On 02/12/2013 at 22:06, Carrot Top said:

Met a fella in the NT who was a tunnel rat. We were drinking buddies for the three years I was there. He was a really nice guy, but at the same time he was NQR. Odd emotional reactions to things that didn't seem important, and cold to thing that did. Sometimes we'd all be drinking and laughing about something, and he'd go quiet for a bit and then just walk away and stand off by himself. Later he'd join back in the group as if he'd never left.

It was sad and disconcerting to see a person that was one of nature's nice guys so lost, and knowing there was something broken inside him that could never be fixed.

Dragging kids out of suburbia to fight a jungle war for reasons even the powers the be couldn't explain properly was never going to end well.

You mean somebody with normal character traits and reactions if they are out drinking, I know a few dozen blokes who do this

Think you have watched too many films

The only problem I have with a lot of the Vietnam Vets especially the 'vocal' ones, is that most of them never got out of Saigon or off the airbase

Remember Bruce Ruxton?.....never left Darwin

If you want to question involvement try studying it properly, if the 'West" hadn't acted, China would today consist of both Koreas, Malaysia and Singapore, Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos

And yes I have a right to say that, 15 years in the military

  On 02/12/2013 at 09:20, dee-luded said:

on the surface; I think underneath all the distractions of competing against one another, & trying to outdo one another, that same built in genetic program is still in there, deep down. in the generational aussies.

the recent immigrants, I'm not so confident... life is cheap is all they know.

I have read this post a few times to make sure i'm not misreading it (and to do my best to give some benefit of doubt).

But it is very hard not to come to the conclusion that this disturbing and offensive post is simply another example of how inherently racist Australia is and how far we have to go as a country .

  On 02/12/2013 at 22:06, Carrot Top said:

Met a fella in the NT who was a tunnel rat. We were drinking buddies for the three years I was there. He was a really nice guy, but at the same time he was NQR. Odd emotional reactions to things that didn't seem important, and cold to thing that did. Sometimes we'd all be drinking and laughing about something, and he'd go quiet for a bit and then just walk away and stand off by himself. Later he'd join back in the group as if he'd never left.

It was sad and disconcerting to see a person that was one of nature's nice guys so lost, and knowing there was something broken inside him that could never be fixed.

Dragging kids out of suburbia to fight a jungle war for reasons even the powers the be couldn't explain properly was never going to end well.

Well said CT. I will never forger seeing the Tunnels. Not just the small diameter of them but the humidity...fully booby trapped.

The Viet families lived down there for weeks, the young soldiers would have gone mad.

They were invading a country and didn't know why?

The Viets were just protecting their land.

And then when our young aussies returned home they were shunned.

I was so glad to realize last year their is no lingering bitterness towards what happened towards Australia.

I found everyone so friendly. It was humbling.

I will return.

  On 02/12/2013 at 22:51, binman said:

I have read this post a few times to make sure i'm not misreading it (and to do my best to give some benefit of doubt).

But it is very hard not to come to the conclusion that this disturbing and offensive post is simply another example of how inherently racist Australia is and how far we have to go as a country .

What, you have only just realised this, Carroll unfortunately, and not knowing the full circumstances, is the face of modern Australia.....and the post as well

  On 02/12/2013 at 22:43, Satyriconhome said:

You mean somebody with normal character traits and reactions if they are out driinking, I know a few dozen blokes who do this

Think you have watched too many films

The only problem I have with a lot of the Vietnam Vets especially the 'vocal' ones, is that most of them never got out of Saigon or off the airbase

Remember Bruce Ruxton?.....never left Darwin

If you want to question involvment try studying it properly, if the 'West" hadn't acted, China would today consist of both Koreas, Malaysia and Singapore, Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos

And yes I have a right to say that, 15 years in the military

Well bully for you. 15 years in the military obviously didn't teach you about geo politics or history. If it had you might remember the Sino-Vietnamese War of 79, or how Vietnam toppled the (Chinese backed) Khmer Rouge. So much for Chinese hegemony, eh?

And he wasn't 'vocal' vet. I'd known him for the best part of a year before the subject came up. We were swimming, and it was me asking him about the nasty scar he had running from the back of his thigh right up to the middle of his back. Turned out he'd been on the turps on R&R and was in a car accident that lost him a kidney and nearly killed him. Took another bunch of months for him to tell me he'd been a tunnel rat and that it was the most horrible part of his life. And that was pretty much all he ever said on the matter.

And no, 15 or 50 years in the military doesn't give you the right to [censored] on vets. And it certainly doesn't give you bonus points when parrot discredited propaganda,

  On 02/12/2013 at 22:43, Satyriconhome said:

You mean somebody with normal character traits and reactions if they are out drinking, I know a few dozen blokes who do this

Think you have watched too many films

The only problem I have with a lot of the Vietnam Vets especially the 'vocal' ones, is that most of them never got out of Saigon or off the airbase

Remember Bruce Ruxton?.....never left Darwin

If you want to question involvement try studying it properly, if the 'West" hadn't acted, China would today consist of both Koreas, Malaysia and Singapore, Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos

And yes I have a right to say that, 15 years in the military

All the way with LBJ hey Satyr....

  On 02/12/2013 at 21:41, daisycutter said:

I'm an expert on bali biffospent a week there 40 years agowhat do you want to know?

First time I went was Jan 1976 dc

Have been back a number of times since.

It has under gone a massive change in that time.

Most for the Worse IMO.

Don't like it now.

Main problem is too many yobo Aussies.

  On 02/12/2013 at 23:10, Carrot Top said:

Well bully for you. 15 years in the military obviously didn't teach you about geo politics or history. If it had you might remember the Sino-Vietnamese War of 79, or how Vietnam toppled the (Chinese backed) Khmer Rouge. So much for Chinese hegemony, eh?

And he wasn't 'vocal' vet. I'd known him for the best part of a year before the subject came up. We were swimming, and it was me asking him about the nasty scar he had running from the back of his thigh right up to the middle of his back. Turned out he'd been on the turps on R&R and was in a car accident that lost him a kidney and nearly killed him. Took another bunch of months for him to tell me he'd been a tunnel rat and that it was the most horrible part of his life. And that was pretty much all he ever said on the matter.

And no, 15 or 50 years in the military doesn't give you the right to [censored] on vets. And it certainly doesn't give you bonus points when parrot discredited propaganda,

Sorry forgot how far we lean to the left on here......

the Vietnamese had fought for their freedom, the last thing they wanted was the Khmer Rouge taking over, they were a spent force by then anyway, being carpet bombed by B52's will do that to you......try reading again

By the way the tunnel rats were all volunteers, nobody forced them, I know because I have known a couple

  On 02/12/2013 at 23:26, old dee said:

First time I went was Jan 1976 dc

Have been back a number of times since.

It has under gone a massive change in that time.

Most for the Worse IMO.

Don't like it now.

Main problem is too many yobo Aussies.

Last line is perfect Old Dee, gold

  On 02/12/2013 at 23:33, Satyriconhome said:

Last line is perfect Old Dee, gold

Probably the main problem in Australia too Saty.

But that is another subject.

  On 02/12/2013 at 23:32, Satyriconhome said:

Sorry forgot how far we lean to the left on here......

the Vietnamese had fought for their freedom, the last thing they wanted was the Khmer Rouge taking over, they were a spent force by then anyway, being carpet bombed by B52's will do that to you......try reading again

By the way the tunnel rats were all volunteers, nobody forced them, I know because I have known a couple

Never voted left in my life laddie. And never will.

Never said he wasn't forced. I really wouldn't know as the conversations with the 'vocal' vet never got that far. Unlike you I was happy to let it rest rather that accuse him of lying because I did 15 years as an air force clerk.

And you really have no idea about what you are talking about re: B52 raids. The last B52 raid into Cambodia was in 1973. The KM took control in 1975. The KM was toppled by the Vietnamese in 1979.

You're playing me on my home ground, and you're kicking into a gale. Are you sure you want to continue this game?

  On 02/12/2013 at 15:13, Undeeterred said:

All I said was that maybe he is a d!ckhead and I'd say the evidence supports that. In my experience, people who turn up in the Magis Court in the morning with no shoes, accused of pummelling strangers on the street, usually are d1ckheads, regardless of their background. I'm sure Carroll's was horrible, but grown men have no excuse for acts of random violence on the streets and I, for one, won't make excuses for them. That doesn't mean I'm sinking the boot in, I'm just being civilised.

The reason I weighed back into this thread was because I wanted to read about Nathan Carroll (who, incidentally, I loved watching play), rather than the Vietnam war, movies, the anti-war movement, the damage it did to very vulnerable young men and the complete futility of the whole thing.

I know all that - I read this forum for football news, not so much for history lessons (unless it is about MFC history, which is fantastic).

there are plenty of people who were kids damaged by bullying behaviours in their young years who just haven't been able to develop well. this is a trade off of the nuclear family.

in a tribal situation there would be a togetherness that supports those who struggle to get better, so IMO the kids get a more balanced growth.

in our world when some kids fall into the cracks there aren't many people willing to stand up for them, & to help them feel valued & become well balanced. we tend to give empathy to the kids until they are physically fully grown then we pull it away like pulling the rug from under the feet. the females enjoy the empathy throughout mostly.

our society loves to point the finger at those who can't manage to get by & end up making big noise. black hat - white hat. we are brainwashed into thinking you are good or bad. but what about the damage done by the goody goodies, pointing the finger at a personal level at those who are down & out? Are these goody goodies just as bad???

where does the comprehension of the psychological harm issues done to these kids in big bodies come from? & then the enmpathy that should come from the understanding of how these things work?

why don't you take yourself off to an anger management course to see for yourself, & to learn some stuff you may find interesting & useful.

Nathan is a product of his history, even a victim of it. I'm not saying he deserves our compassion, because compassion is something you give to people even when they don't deserve it. But if he is punished, it won't be for his history, it will be for assault.

  On 02/12/2013 at 23:46, Carrot Top said:

Never voted left in my life laddie. And never will.

Never said he wasn't forced. I really wouldn't know as the conversations with the 'vocal' vet never got that far. Unlike you I was happy to let it rest rather that accuse him of lying because I did 15 years as an air force clerk.

And you really have no idea about what you are talking about re: B52 raids. The last B52 raid into Cambodia was in 1973. The KM took control in 1975. The KM was toppled by the Vietnamese in 1979.

You're playing me on my home ground, and you're kicking into a gale. Are you sure you want to continue this game?

I didn't say he was a liar, I said he had a choice

As long as you believe the four year 'secret' bombing that the US admitted to is and was the end of it, that's up to you

The CIA was and is active in the Indo China Peninsula, from the early 50's to now

So was the Khmer, although under different names

So I think I got it.

Carroll was arrested by the Khmer Rouge and the CIA is planning an extraction?

  On 03/12/2013 at 00:12, Elusive Tunbridge said:

Nathan is a product of his history, even a victim of it. I'm not saying he deserves our compassion, because compassion is something you give to people even when they don't deserve it. But if he is punished, it won't be for his history, it will be for assault.

yes but any punishment will come from the courts. but what about all the people who have their needles out sticking them to their NCarroll dolls? and the perception damaged people get from this attitude?

it doesn't just hurt the one who is in the firing line, it hurts all those who are damaged & struggling to cope, just reading peoples lack of understanding & empathy which in turn then slowly builds an communal psychological environment of fear & distrust, putting even more pressure on those who feel pointed at.

This is at the beginning of community social breakdown.

  On 03/12/2013 at 00:18, Satyriconhome said:

I didn't say he was a liar, I said he had a choice

Bollocks. You made that swarmy Bruce Ruxton reference, and that 'vocal' vet call. You painted him a fraud without knowing anything but a guarded paragraph or two.

But if the mods would be so kind as to split this into the off topic section, I'd appreciate it. As a history grad - with a special interest in military history and politics, I'd love to give you the schooling you so deserve.

You watch too many movies... you need to read more...

And I note you didn't address the B52 facts that you were caught with your hand down your pants on.

  On 03/12/2013 at 00:35, Carrot Top said:

Bollocks. You made that swarmy Bruce Ruxton reference, and that 'vocal' vet call. You painted him a fraud without knowing anything but a guarded paragraph or two.

But if the mods would be so kind as to split this into the off topic section, I'd appreciate it. As a history grad - with a special interest in military history and politics, I'd love to give you the schooling you so deserve.

You watch too many movies... you need to read more...

And I note you didn't address the B52 facts that you were caught with your hand down your pants on.

Military history written by who? Please I've lived the 50's onwards, I don't need to study it, and I have had many conversations with a myriad of participants as well, I don't need to go to university, a degree is not a piece of paper that states "you are right in everything", far from it

I am actually offering an opinion on what I have encountered with the more vocal vets, similar to the story you are proferring about the vet you met, Same as you are allowed to, but if you put it out there, it can be questioned

Ruxton did not leave Darwin by the way, it is a matter of public record

B52 facts, like a lot of US involvement, depends on your definition of facts

I touch type by the way, one interesting skill the military taught me, so I need both hands whilst I am doing it

  On 03/12/2013 at 00:27, dee-luded said:

yes but any punishment will come from the courts. but what about all the people who have their needles out sticking them to their NCarroll dolls? and the perception damaged people get from this attitude?

it doesn't just hurt the one who is in the firing line, it hurts all those who are damaged & struggling to cope, just reading peoples lack of understanding & empathy which in turn then slowly builds an communal psychological environment of fear & distrust, putting even more pressure on those who feel pointed at.

This is at the beginning of community social breakdown.

The old dog at my homework excuse, you will find a lot of posters have actually struggled at some time in their life, but dug there way out of it, hence the lack of empathy for those who seek to blame anybody but themselves

  On 03/12/2013 at 00:42, Satyriconhome said:

The old dog at my homework excuse, you will find a lot of posters have actually struggled at some time in their life, but dug there way out of it, hence the lack of empathy for those who seek to blame anybody but themselves

of course many have suffered & dug themselves somewhat out of a hole, some completely out & some part way out. & some fall back in unable to get themselves out.

But who is the judge on just how bad they are damaged to fall into a hole in the first place, & how even an effort is needed to clamber up & out?

it sounds like you are making excuses for poor behaviour aimed at those who are constantly struggling through their inner pain.

forgiveness is a necessary, & empathy should go hand in hand with this attitude. if the desire is to heal.

if the desire is to harm, then keep throwing rocks.

  On 03/12/2013 at 00:42, Satyriconhome said:

Military history written by who? Please I've lived the 50's onwards, I don't need to study it, and I have had many conversations with a myriad of participants as well, I don't need to go to university, a degree is not a piece of paper that states "you are right in everything", far from it

I am actually offering an opinion on what I have encountered with the more vocal vets, similar to the story you are proferring about the vet you met, Same as you are allowed to, but if you put it out there, it can be questioned

Ruxton did not leave Darwin by the way, it is a matter of public record

B52 facts, like a lot of US involvement, depends on your definition of facts

I touch type by the way, one interesting skill the military taught me, so I need both hands whilst I am doing it

The old dog at my homework excuse, you will find a lot of posters have actually struggled at some time in their life, but dug there way out of it, hence the lack of empathy for those who seek to blame anybody but themselves

Must say dee-luded and I are in agreement here Saty.

We can all see that Carroll was an idiot and the courts will punish him.

The discussion has become more "Why?"

It's the same with Jurrah thread , and the C Brown thread

Nobody here condones belting randoms in the street .

people can see NC has an issue from this behaviour(I think his career ended because he belted Ben Holland).

Even he would know(I hope) he has issues.

If he cant see it then unfortunately he will do time in Her Majesties ,and so should he.

There are no excuses for the guy but if he begins to learn there is hope.

  On 03/12/2013 at 02:01, Biffen said:

We can all see that Carroll was an idiot and the courts will punish him.

The discussion has become more "Why?".

Nobody here condones belting randoms in the street .

There are no excuses for the guy but if he begins to learn there is hope.

Agree with this, but in so many discussions like this, people can't tell the difference between a reason and an excuse.

  On 03/12/2013 at 00:42, Satyriconhome said:

Military history written by who? Please I've lived the 50's onwards, I don't need to study it, and I have had many conversations with a myriad of participants as well, I don't need to go to university, a degree is not a piece of paper that states "you are right in everything", far from it

I am actually offering an opinion on what I have encountered with the more vocal vets, similar to the story you are proferring about the vet you met, Same as you are allowed to, but if you put it out there, it can be questioned

Ruxton did not leave Darwin by the way, it is a matter of public record

B52 facts, like a lot of US involvement, depends on your definition of facts

I touch type by the way, one interesting skill the military taught me, so I need both hands whilst I am doing it

The old dog at my homework excuse, you will find a lot of posters have actually struggled at some time in their life, but dug there way out of it, hence the lack of empathy for those who seek to blame anybody but themselves

Well, Stayathome, if you've used the same judgment of what and who you choose to believe, as that which you've displayed in recent years in regards to MFC, I'd say you've probably been fed a rich vein of bull**** and been left licking your lips, asking for seconds.

It's really hard to take you seriously when you appear to arbitrarily take a stance in juxtaposition to common sense and or decency, and then argue it voiciferously until you beat your "opposition" into submission by boredom.

  On 03/12/2013 at 02:17, Machsy said:

Well, Stayathome, if you've used the same judgment of what and who you choose to believe, as that which you've displayed in recent years in regards to MFC, I'd say you've probably been fed a rich vein of bull**** and been left licking your lips, asking for seconds.

It's really hard to take you seriously when you appear to arbitrarily take a stance in juxtaposition to common sense and or decency, and then argue it voiciferously until you beat your "opposition" into submission by boredom.

Lot's of words saying what exactly, you don't agree with me, that's five you could have used

MFC is footy, I support the Club, I have explained that before, you support the incumbents.........do you really think I accepted a lot of what was said, what was said didn't matter.....in the end other people make the calls about a footy club

Same as in life, just not a supporter of people who go through life using the "dog ate my homework" excuse.......we have all been there done that to some extent and don't use it

What is decency, whose definition, certainly not the 'decency' peddled on programs such as Today Tonight or a Current Affair which is where a lot of Australia's fine citizens seem to get there opinions, although they flip flop each day depending on what the editors of the above think will rate more

Told everybody on here before, if you don't like what I type, then don't read it, nobody is holding a gun to your head, and don't answer, it is a so called demoncracy and I am entitled to my own opinions

I skip quite a few posters on here, not really interested in anything they have got to say

And as I have said before do not need any posters approval to feel good or otherwise about myself

I am more impressed on this topic than some of the more usual footy ones as there has been a vigorous debate with only one or two small descents in personal abuse, a refreshing change.

Nice rant.

Thing is, you may have "lived" the 50s, but you "lived" the MFC of 2007-2013, and we all are aware how you've chosen to interpret and present that era, over time.

i.e. just because you "lived" it, doesn't mean you knew what the hell was going on.

I just wonder if, based on that, we can trust your judgment on anything else?

I think, although you may not like to hear it, it's a fair observation.

  On 03/12/2013 at 02:34, Machsy said:

Nice rant.

Thing is, you may have "lived" the 50s, but you "lived" the MFC of 2007-2013, and we all are aware how you've chosen to interpret and present that era, over time.

i.e. just because you "lived" it, doesn't mean you knew what the hell was going on.

I just wonder if, based on that, we can trust your judgment on anything else?

I think, although you may not like to hear it, it's a fair observation.

The 2007-2013 era I interpret as history, perhaps everybody else should