Isn't it two or more?

Yes, I think you're right.

I understand all that but I don't believe it says they destroyed the records.

To me it says they were just haphazard and incompetent.

Is that not the case?

you are generally more cynical than that od

do you really think you could run a program with those large numbers on so many people for such a long time at such a big cost without records?

how would you even measure the effectiveness of a costly program without records

there had to be many records. the club cannot find those records......put 2 and 2 together

OldDee, if firm evidence ever comes out proving that they did destroy records, they will be in massive trouble.

But if I had to bet on whether they simply never kept any or did keep them but destroyed them when the excrement started to hit the fan, I know where I'd put my money. As I said it's not conspiracy vs stuff-up, it's Incompetence versus cover-up. I don't think Essendon would be that incompetent.

The whole Mengelean like affair was supposed to effectively be a controlled experiment to evaluate outcomes vis a vis controlled dosages. The ONLY way to evaluate that is to measure bu recorded outcomes against what ever the poor sods were pumped with. There would HAVE to have been records or the whole thing was a waste of time, by anyones standards or motives.

They destroyed the evidence or hid it...Holmes would concur this as being the only logical deduction.

you are generally more cynical than that od

do you really think you could run a program with those large numbers on so many people for such a long time at such a big cost without records?

how would you even measure the effectiveness of a costly program without records

there had to be many records. the club cannot find those records......put 2 and 2 together

Four is the answer, we know that, but if you don't show the working out some people will not accept the answer. You may say they are pedantic (not you OD) I say that technically they are correct (Yes you OD). For without the working out (detail) how can you prove the answer. So for many of us knowing the answer is enough. But that is not so for all.

This one suspects there were no records.

It appears to me that the whole thing was haphazard with no one controlling it, everyone thought someone else was doing it.

It is my experience that most great conspiracy's were in actual fact just incompetent stuff ups.

Agree with your conspiracy theory but in this case I think they were running an experiment and when you do that you keep records because you want to know what works and what doesn't.

Remember they didn't think they were doing anything wrong so there was no need not to keep records or destroy records.

Still the two biggest stand out things for me are why workcover isn't involved and why they haven't interviewed Dank. Something smells.

Agree with your conspiracy theory but in this case I think they were running an experiment and when you do that you keep records because you want to know what works and what doesn't.

Remember they didn't think they were doing anything wrong so there was no need not to keep records or destroy records.

Still the two biggest stand out things for me are why workcover isn't involved and why they haven't interviewed Dank. Something smells.

You are not the only one wondering about workcover. I think it will come. I think it is a matter of getting ones ducks in a line.

https://theconversation.com/time-for-ohs-regulators-to-get-off-the-bench-and-into-the-game-17039

OldDee, if firm evidence ever comes out proving that they did destroy records, they will be in massive trouble.

I don't think Essendon would be that incompetent.

Agree Sue. If there is evidence of record destruction then EFC are in big trouble. If anyone can remember Arthur Andersen auditors shredding records when Enron collapsed in 2001 it brought the collapse of the global accounting firm. However I don't think there is any evidence at this stage of record destruction. OD is right on this one.

And in the past three years I have stopped being surprised at the incompetence at times of football clubs. It is still plausible that EFC have been incredibly incompetent at a number of levels.

Agree with your conspiracy theory but in this case I think they were running an experiment and when you do that you keep records because you want to know what works and what doesn't.

Remember they didn't think they were doing anything wrong so there was no need not to keep records or

Conversely, Its also possible that they did not see the need to keep adequate records. Sinister is a possible outcome but so is (incredibly) incompetent, cavalier and slipshod.

Despite some resorting to equation it's not proven on what we know as to what actually happened. I am hoping ASADA can answer these issues. If ASADA does resolve to issues notices then due questions will be raised why they have not did not interview Dank. I suspect that Workcover will wait for the outcome of the ASADA investigation. What would you expect Workcover to do above and beyond ASADAs remit especially when there is an absence of records.

Why on earth would you NOT have records when the whole exercise is based upon prescribed (sic) inputs and logged outputs

They were trying to create the Master Race as it applies to footy.

Theres records... to think otherwise is really naive

Remaining Essendon players plus 1 50 + game player from each of the other clubs. Remember Ted Fidge? I would offer Byrnes. NOTE:-This is pure speculation.

geez, your generous

maybe dunn could captain them.

Maybe the Don's penalty should be to play 8 games in Tassie for ten years, and a name change to the "Tassie Bombers" with a logo of a bomber dropping it's load on the map of tasmania!

Maybe they're punishment should be to Lose the ANZAC day fixture.

..... which should go Into a Rotational policy,,, for last seasons 3rd & 4th finishing teams.

Oh i heard all this stuff before Ad';s retirement announcement. I think the Essendon situation has hastened his exit but that is all. AD in my view still is trying to sort through all this in the best interests of the Game. It is Hird (egged-on by his lawyer wife) who has made this outcome so much worse than it need be, not least for Hird himself. She may be a good lawyer, but she has no idea of how to play the political game, and no idea about how to get the best outcome for her husband. By her actions, she has condemned him to obscurity. He will never work again in the AFL industry.

maybe she'll destroy his afl reputation, then get unhappy & leave him; in tatters

# re Vlad I think this announcement would have been planned for months. to be announced now before the season kickoff,,, before those against him & for the 'hird camp' have a chance to make loud noises calling for him to be removed.

its gonna get dirty from here & I sense the gloves coming off,,,, bring it on !!! love a good fight.

I dont really care if Essendon disappear...its called evolution Thoughout the history of the league, teams come and go.

Another team can come in...and the grass will still be green, posts still white...game will go on

you are generally more cynical than that od

do you really think you could run a program with those large numbers on so many people for such a long time at such a big cost without records?

how would you even measure the effectiveness of a costly program without records

there had to be many records. the club cannot find those records......put 2 and 2 together

I said haphazad and incompetent dc.

Isn't that what you describe above.

Can you show me where anyone in authority has said they destroyed records?

Now they may have but not one has said that.

If someone can find among the reams written on this saga a commnet that they believe the records were destroyed then I will retract.

But right now I don't believe that comment has been made.

Remaining Essendon players plus 1 50 + game player from each of the other clubs. Remember Ted Fidge? I would offer Byrnes. NOTE:-This is pure speculation.

Plus we will pay his salary for the balance of 2014 and add $50k for the 2015 season.

Thanks for the clarification, has any sporting body not adopted the penalties? Then what?

The Kazakstan cycling federation gave Vinokourov a token ban (1 year) for a blood-doping infringement. UCI then came in over the top, and appealed to CAS, who imposed the standard 2 year ban. Similar in the Shoaib Akhtar case, but CAS wouldn't take on the WADA appeal, as the Pakistani Cricket Board hadn't signed up to the WADA code.

There are other examples, though none of late to my knowledge. The message seems to be getting through.

I said haphazad and incompetent dc.

Isn't that what you describe above.

Can you show me where anyone in authority has said they destroyed records?

Now they may have but not one has said that.

If someone can find among the reams written on this saga a commnet that they believe the records were destroyed then I will retract.

But right now I don't believe that comment has been made.

you know well why no-one has or would actually say records were destroyed

i'm not saying they have been destroyed or waylaid either, just saying they must have existed in order to execute the program and now they are not available and there aren't too many other explanations

it is also seems that essendon has been un-cooperative and obstructive in other ways as well as being in denial of some very basic facts

"the players health was not put at risk at any time and no we don't actually know what the players were injected with but it was all legal"

"sorry we can't find any records of who, what, when or where but it was all handled very professionally and the players welfare was always uppermost"

(paraphrasing)

anyway believe what you want, each to his own. we are only sitting on the outside looking in. the media are not too helpful

The Kazakstan cycling federation gave Vinokourov a token ban (1 year) for a blood-doping infringement. UCI then came in over the top, and appealed to CAS, who imposed the standard 2 year ban. Similar in the Shoaib Akhtar case, but CAS wouldn't take on the WADA appeal, as the Pakistani Cricket Board hadn't signed up to the WADA code.

There are other examples, though none of late to my knowledge. The message seems to be getting through.

As I see it bing a difference is that AFL is an Australian only game.

In the examples you sight they can bar the Country bodies from world competition.

That is not going to be much of a threat to the AFL .

So they bar the AFL from international competition.

They would be mortified

As I see it bing a difference is that AFL is an Australian only game.

In the examples you sight they can bar the Country bodies from world competition.

That is not going to be much of a threat to the AFL .

So they bar the AFL from international competition.

They would be mortified

we've covered this before od in previous threads

wada can bring a lot of pressure on the afl through various means if they need to

My understanding is that as far as possible they only want infraction notices issued that are as iron clad as possible.

I will be surprised if the notices go ahead.

Perhaps. But the other body with an active interest here is WADA, who review all cases whether notices are issued or not. If they feel that notices should have been issued and weren't for whatever reason, there'll be some explaining to do, and appeals if necessary (from WADA).

As I see it bing a difference is that AFL is an Australian only game.

In the examples you sight they can bar the Country bodies from world competition.

That is not going to be much of a threat to the AFL .

So they bar the AFL from international competition.

They would be mortified

It goes much further than that, they can start banning Australian athletes and teams from participating in other competitions.

you know well why no-one has or would actually say records were destroyed

i'm not saying they have been destroyed or waylaid either, just saying they must have existed in order to execute the program and now they are not available and there aren't too many other explanations

it is also seems that essendon has been un-cooperative and obstructive in other ways as well as being in denial of some very basic facts

"the players health was not put at risk at any time and no we don't actually know what the players were injected with but it was all legal"

"sorry we can't find any records of who, what, when or where but it was all handled very professionally and the players welfare was always uppermost"

(paraphrasing)

anyway believe what you want, each to his own. we are only sitting on the outside looking in. the media are not too helpful

dc I am not trying to defend the EFC in any way.

What I am saying just because it would be the correct thing to record information to determine if and what got results does not mean it happened.

I get the feeling that this was not done correctly from the start. IMO they were reckless, incompetent, cavalier and endangered the health of their players.

Until proven otherwise I don't believe they destroyed records because I don't believe any of substance existed in the first place.

It is not a case IMO of me believing whatever I want I just see no evidence or comment at this stage that they destroyed records.

Lets hope we find out close to the truth in the next few months.

It goes much further than that, they can start banning Australian athletes and teams from participating in other competitions.

That threat hold some water bing

Perhaps. But the other body with an active interest here is WADA, who review all cases whether notices are issued or not. If they feel that notices should have been issued and weren't for whatever reason, there'll be some explaining to do, and appeals if necessary (from WADA).

That is my point bing. the notices need to be solid or they wont be issued.

That is my point bing. the notices need to be solid or they wont be issued.

i don't understand this "solid" bull-tish

they always have to be solid. there is nothing special or different here for essendon

asada is full of legal experts without this new judge so i'd expect whatever they have come up with to be professionally prepared

remember too under wada code which signatories sign up to, the burden of proof is less rigorous for asada than normal courts