

Has Hird been beatified as St James the Innocent?

it is rather.

But so is the idea that EFC were capable of conducting such an effective deletion of said records that even forensic investigators at Deloitte were unable to find them

There are still no records. Make sense man. What is your point. Explain it to me in words and logic a humble football supporter can understand. How can it be OK for there to be no records and no explanation of where they might have gone?

it is rather.

But so is the idea that EFC were capable of conducting such an effective deletion of said records that even forensic investigators at Deloitte were unable to find them

not too hard for an it specialist at all, lance

next time you want records to disappear and foil forensic investigators, let me know and i'll help you

you've been watching too many american crime tv series

it is rather.

But so is the idea that EFC were capable of conducting such an effective deletion of said records that even forensic investigators at Deloitte were unable to find them

That is really easy if they were on paper, or a laptop, or someone else's computer. Where are they lance? You said they exist, where are they?

https://www.crimecommission.gov.au/sites/default/files/organised-crime-and-drugs-in-sports-feb2013.pdf

page 16. It clearly states tb4 is an S2 substance. Released in Feb 2013.

McKenzie interview with Dank "The Science of Stephen Dank" conducted in April 2013.

So now you are relying on Dank having read a report which he quite possibly has not read, and probably hasn't given his complete distaste for anything authoritarian.

Your argument makes no sense.