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Neeld is not the problem

Dr. Mubutu
Dr. Mubutu
in Melbourne Demons

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  On 02/06/2013 at 09:38, jnrmac said:

Neeld has killed this clubs spirit.

Thanks for sharing jnrmac

According to the players and coaches (not Neeld's opinon) spirit is high - are they lying to us?

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:45, Unleash Hell said:

    Thanks for sharing jman

    According to the players and coaches (not Neeld's opinon) spirit is high - are they lying to us?

    Yep...human nature being what it is there is no way known spirits can be high when you are getting flogged every week. The are doing well to keep a positive face and when things turn it will hold them in good stead, but they are holding the party line at the moment.

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:34, rjay said:

    I think the fundamental flaw is a mix of a few things, with the emphasis on defence and zones to many of our guys don't put themselves in attacking positions. Experienced opposition know this and don't need to provide the cover they do against better teams. They are then free to set up easily from the back half.

    If it's true that players are being restricted to GPS positioning as posted above it's no wonder we are not getting the possession numbers that our opponents are and that our guys seem to be second guessing.

    I think this could be part of Trengove's problem, he is not moving naturally. I don't think he will ever be accused of being quick but looking at Selwood and Bartell the other night they are not exactly quick over the ground either. It's how they position themselves, I don't think Scott would be telling them where they should be standing and/or not to move out of a particular area.

    This does seem to be a problem of Neeld's making and a new coach may bring some creative sprit back into the team and free up the players a bit. I'm not a big fan of the caretaker approach and would prefer us to appoint a new coach, that would mean either getting a commitment from Roos or more likely poaching Williams or Eade from their current jobs...now. We can't be nice about this, if it upsets Ed or the Tiges so be it.

    Good points rjay

    One thing is for sure you don't have to be quick to make an impact on the game - as you point out Selwood, Bartel and Mitchell/Sewell are perfect examples

    My only counter to what you've said is that we are in-experienced and will be easily exploited - it's not even a good counter argument our blokes turn it over too easily. We need leaders to stand up - weekly we struggle for anyone to win their position.....I beieve neeld will be sacked but I don't expect anything to change

    Dark days at Deeland - it makes me wonder if some confidence in the direction would help

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:40, goodoil said:

    Lucas Cook and Jai Sheahan are examples of delistings whilst Tarrant and Black have finally broken through in their 4th seasons at North. Moloney and some of the other established leaders he besmirched from the get-go. His treatment of Watts and Davey has been disgraceful. He is the first coach in AFL history to prioritise compliance over talent, an idiotic belief system for elite sport.

    Cook was a flop from the moment he got to the club. After two years he couldn't even get a game in the Casey firsts. Sheahan (and Williams) was a victim of the shortened rookie list. With rookie spots dropping from 7 to 4, it was a choice of upgrade him or cut him, and you and I both know he didn't warrant upgrading to the main list given our depth of talls.

    Moloney had a massive dummy spit and tried to take his ball and go home. He was given chances to pull his head in and act like part of a team and he wouldn't take them. As for Watts and Davey, I keep hearing htat he has treated them badly, but not from anyone connected with them. I'm really not sure how he has done so. Is it by mentioning that they needed to work harder in his media conferences? That's the truth. Davey has played some of his best football in years recently. I don't see disgraceful treatment there.

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:48, rjay said:

    Yep...human nature being what it is there is no way known spirits can be high when you are getting flogged every week. The are doing well to keep a positive face and when things turn it will hold them in good stead, but they are holding the party line at the moment.

    Yep I am caught in two minds about this

    You'd think and hope it would show on field but unless you're in the know how do you tell?? I don't think effort can be questioned personally

    Just don't like cheap pot shots - they offer nothing

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    As pointed out on radio today if neeld does go it will be the 2nd coach gone in the space of 3 years so the players and there attitude have to be looked at as well.

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:43, Unleash Hell said:

    I don't agree with everything you've said goodoil but you have made some good and damming points. I disagree with your thoughts on Evans as he is young and does make mistakes but given time could be a handy player (but everyone will have different opinions on players)

    As for the coaches performance off-field I think your points are pretty spot on and are pretty damming - There are arguments against but at the end of the day what's the point as Neeld has made his own bed - he has to lie in it...

    On field results have been super poor no one can argues that - the only question in my mind about Neeld's tenure is do we allow him to coach out the rest of the year? I don't see any point bringing in a caretaker now - all the supporters/players leaving scare mongering are rubbish IMO 2013 is a write off they're going to drop off anyway.... It's about how are we going to get a better performance in the 2nd half of the year - with or without Neeld, who will get the most out of the players???

    By being professional and standing by employees - letting Neeld coach out the year is this too impractical or is it as simple as sack him now? Have we as a club not learned that we can't sell out former employees??

    Re: Evans I just don't think he is clean enough in close or by foot be a good long-term player, but he has some athletic attributes and provides the odd moment. I just think he is mediocre and wouldn't get a game elsewhere.

    There are a couple of reasons for the dismissal of Neeld and the installation of a caretaker,

    i) You can insert someone who you know 100% has the club's interest at heart. I'm not saying Neeld necessarily doesn't but a coach fighting for coaching future can do things more for his short-term benefit.

    ii) The club needs to get some enthusiasm back into it. One of the crucial mistakes made by Neeld, was coming in and beaing hardnosed and playing very structure based football. It sacrificed the enthusiasm a new coach can bring and the spike in form a new coach usually generates.

    iii) Some enthusiasm re-emerging in a totally dispirited supporter base

    iv) It may assist in the retention of required players who would leave if Neeld stays. If there are any.

    v) It allows a half season to reconstruct and recruit for the footy dept without a dead-man-walking coach in office.

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    Did anyone watch MM's presser yesterday about how he changed his gameplan from what he told the players when he first arrived.

    An experienced premiership coach knows when and how to bend. "It's about how to best use your list and to make footy enjoyable for them to play"

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:52, dees189227 said:

    As pointed out on radio today if neeld does go it will be the 2nd coach gone in the space of 3 years so the players and there attitude have to be looked at as well.

    Bloody oath - This is a real concern from the outside

    Put in an easy going coach - players are poor ( 4 year record under bailey wasn't great - the club's image and performance was equally mediocre)

    hard nosed coach and the players still cry - The club needs to back a direction and stick to it no matter the cost or we will be mediocre forever - can't keep sacking coaches

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:55, angrydee said:

    Did anyone watch MM's presser yesterday about how he changed his gameplan from what he told the players when he first arrived.

    An experienced premiership coach knows when and how to bend. "It's about how to best use your list and to make footy enjoyable for them to play"

    Mick M said the same thing....

    Neeld had to be flexible but was it all too late?

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:52, Unleash Hell said:

    Yep I am caught in two minds about this

    You'd think and hope it would show on field but unless you're in the know how do you tell?? I don't think effort can be questioned personally

    Just don't like cheap pot shots - they offer nothing

    Correct.

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:51, RalphiusMaximus said:

    Cook was a flop from the moment he got to the club. After two years he couldn't even get a game in the Casey firsts. Sheahan (and Williams) was a victim of the shortened rookie list. With rookie spots dropping from 7 to 4, it was a choice of upgrade him or cut him, and you and I both know he didn't warrant upgrading to the main list given our depth of talls.

    Moloney had a massive dummy spit and tried to take his ball and go home. He was given chances to pull his head in and act like part of a team and he wouldn't take them. As for Watts and Davey, I keep hearing htat he has treated them badly, but not from anyone connected with them. I'm really not sure how he has done so. Is it by mentioning that they needed to work harder in his media conferences? That's the truth. Davey has played some of his best football in years recently. I don't see disgraceful treatment there.

    Watts and Davey have been made scapegoats and humiliated via substitution and usage. The use of Watts positionally and the non-seletion of Davey, our classiest player, have been appalling. Cook and Sheahan who are playing VFL at the moment werent even given time to grow into their bodies and develop, they were thrown away by the compliance-mad coach. The club had a right to expect a 196cm first round pick be given more time. Sheahan could have been kept but Magner and Couch were retained. A good coach would have dealt with the Moloney situation a hell of a lot better and found a better result for the club.

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:55, goodoil said:

    Re: Evans I just don't think he is clean enough in close or by foot be a good long-term player, but he has some athletic attributes and provides the odd moment. I just think he is mediocre and wouldn't get a game elsewhere.

    There are a couple of reasons for the dismissal of Neeld and the installation of a caretaker,

    i) You can insert someone who you know 100% has the club's interest at heart. I'm not saying Neeld necessarily doesn't but a coach fighting for coaching future can do things more for his short-term benefit.

    ii) The club needs to get some enthusiasm back into it. One of the crucial mistakes made by Neeld, was coming in and beaing hardnosed and playing very structure based football. It sacrificed the enthusiasm a new coach can bring and the spike in form a new coach usually generated.

    iii) Some enthusiasm re-emerging in a totally dispirited supporter base

    iv) It may assist in the retention of required players who would leave if Neeld stays. If there are any.

    v) It allows a half season to reconstruct and recruit for the footy dept without a dead-man-walking coach in office.

    You can do all those things with a dead coach walking

    Freo are a perfect example - my personaly worry is our poor handing of employees coming back to bite us in the ass...

    And letting the playing group dictate the direction of the club is a fundamental flaw which I believe is why we are such a poor club. I am not saying keeping neeld is the right move but we continually fold to pressure and keep paying for it.

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    Name me a top 4 or even 8 side that has let players dictate the direction of the club

    Thye don't - they move those players on

    That's my personal worry

    Don't worry about Neeld - worry about us being weak and continuing to be a weak club - it starts at the very top and I reckon sacking Neeld now will continue that culture

    60 years of weakness still going strong

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:52, dees189227 said:

    As pointed out on radio today if neeld does go it will be the 2nd coach gone in the space of 3 years so the players and there attitude have to be looked at as well.

    Funny, when I pointed this out people told me it wasn't important and shouldn't be a factor. I guess if it's said on THE RADIO that makes it more valid.

    I say again, Sacking yet another coach mid-term is THE WORST POSSIBLE move this club could make. Pull the rug out from under the players, show that contracts mean nothing to this club, put doubt in the mind of any prospective coach to look at applying for the job, and for what? The team won't win more games for a new coach. The problems with the midfield won't go away. All it will do is set us back another couple of years as we begin the Rebuild of the Rebuild of the Rebuild. The percentage play is to let Neeld see out his contract and see if he can't do what he was hired to do.

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      On 02/06/2013 at 10:03, RalphiusMaximus said:

    Funny, when I pointed this out people told me it wasn't important and shouldn't be a factor. I guess if it's said on THE RADIO that makes it more valid.

    I say again, Sacking yet another coach mid-term is THE WORST POSSIBLE move this club could make. Pull the rug out from under the players, show that contracts mean nothing to this club, put doubt in the mind of any prospective coach to look at applying for the job, and for what? The team won't win more games for a new coach. The problems with the midfield won't go away. All it will do is set us back another couple of years as we begin the Rebuild of the Rebuild of the Rebuild. The percentage play is to let Neeld see out his contract and see if he can't do what he was hired to do.

    Yep I agree RM

    We will continue our we are a weak club cycle

    3 x rebuild - I know a few blokes and it will confirm what the AFL thinks of us

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      On 02/06/2013 at 10:03, RalphiusMaximus said:

    Funny, when I pointed this out people told me it wasn't important and shouldn't be a factor. I guess if it's said on THE RADIO that makes it more valid.

    I say again, Sacking yet another coach mid-term is THE WORST POSSIBLE move this club could make. Pull the rug out from under the players, show that contracts mean nothing to this club, put doubt in the mind of any prospective coach to look at applying for the job, and for what? The team won't win more games for a new coach. The problems with the midfield won't go away. All it will do is set us back another couple of years as we begin the Rebuild of the Rebuild of the Rebuild. The percentage play is to let Neeld see out his contract and see if he can't do what he was hired to do.

    Logically what you say makes sense but football is such and emotional game. I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm not so keen with the caretaker idea.

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      On 02/06/2013 at 10:07, rjay said:

    Logically what you say makes sense but football is such and emotional game. I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm not so keen with the caretaker idea.

    It's an emotional game for the supporters and the players. The board are there to make the right call, to take the emotion out of the equation, run the numbers and make the best possible call for the club's future. I've looked at this every way I can think of, and I can't find more positives in sacking Neeld than I can in keeping him. If the board do, then they are not doing their jobs but instead are caving in to perceived pressure coming largely from the media who sense an easy kill to boost their stocks. A logical and dispassionate assessment of the situation does not support moving him on.

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      On 02/06/2013 at 10:07, rjay said:

    Logically what you say makes sense but football is such and emotional game. I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm not so keen with the caretaker idea.

    Thats why separation of ownership and management is important and even more important is having good people in charge

    Now that is a debate I am not getting in to :)

    I do have faith in Peter Jackson - and if he says neeld has to go tomorrow I'll support it - after all he sacked Sheedy

    But you need logic and good leaders - i think the MFC is lacking a lot of both

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      On 02/06/2013 at 10:12, RalphiusMaximus said:

    It's an emotional game for the supporters and the players. The board are there to make the right call, to take the emotion out of the equation, run the numbers and make the best possible call for the club's future. I've looked at this every way I can think of, and I can't find more positives in sacking Neeld than I can in keeping him. If the board do, then they are not doing their jobs but instead are caving in to perceived pressure coming largely from the media who sense an easy kill to boost their stocks. A logical and dispassionate assessment of the situation does not support moving him on.

    I'll let you take over RM - you make more sense then I and I need to eat :)

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:44, tatu said:

    Not sure what people expected from today's match..... We got beaten by the number 1 contenders...... Is anybody surprised by this?

    Just because the media want us to sack Neeld.... Doesn't mean we should.... Geez....

    Exactly, and coming off a road trip to Freo, today was always going to get ugly.

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      On 02/06/2013 at 10:12, RalphiusMaximus said:

    It's an emotional game for the supporters and the players. The board are there to make the right call, to take the emotion out of the equation, run the numbers and make the best possible call for the club's future. I've looked at this every way I can think of, and I can't find more positives in sacking Neeld than I can in keeping him. If the board do, then they are not doing their jobs but instead are caving in to perceived pressure coming largely from the media who sense an easy kill to boost their stocks. A logical and dispassionate assessment of the situation does not support moving him on.

    If they do hopefully they are doing it with all the information available to them and find there are more positives than negatives and are not just caving in to public opinion.

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      On 02/06/2013 at 09:40, goodoil said:

    Lucas Cook and Jai Sheahan are examples of delistings whilst Tarrant and Black have finally broken through in their 4th seasons at North. Moloney and some of the other established leaders he besmirched from the get-go. His treatment of Watts and Davey has been disgraceful. He is the first coach in AFL history to prioritise compliance over talent, an idiotic belief system for elite sport.

    You are kidding if you think those two have been treated disgracefully

    Davey has had two shocking years since he won the B&F and has played a couple of OK games this year.

    Watts's effort is diabolical. He had a good second half last year playing as a floating defender (under Neeld) but his effort and attack on the ball is non-existent.

    Not a Neeld fan and want him gone but these two players don't deserve games ATM.

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      On 02/06/2013 at 10:12, RalphiusMaximus said:

    It's an emotional game for the supporters and the players. The board are there to make the right call, to take the emotion out of the equation, run the numbers and make the best possible call for the club's future. I've looked at this every way I can think of, and I can't find more positives in sacking Neeld than I can in keeping him. If the board do, then they are not doing their jobs but instead are caving in to perceived pressure coming largely from the media who sense an easy kill to boost their stocks. A logical and dispassionate assessment of the situation does not support moving him on.

    What you say makes a lot of sense. I'm not 100% in the sack Neeld camp, in fact if the club said they were backing him come hell or high water while I'd be shocked part of me would also be impressed and pleased.

    I don't see there being any massive positives in giving him the flick now, but ultimately I can't see a lot of negatives a part from the financial side (which you could argue could be offset by the fickle fans wanting Neeld gone turning up again). The dangling issue is what his relationship with the players is actually like. People say that he put Dacey offside and yet he has dinner with his family. There has in fact been comments that should he be sacked players will look to go.

    Question is do we no longer look at our club as a club with a 150 year history and look at the team as starting right from scratch like GWS and GC? Yes he's taken us to that point, but did he outline that as his intention from the beginning and are the players on board with it?

    I won't bat an eye if/when he is sacked, but I must wonder what his long term plan was.

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    I look at performances like today and realise our list is no good. The reason our list is no good is because of Neeld. He raped this list. I feel sorry for our next coach. Bailey at least left the next coach something to work with. Apart from a decent forward line there is little upside to this list. VFL battlers.

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