On 16/11/2013 at 11:30, The Hood said:

Do the allegations given their timing involve the ALP or just people at the time who were members of unions, legal companies and maybe junior members of the party at the time? We're Bob Hawke or Keating in on this as well?

Is that a serious question?

Do you walk around with your head up your ass?

Have a look earlier in the thread if you want some of the Labour Party's criminal activities. Eddie Obeid Joe Tripodi just the latest in a long line.

Anyway that's me for the time being.

Just remember the truth is the truth no matter what the source and your constant dismissal of anything that comes out of the Murdoch press is just you being delusional; this will all play out in time and you may just look a little foolish.

You are looking like an apologist for the Labor Party.

And it appears he steals from the Australian Tax payer

Oh RobbieF would then say the whole party is corrupt and should be dismissed from office or because he in his Party this is OK?

  On 16/11/2013 at 20:34, TheBigFrog said:

And it appears he steals from the Australian Tax payer

Oh RobbieF would then say the whole party is corrupt and should be dismissed from office or because he in his Party this is OK?

you don't understand frogman

Robbie is a mild mannered gentleman

his bookkeeper is the one firing the shots from an inhouse computer

I fear the said bookkeeper is a closet Essendon fan and a bleeding heart liberal

nothing like an ideologue scratching the bottom of the barrel

  On 16/11/2013 at 11:04, Ben-Hur said:

It didn't surprise me that Tony was gracious, just that I disagreed with his sentiments. The left love to demonise Abbott, but the plain truth of the matter is that he's a very decent human being.

Oh yeah, he's a real softy.

So generous is he that he donates boats to a country with a shocking history of human rights abuses so that they can prevent the efforts of innocent Tamils attempting to flee persecution, all under the pretence of "stopping this evil trade of people smuggling". So not only is he choosing not to condemn Sri Lanka's behaviour, he's ASSISTING it. The word "disgraceful" eventually loses all meaning when you use it so often, but with Abbott it's so often appropriate.

Tone couldn't give two shits about lives lost at sea. It's insulting for him to suggest some noble cause behind his "stop the boats" tirades. A decent human being? You've deadset got to be having a laugh. For a renowned Christian, his attitude could not be more Un-Christian like if he tried. He's not even giving genuine refugees a chance to state their case.

Make absolutely no mistake, your idol is a dangerous man Benny. He has his ideologies and if you stand in his way, you are shown no mercy.

  On 16/11/2013 at 11:45, RobbieF said:

Is that a serious question?

Do you walk around with your head up your ass?

Have a look earlier in the thread if you want some of the Labour Party's criminal activities. Eddie Obeid Joe Tripodi just the latest in a long line.

Anyway that's me for the time being.

Just remember the truth is the truth no matter what the source and your constant dismissal of anything that comes out of the Murdoch press is just you being delusional; this will all play out in time and you may just look a little foolish.

You are looking like an apologist for the Labor Party.

Gee Robbie let's call a truce I cant keep up with your arguments. i was responding to your extracted articles from the Oz, one of them about the allegations of Julia and her then boyfriend Wilson and a slush fund from a Fitzroy property bought in the 90s. Now you have bought Eddie Obeid into it! I had no idea he was involved. Or are you just dragging everything into the mix to make some point?

The other article on the NBN is a classic. I had another read and can't work out what it is saying. A government project that doesn't pay for itself gee that's new. NPV negative, the private sector wouldn't touch it. Gee I think that is why we have governments. To build basic infrastructure that individuals could never afford. The billion dollar duplication of the Hume Highway, where is the income repayment stream for the Governments investment?

  On 17/11/2013 at 10:04, The Hood said:

The other article on the NBN is a classic. I had another read and can't work out what it is saying. A government project that doesn't pay for itself gee that's new. NPV negative, the private sector wouldn't touch it. Gee I think that is why we have governments. To build basic infrastructure that individuals could never afford. The billion dollar duplication of the Hume Highway, where is the income repayment stream for the Governments investment?

i think you are wilfully missing robbie's point about the nbn

labor initiated the nbn on the premise that it would eventually recoup the costs and maybe turn a profit

shifting the goal posts to suit your prejudice is disingenuous

  On 17/11/2013 at 22:55, daisycutter said:

i think you are wilfully missing robbie's point about the nbn

labor initiated the nbn on the premise that it would eventually recoup the costs and maybe turn a profit

shifting the goal posts to suit your prejudice is disingenuous

That's why it's a waste of time even opening this thread.

  On 18/11/2013 at 00:21, RobbieF said:

That's why it's a waste of time even opening this thread.

Yet you, like myself, keep doing it

The whole discussion is pointless in my opinion as, like him or hate him, we have Abbott for the next few years unless he screws up big time in the eyes of his fellow party members.

  On 17/11/2013 at 08:54, P-man said:

Oh yeah, he's a real softy.

So generous is he that he donates boats to a country with a shocking history of human rights abuses so that they can prevent the efforts of innocent Tamils attempting to flee persecution, all under the pretence of "stopping this evil trade of people smuggling". So not only is he choosing not to condemn Sri Lanka's behaviour, he's ASSISTING it. The word "disgraceful" eventually loses all meaning when you use it so often, but with Abbott it's so often appropriate.

Tone couldn't give two shits about lives lost at sea. It's insulting for him to suggest some noble cause behind his "stop the boats" tirades. A decent human being? You've deadset got to be having a laugh. For a renowned Christian, his attitude could not be more Un-Christian like if he tried. He's not even giving genuine refugees a chance to state their case.

Make absolutely no mistake, your idol is a dangerous man Benny. He has his ideologies and if you stand in his way, you are shown no mercy.

It almost needs it's own thread, the whole 'boats' concept, but really, what are his alternate options?

Everyone knows it's a **** scenario, in an ideal world, noone would need to escape their own country in fear of their life, but the problems are so much more than let's reach out and be good humanitarians. You're correct about his 'noble cause' bull, but I'm yet to hear a theory that see's a beneficial situation for both parties (Australia and Asylum seekers) and am very open minded to hearing one.

  On 18/11/2013 at 04:23, Arrow said:

It almost needs it's own thread, the whole 'boats' concept, but really, what are his alternate options?

Everyone knows it's a **** scenario, in an ideal world, noone would need to escape their own country in fear of their life, but the problems are so much more than let's reach out and be good humanitarians. You're correct about his 'noble cause' bull, but I'm yet to hear a theory that see's a beneficial situation for both parties (Australia and Asylum seekers) and am very open minded to hearing one.

Negotiate with the Sri Lankan government on HOW the boats are to be used, if the true objective is a humanitarian one, and don't just fob it off as being a matter between the two parties. The public deserves to know that its foreign aid budget is not contributing to a regime that has received widespread, international condemnation.

Stopping economic refugees and people smuggling is important as everyone acknowledges, but we're talking about a country with credible accusations of abductions, torture and the murder of civilians to answer for. There are people genuinely fleeing persecution from this country. Cameron has rightly called for an enquiry in order for Sri Lanka to truly move forward. Cameron however is a conservative leader with substance, not a lunatic on the war path towards "stopping the boats", and to hell with the consequences.

Another example of the [censored] that comes out of the Age, they make the insinuation in the headline that it's Abbott that is wasting the money when it was done before he was elected.

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/pms-unused-mansion-costs-taxpayers-3000-a-week-20131118-2xqtv.html

"Stop the waste," Tony Abbott cried endlessly during the federal election, and then made a great show of moving into a little room in Canberra's Australian Police College for $110 a night rather than spend fat money renting a Canberra mansion while The Lodge underwent renovations.

Uh, oh.

Turns out a mansion had already been rented on the taxpayers' docket, and will continue to be rented for a year. For $156,000.

Advertisement

It sits, vacant now, in one of Canberra's most desirable suburbs, Forrest, unloved by a prime minister while Mr Abbott consorts with police cadets.

Liberal senator Cory Bernardi wasn't impressed. He declared it seemed "presumptuous" for the department to sign up for a $156,000-a-year lease when, as it turned out, the Prime Minister didn't want the place. "Perhaps well intentioned, but presumptuous," he added.

  On 18/11/2013 at 04:23, Arrow said:

It almost needs it's own thread, the whole 'boats' concept, but really, what are his alternate options?

Everyone knows it's a **** scenario, in an ideal world, noone would need to escape their own country in fear of their life, but the problems are so much more than let's reach out and be good humanitarians. You're correct about his 'noble cause' bull, but I'm yet to hear a theory that see's a beneficial situation for both parties (Australia and Asylum seekers) and am very open minded to hearing one.

There's no quick fix that's for sure, but as P-Man said, the solution isn't providing military ships to a country that has a shocking history of human rights abuse, and it isn't taking a nothing to see here approach and trying to shield the numbers and the information from the public who have to turn to the Jakarta post to get the full story.

I've been impressed, I was half expecting that Abbott would have done something since September that made me think, you know that's no so bad, or that's a good idea. Alas no, and this horrible 3 and a bit years will likely go as I expected. At least it makes the news more interesting!

  On 18/11/2013 at 09:28, RobbieF said:

Another example of the [censored] that comes out of the Age, they make the insinuation in the headline that it's Abbott that is wasting the money when it was done before he was elected.

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/pms-unused-mansion-costs-taxpayers-3000-a-week-20131118-2xqtv.html

"Stop the waste," Tony Abbott cried endlessly during the federal election, and then made a great show of moving into a little room in Canberra's Australian Police College for $110 a night rather than spend fat money renting a Canberra mansion while The Lodge underwent renovations.

Uh, oh.

Turns out a mansion had already been rented on the taxpayers' docket, and will continue to be rented for a year. For $156,000.

Advertisement

It sits, vacant now, in one of Canberra's most desirable suburbs, Forrest, unloved by a prime minister while Mr Abbott consorts with police cadets.

Liberal senator Cory Bernardi wasn't impressed. He declared it seemed "presumptuous" for the department to sign up for a $156,000-a-year lease when, as it turned out, the Prime Minister didn't want the place. "Perhaps well intentioned, but presumptuous," he added.

Yes Robbie you are right the Age has put spin on something the public service has done. Just be as vigilant when the Oz does the something similar the other way. My advice would be to take anything written by Hedley Thomas with caution. Defending Glenn Milne is a futile exercise. Isn't he the one who took a swing at Steven Mayne at a Walkley night? Great entertainment but really.

But yes I too have noticed the Fairfax media's tendency to put a negative spin on the new government. It seems to be part of a struggling print media trying to lock in their partisan followers. the companies are intent on differentiating their product to keep their customers happy. The facts need to be thoroughly examined from several sources before we can make a call.

Fairfax pubs also absolutely hammered Gillard. I can provide a list of headlines if needed.

The infatuation with perceived bias is getting really dull. It's just detracting from discussion of the issues themselves.

  On 17/11/2013 at 08:54, P-man said:

Oh yeah, he's a real softy.

So generous is he that he donates boats to a country with a shocking history of human rights abuses so that they can prevent the efforts of innocent Tamils attempting to flee persecution, all under the pretence of "stopping this evil trade of people smuggling". So not only is he choosing not to condemn Sri Lanka's behaviour, he's ASSISTING it. The word "disgraceful" eventually loses all meaning when you use it so often, but with Abbott it's so often appropriate.

Tone couldn't give two shits about lives lost at sea. It's insulting for him to suggest some noble cause behind his "stop the boats" tirades. A decent human being? You've deadset got to be having a laugh. For a renowned Christian, his attitude could not be more Un-Christian like if he tried. He's not even giving genuine refugees a chance to state their case.

Make absolutely no mistake, your idol is a dangerous man Benny. He has his ideologies and if you stand in his way, you are shown no mercy.

You're a deluded soul in a sea of left wing politics.

It happens to be Labor's policy to also stop the boats. It's also happens to be right, although they created this mess. Were you complaining after Howard had stopped the boats ? Probably. Happy at the deaths at sea ?

Abbott isn't my hero, I don't have heroes. I'm a conservative who agrees with border protection and stopping people risking their lives at sea. I also don't believe that many who attempt to come here by boat have no other resort.

Abbott is a dangerous man you say. You people really are as thick as a brick.

Yes, I'm thick, everyone who doesn't agree with you is thick. Most people grow out of that mindset when they hit puberty. It skipped you for some reason. But I understand all you can do is insult the intelligence of others so I don't want to rob you of that vital asset mate. Maybe you'll eventually grow tired of the sandpit.

I wasn't a big fan of the PNG solution either (although it's worth noting that the bulk of the drop in arrivals happened under that policy before the new government was sworn in), but It's an oversimplication to say that Labor's policy is also to stop the boats - more consideration being given to how peoples are processed, and certainly more transparency compared to the indefensible circus we're getting now. Who the hell knows what's happening on our borders? You don't, because no-one does.

In many senses, importantly a diplomatic sense, he is very much a dangerous man. It didn't take long for him to completely [censored] off Indonesia with his flippant, rookie response to the spying allegations. Now front page news even on Murdoch pubs.

Indonesian Ambassador withdrawn from Canberra and all official positions reviewed.

Pretty impressive. I didn't think he'd manage to do it this quickly.

Yippee.

  On 18/11/2013 at 12:20, P-man said:

Yes, I'm thick, everyone who doesn't agree with you is thick. Most people grow out of that mindset when they hit puberty. It skipped you for some reason. But I understand all you can do is insult the intelligence of others so I don't want to rob you of that vital asset mate. Maybe you'll eventually grow tired of the sandpit.

I wasn't a big fan of the PNG solution either (although it's worth noting that the bulk of the drop in arrivals happened under that policy before the new government was sworn in), but It's an oversimplication to say that Labor's policy is also to stop the boats - more consideration being given to how peoples are processed, and certainly more transparency compared to the indefensible circus we're getting now. Who the hell knows what's happening on our borders? You don't, because no-one does.

In many senses, importantly a diplomatic sense, he is very much a dangerous man. It didn't take long for him to completely [censored] Indonesia with his flippant, rookie response to the spying allegations. Now front page news even on Murdoch pubs.

Indonesian Ambassador withdrawn from Canberra and all official positions reviewed.

Pretty impressive. I didn't think he'd manage to do it this quickly.

Yippee.

You're thick because your views are so over the top. I don't care whether you agree with me, but to consider Abbott dangerous is nonsensical.

Any slight mistake Abbott may have made you overplay as some diabolical catastrophe. It's this maniacal thinking that makes you hard to take seriously.

You're getting in a tizz over reports that won't even be a headline in days let alone weeks.

Where was this outrage when Labor was actually rooting the country ? I don't recall a single post of yours. You're clutching at straws and making yourself look silly in the process.

I'm happy to revisit these Abbott "disasters" in a few months time and see the actual fallout. Your rhetoric will only hamper views of your opinion when he's really made a mistake that's noteworthy. Talk about "crying wolf".

A lot of lines to say very little at all.

Which of my views are "over the top"? I think damaging our relationship with Indonesia is dangerous. I think supplying warships to Sri Lanka to propel a domestic policy, is dangerous. From both an economic and environmental standpoint, I think stalling on action on climate change and ignoring heavily weighted scientific opinion whilst spreading blatant misinformation about the issue is dangerous. I think lying about the state of the economy and budget is dangerous. I think hiding information from the public that it has a right to know is dangerous. So yes, on several fronts, I think he is dangerous.

In hypocritical fashion, you say I'm over the top, despite the typically grand terms you use to describe Labor's time in government. I have no desire to be an apologist for Labor, but "rooting the country"? That's strong language considering we were one of the few Western nations to survive the GFC in tact with a AAA rating. The economy Abbott took over is actually a very healthy one, despite his rhetoric about "emergencies" during the election, bleating on about how you can't solve debt with more debt, then asking to increase the debt cap to half a trillion dollars for the next year, without even providing the budget figures.

What do you believe in other than "I'm conservative", and "refer to point 1"? It's easy to disingenuously profess that you want to stop lives being lost at sea. What about the lives trying to escape persecution? Abbott plainly does not care about those. Do you?

I'm not saying this a "diabolical catastrophe", but fracturing an international relationship which Abbott himself has described as our single most important one, is a serious matter, and only a blind follower would think otherwise. All you seem to want to do is try and discredit ME as some sort of alarmist. In his short time as PM, he has created a standoff over the asylum seeker issue, and now has arrogantly dismissed a leaked report, resulting in Indonesia removing its Ambassador with a statement that trust has broken down. And you think that should avoid criticism.

I only recently started visiting this board. If there were political threads back then I wouldn't know. If you and Robbie want to sit around with your cone hats on, agreeing on what a great job Abbott is doing, I apologise for the inconvenience.

Here's a link for those who give a [censored] about what's going on, taken from News Corp to avoid inevitable accusations of bias: http://www.news.com.au/national/jakarta-recalls-ambassador-as-diplomatic-tensions-rise-over-spying-claims/story-fncynjr2-1226762823093

  On 18/11/2013 at 14:24, P-man said:

Here's a link for those who give a [censored] about what's going on, taken from News Corp to avoid inevitable accusations of bias: http://www.news.com.au/national/jakarta-recalls-ambassador-as-diplomatic-tensions-rise-over-spying-claims/story-fncynjr2-1226762823093

We can't even tap a phone without getting sprung?

This is highly damaging and embarrassing .

There will be consequences for this amateur diplomatic effort.

Looks pretty stupid to demand a massive Archipelago like Indo stop every fishing boat from drifting down the Arafura whilst getting caught bugging the President of same country.

What a Shambles.

What a Pea-head is the Monk.

  On 18/11/2013 at 14:24, P-man said:

Here's a link for those who give a [censored] about what's going on, taken from News Corp to avoid inevitable accusations of bias: http://www.news.com.au/national/jakarta-recalls-ambassador-as-diplomatic-tensions-rise-over-spying-claims/story-fncynjr2-1226762823093

thanks for the link

Here is the alleged offense

"The slides, produced by the directorate for the US National Security Agency (NSA) show the operation lasted five days in August 2009 and came a month after terrorist bombings of two hotels in Jakarta which killed seven people, including three Australians."

I must be thick coz I didn't realise Abbott or the Liberal party were in power in 2009

  On 18/11/2013 at 23:07, daisycutter said:

thanks for the link

Here is the alleged offense

"The slides, produced by the directorate for the US National Security Agency (NSA) show the operation lasted five days in August 2009 and came a month after terrorist bombings of two hotels in Jakarta which killed seven people, including three Australians."

I must be thick coz I didn't realise Abbott or the Liberal party were in power in 2009

Wow, someone who wants to discuss the actual issue itself. Benjamin, take notice,

Yes it occurred in 09, and Abbott can't be held accountable for the act itself. Indeed the act itself isn't what I'm critical of, it is the nature of Abbott's public response to the leak that I think has been handled poorly and has been cited by Indonesia as unsatisfactory.

Is it a storm in a teacup that they'll just need to get over? Let's hope so.