We lost the Best people in 1965 who both went to other clubs.

We have been slowly dying ever since.

Most of them were not at the Club four-five years ago, so what you are saying is the players arrive and as part of their induction they are handed mental baggage......staggering.......the problem we have is inexperience and confidence

I actually think WYL makes a good point. Culture is passed on. Our kids have also had to deal with a number of traumas in relatively recent times, which has probably contributed to their mental fragility. You can't encourage an attitude that It's never their fault, but I just wonder if we have looked after the mental health of these kids properly. Did Neeld go too hard too early?

I can see Schwab's plan and it may work

We have an inexperienced Football Manager

Inexperienced Coach

Inexperienced Captains

Inexperienced players

But they could all grow together with a set plan, with Neil Craig and a couple of imported senior players keeping everybody on the correct path, and have sustained success

At the moment the confidence is shot, but like Schwab I am confident it will work, it is whether it survives long enough to work

WYL you are worse than Old Dee sometimes, stop looking over your shoulder, it has gone, listen to everybody, we need new fresh air

Yes we need fresh air. But we need some experience in that air.

Too many kids and first year coaches.

Haha! I am looking over my shoulder...No you are delusional if you think this present system will work.

your point??

You will never admit the club tanked will you rpfc....

We have spent more time on here defining that word than the AFL evidently did after McLachlan said he "didn't know what the definition of tanking is."

Define it and I will tell you whether we did.

That was a rhetorical question BTW.

The AFL don't know what tanking is but they said we didn't do whatever it is that they can't define so that's that.

Yes we need fresh air. But we need some experience in that air.

Too many kids and first year coaches.

Haha! I am looking over my shoulder...No you are delusional if you think this present system will work.

Delusional, so it is you Rangey, you had prepared WYL just for this moment, why do you call posters who don't agree with you delusional, I said I think you look over your shoulder at the past too much, how can we move forward if we have supporters who keep wanting to drag us back.......I said the present system will work, (try reading what I wrote), if it manages to survive to work.......which means that the Club/Media/Supporters like you might not be patient enough to see whether it works...an opnion.....as for Culture, don't get me started on that bloody overused word

Yes we need fresh air. But we need some experience in that air.

Too many kids and first year coaches.

Haha! I am looking over my shoulder...No you are delusional if you think this present system will work.

Yep, but it has to hopefully be the right experience. This goes to your baggage point. We have to make sure that we identify the right ones to keep. Not that we have many experienced players left. My problem with the stategy that we seem to have embarked upon now and into the future is that it has and will rid us of players we needed to move on, but also some we would have been better off keeping. We in my view seem to have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

Delusional, so it is you Rangey, you had prepared WYL just for this moment, why do you call posters who don't agree with you delusional, I said I think you look over your shoulder at the past too much, how can we move forward if we have supporters who keep wanting to drag us back.......I said the present system will work, (try reading what I wrote), if it manages to survive to work.......which means that the Club/Media/Supporters like you might not be patient enough to see whether it works...an opnion.....as for Culture, don't get me started on that bloody overused word

I'd actually be interested to read your views on culture mate? I have a sociology degree so perhaps I'm biased, but I'd love to read your view.

Delusional, so it is you Rangey, you had prepared WYL just for this moment, why do you call posters who don't agree with you delusional, I said I think you look over your shoulder at the past too much, how can we move forward if we have supporters who keep wanting to drag us back.......I said the present system will work, (try reading what I wrote), if it manages to survive to work.......which means that the Club/Media/Supporters like you might not be patient enough to see whether it works...an opnion.....as for Culture, don't get me started on that bloody overused word

Where am i looking over my shoulder?

That was Schwab's biggest problem. We needed an experienced September coach in 2007 & instead hired a rookie. Then that failed & we hired another rookie, that is on very shaky ground as we speak.

Neeld's after match presser on saturday was painful to watch. I fear for his health.

So i do not think it is i who lives in the past at all. It is the MFC who cannot take that first step .....forward, not i.

I'd actually be interested to read your views on culture mate? I have a sociology degree so perhaps I'm biased, but I'd love to read your view.

Here you go. Have a read of this thread on Swans culture: http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/31736-swans-culture/

Yep, but it has to hopefully be the right experience. This goes to your baggage point. We have to make sure that we identify the right ones to keep. Not that we have many experienced players left. My problem with the stategy that we seem to have embarked upon now and into the future is that it has and will rid us of players we needed to move on, but also some we would have been better off keeping. We in my view seem to have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

Gaining Quality Experience is paramount i agree.

Neeld took a punt in the draft out of desperation to gain older players.

So far it has not worked, and more players will leave quicker than hoped.

This is the bad side of FA.

And why the MFC need the Best CEO & The most shrewd President available, to restructure this bad leak

your point??

It maybe just coincidence (and if so, what a beauty) but I'd suggest H_T was pointing out that Pete Best was drummer for the early part of The Beatles Australian tour, subsequently replaced by Ringo after the latter got over his 4-6 week injury (broken hand, maybe?)

It maybe just coincidence (and if so, what a beauty) but I'd suggest H_T was pointing out that Pete Best was drummer for the early part of The Beatles Australian tour, subsequently replaced by Ringo after the latter got over his 4-6 week injury (broken hand, maybe?)

Sorry Jimmy Nicol was the replacement drummer, Pete Best was kicked out and replaced by Ringo

The way I see it, the playing group hated Schwab because he wanted Bailey to hold them more accountable on-field. He actively tried to change the playing culture at the club.

This was driven by the players. It was always going to happen.

Do people think Bailey was sacked as a scapegoat? He was sacked because his team played unaccountable, lazy football when it fell behind. The very things the administration wanted to eradicate post-Daniher was being enhanced under Bailey. That is where Schwab's "meddling in the football department" comes into play.

His hiring of Neeld is particularly indicative of his influence to change the club's culture. Neeld has come in and it's clear the players just don't buy in to his hardline approach...although I'm starting to doubt his teaching credentials.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a very entitled, self-indulged playing group.

I agree with you in regards to the playing group for the most part. They were leading Bailey around by the nose a the end.

I don't see this as an 'either/or' situation. I think the players did have a right to feel somewhat aggrieved by CS's 'premiership model'. What was written (or has been said to have been written) in the Andrews report is that player development is not what it should have been, the coach was being undermined and the players felt they were in an organization that was more about image than anything else. Schwab had all the right in the world to question whether Bailey was the man to lead the club forward and he SHOULD have raised these concerns at the appropriate time (contract renewal time). The 'player development' and 'image' bits of the above sentence were the damning ones. CS, as he advertised in his Whiteboard/Whack you weasel Wednesday sessions, kept telling us how we were going to rebuild via youth and on the back of our heritage.

Rebuilding via the draft and promoting youth is great but even the 'young' teams had some veterans in there. Essendon of 1993 had Bomber Thompson, Paul Salmon, Tim Watson, Garry O'Donnell, Dean Wallis and Mark Harvey on the roster. Nick Riewoldt was made captain of St. Kilda at 21 but there were blokes like Aaron Hamill and Robert Harvey around still to support him while he learnt on the job. What the footballing component of the club couldn't take was that these orders seemed to be coming from a bloke tasked with running the admin. side of the club. When they talk about meddling, the 'red and blueprint' was the CEO killer in this place.

The second part of that rebuilding plan is resulting in us looking like a pack of Victorian era (Queen Victoria, not the state) dandies posing as a football club. Sure we have a great tradition but as Leigh Matthews said once, 'Tradition is one thing but it doesn't count for much if the opposition is working harder than you and with greater enterprise.' Things like the blazers, the bugler, our overly busy logo which tries to jam in as much historical [censored] as possible, the 'blood red and true navy' jumper, giving young players the numbers of past greats etc. are merely cosmetic changes. They will not make nor break the footy club. It seemed that CS felt that pointless minutiae such as this was the path back. If anything, it has divided the fans. Bitter but Optimistic (I value your posts mate but I differ with you here) says if we want to have a bugler, we shouldn't care what the other clubs think. But a LOT of us (Melbourne supporters) don't want the bugler! I wouldn't care if he sat with the cheer squad and blew his trumpet (or bugle) when we won, which I believe he did, but for the club to come out and say that 'YES! This is who we are!' is silly. When they give Jack Watts number 4, Jack Grimes 31 and Jack Trengove 9, did they think these kids are incapable of making their own history? Did they think they need some magical number to get them to lift? What dif a new logo and different colors on the jumper do for the players on the field? I will admit, I thought the previous logo was dull and I was amped to see the club promise to 'bring back the Demon', only to see something concocted in CS's wet dream but back to my point. The jumper and the logo might have generated some small amount of revenue but would that be used to help the onfield component? No.

I agree though with you on the players. Essendon went through adversity in the offseason. Port did as well. Do you see their players sulking 6 months on? No. Our's haven't recovered in 2 years. Weak as water.

Here you go. Have a read of this thread on Swans culture: http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/31736-swans-culture/

Thanks for that HT. I disagree with Satyriconhome of course, but you just saved us a useless period of back and forth without one convincing the other lol. I guess that is why you get paid the big bucks.

I'd actually be interested to read your views on culture mate? I have a sociology degree so perhaps I'm biased, but I'd love to read your view.

It is a word that has been adopted to suit certain sets of circumstances, has become overused and overvalued particularly in the work environment......nowadays we seem to need words to hang a lot of things on.......like role model...........the Sydney Swans are always put up as the prime example......(notice it is already been put here)..............for me the Swans were a team, that didn't contain too many gifted footy players, but grafters who each knew that if they put in 100% then the team would be successful, they encouraged this mindset amongst each other and the coach did the same thing and ultimately it proved successful so we had to give it a name we named that Culture...early on it was called doing your bit...or the norm....or pulling your weight......it has been handed down to successive Swans teams because it is successful....it took the next team a while to get it right but they did....so this "Culture" will be always be put up as the shining example.........it is not culture, it is doing your best 100% of the time.....should be the normal but these days it is the exception, that's why we give it a name

It maybe just coincidence (and if so, what a beauty) but I'd suggest H_T was pointing out that Pete Best was drummer for the early part of The Beatles Australian tour, subsequently replaced by Ringo after the latter got over his 4-6 week injury (broken hand, maybe?)

Yes! My uncle was there. Festival Hall.

Said he heard nothing apart from screaming hysterical girls for the entire 40 minute show. (Yes only 40 minute shows back then!)

But still ranks it right up there in lifes big moments.

Thanks for that HT. I disagree with Satyriconhome of course, but you just saved us a useless period of back and forth without one convincing the other lol. I guess that is why you get paid the big bucks.

You are entitled to disagree, I am rather disappointed that somebody with a sociology degree would regard open debate with differing viewpoints as a useless period of back and forth, but then again perhaps that confirms my belief on modern society, why do you need to convince me you are right, using my sixty years of amateur psychology...you don't need my acceptance do you?

it is not culture, it is doing your best 100% of the time.....should be the normal but these days it is the exception, that's why we give it a name

Yeah because using 10 words is better than using one?

You are entitled to disagree, I am rather disappointed that somebody with a sociology degree would regard open debate with differing viewpoints as a useless period of back and forth, but then again perhaps that confirms my belief on modern society, why do you need to convince me you are right, using my sixty years of amateur psychology...you don't need my acceptance do you?

I'm sorry you are disappointed. I read the thread I don't agree with you. Most of the arguments seem to be have been covered in that thread we move on. The fact I have put it down to the agree to disagree basket hardly means I am trying to convince you or need your acceptance so I'm not sure where that came from.You are entitled to your view. Why would you want to cover it all again?

for me the Swans were a team, that didn't contain too many gifted footy players, but grafters who each knew that if they put in 100% then the team would be successful, they encouraged this mindset amongst each other and the coach did the same thing and ultimately it proved successful ....or pulling your weight......it has been handed down to successive Swans teams because it is successful....it took the next team a while to get it right but they did............it is not culture, it is doing your best 100% of the time.....

Pardon me for butting in on your fascinating back and forth about culture but you say the bit i have bolded is not culture and what is funny is that i would have thought this is actually an excellent definition of culture. If you showed 100 people that paragraph and asked what it described i'm guessing most would say something along of the lines as oh you are talking about the bloods culture"

It is this very culture that is at the heart of the Swans'sustained success. It is exactly this sort of culture that Melbourne needs to build. Neeld has been entrusted with building it but my gut feel is he has focused to much on the obvious bits - elite training, competitiveness etc and not enough on the less tangible more difficult to build aspects such as playing for your team mate, pulling your weight, care for each other etc. As another posts says above perhaps he has gone too hard too early.

To be honest i wonder about Neelds emotional intelligence. Roos was very tough but has EI in spades. My sense is Neeld has to work on this and i hope he does. If he does he might stay around - if not and he can't get the players to play for him history tells us he is gonski

Alot of people here are talking about culture. Having studied this at uni I've dug op some of my old books on organisational culture incase anyone wants to know about it:

ORGANISATIONAL CULTURE

Organisational culture is defined as the system of shared beliefs and values that develop within an organisation and guides the behaviour of its members and abilitiy to achieve organisational goals.

This is can be analysised through three levels:

1) Observable culture/Artefacts - the behavioural patterns that a group displays and teaches to new members. These are easily definable and include elements such as language, buildings (The MCG as our home ground), the blazers we now wear, B&F and Foundation Heros ceromonies

2) Shared values and beliefs - the set of coherent values held by members of the organisation and that link them together. These are less obvious elements but mainly revolve around "how we do things around here" and our slogan "First and Forever"

3) Common assumptions - the collection of truths that organisational members share as a result of their joint experiences and that guide values and behaviours (deep/hidden aspects of organisational culture). Can be created from consecutive losses and why Sorrento is a great idea.

There are two minority cultures:

1) Subcultures - unique patterns of values and philosophies within a group that are not consistent with the dominate culture of the larger organisation. This could include older players views/values

2) Countercultures - the patterns of values and philosophies that outwardly reject those of the larger organisation. These include disgrunted players, staff, senior players being stripped of leadership roles ect.

For strategies to be enabled and acted culture needs to be able to faciliate it, and likewise strategies need to reflect the organisation's culture.

Personally I found there was alot of conflict when looking at the MFC. Ideas such as the blazers, whilst the romantic in me liked them, presented counterculture values. We had a young list, new coach, new staff, relatively new board, new captains, new leadership group - then heritage blazers and values.

This also goes with our motto: "First and Forever". Whilst its important to remember foundation values, I believe this can be drawn on later... when we have actually won something or gotten into finals. No time to be nostalgic when youre at the bottom when you havent earnt anything.

Also alot of people are saying culture can only be changed from the top down. This is wrong. Culture can be changed a number of ways and is always changing.

Top down is only applicable when culture is systematically wrong.

Ps, I forgot to mention the supporters. AFL clubs are different to most firms/organisations because of their supporters. Whilst most organisations have stakeholders or shareholders, AFL members operate similar in that they donate money, and have a say, but also they bare a large brunt of the developing, changing and facilitating culture.

It is a word that has been adopted to suit certain sets of circumstances, has become overused and overvalued particularly in the work environment......nowadays we seem to need words to hang a lot of things on.......like role model...........the Sydney Swans are always put up as the prime example......(notice it is already been put here)..............for me the Swans were a team, that didn't contain too many gifted footy players, but grafters who each knew that if they put in 100% then the team would be successful, they encouraged this mindset amongst each other and the coach did the same thing and ultimately it proved successful so we had to give it a name we named that Culture...early on it was called doing your bit...or the norm....or pulling your weight......it has been handed down to successive Swans teams because it is successful....it took the next team a while to get it right but they did....so this "Culture" will be always be put up as the shining example.........it is not culture, it is doing your best 100% of the time.....should be the normal but these days it is the exception, that's why we give it a name

John Kennedy followed Norm Smith's winning culture when he turned the Hawks into Commando's before winning the '61 flag. Kennedy was a great friend of Smithy's. he was also sick of losing.

When RDB & Smith left the Demons in '65 we lost a lot of our culture. The game was also turning professional, i don't think we grasped all that till the horse had long bolted.

All this over decades has not helped the Demons. Don't forget the Junction Oval antique shop. It all adds up.

There's more but the examples i have written here are certainly part of culture.

ND's Roller Coaster years sum up our flaky culture beautifully. We could get there...just. But never back it up the following year.

ND's Roller Coaster years sum up our flaky culture beautifully. We could get there...just. But never back it up the following year.

2004-05-06.

2004-05-06.

2005 losing the last 5 games after being on top in round 18 was the WORST of our culture.

Right there.