Yes, November is when Demonland expectations begin to rise and then crest in February. We all know what usually happens after that. I have few expectations. But I do hope we're a competitive footy team, along the lines of Brisbane this year: always have a good go and maybe upsetting a couple of higher-ups.

We have a very different list next year, and our midfield dynamic will be different and less experienced. So what should our expectations really be?

Some here would suggest, enough is enough, Neeld has made his bed and expect a good showing. Or else.

Me thinks that's a tad unfair on him, even though we should demand improvement. In addition, are we too demanding of the likes of Viney, Toumpas to perform and deliver at AFL level in their first year??

If we have nearly every player fit and available I would expect a bold showing and some excitement. Just how much, I don't know. There's a lot of new players and much learning and re-learning to play with new teammates to be done....

Some will see this as making some excuses, but it's the truth.

Aren't you the bloke that posted in Ology that we only needed to get games into young players and we would be contenders for the flag?? That Stakka bloke?? Sounds familiar....

you mean the post that was so celebrated it was forever stickied to the top of the board? Yeah that was me

Terlich looks the goods to take over the small defenders role left vacant by Batram. Judging off highlights (yes I know they're highlights but it's all we can go by at this stage) he looks composed, skillfull and quick and smart. Perfect combo for a small defender. At pick 66 or whatever it was- I think he can be our 2012 Howe equivalent.

Dean Kent is another I am looking at. Very quick and a booming left foot kick. Viney dishing out to a speedster like this = more forward 50 entries.

Don't know if this is the right thread for these musings but I guess both of these players will add to the perception of a bruise free side

Given that Neeld was only appointed at the end of season 2011, he is really only now able to restructure this list, and that he is doing. So it's not as though we could actually have any meaningful comparison just yet.

Mate that is EXACTLY what I have been saying. Jeez some people here just like to argue don't they? I'm not forecasting anything either way, if I was able to do that I wouldn't need to work any more because I'd be down at the TAB claening up. All I'm saying is can we please wait until we have actually done something before celebrating

Mate that is EXACTLY what I have been saying. Jeez some people here just like to argue don't they? I'm not forecasting anything either way, if I was able to do that I wouldn't need to work any more because I'd be down at the TAB claening up. All I'm saying is can we please wait until we have actually done something before celebrating

Yep. And can those wait until we have have actually done something or nothing before prematurely making the call to finish Neeld....

In 2010 Bailey's team played unaccountable one way footy. They took the game on, but were horrible defensively. When it came off at the G against ordinary interstate sides and the team rose in confidence they could look great. But it was never a game-plan that could be sustained, or win finals. In round 2 of the next year we looked fantastic, as we led Hawthorn by 4 goals to half-time. But they clamped down with some one-on-one footy and it soon became a 45 point loss and Melbourne were shown up for what they were.

Sydney were an ordinary team in 2010. They won 13 games and played finals, but they were a fair way off the top 4 in terms of quality and finished with a percentage of only 108. They were also in the midst of a shocking run at the G that was only halted in this year's GF.

Some of the results in 2010 and 2011 were fool's gold and invariably against interstate sides or Richmond. Most supporters would realise this by now. Maybe it should be called Stakka's gold.

The way the preseasons going..i can see Jones, Rodan and Viney as the centre square starters.

Very powerful combnation.

The way the preseasons going..i can see Jones, Rodan and Viney as the centre square starters.

Very powerful combnation.

It's not a bad point. I've been revisiting my own view as to how often Rodan will be the sub. I suspect it will be far less than we all envisaged.

I always thought Rodan would be used in the guts- his speed, flair and experience would be more suited to helping out in the midfield- not hidden deep forward.

If he can remain injury free I have high hopes. Like I do with all our mature recruits.

It's not a bad point. I've been revisiting my own view as to how often Rodan will be the sub. I suspect it will be far less than will all envisaged.

I think if you want to recruit a person to be the Sub: maybe you shouldn't.

2013 is actually a very hard year for a prediction. Because our list is just SO different.

I am happy Moloney has left. He retarded the engine last year for whatever reason.

Jones is now the general.

The forward line with Dawes is a completely different dynamic. Opposition teams will now have to totally restructure the defence to play on us.

If the attitude is rock solid i can see rapid improvement. But will they all gel?

2013 is a true wild card that certainly will not be over by half time Round 1 like 2012.

2013 is actually a very hard year for a prediction. Because our list is just SO different.

I am happy Moloney has left. He retarded the engine last year for whatever reason.

Jones is now the general.

The forward line with Dawes is a completely different dynamic. Opposition teams will now have to totally restructure the defence to play on us.

If the attitude is rock solid i can see rapid improvement. But will they all gel?

2013 is a true wild card that certainly will not be over by half time Round 1 like 2012.

Are you sure?

There are a lot of players who need to get to know each other and IMO it will take longer than the Nab cup.

There are a very large number of question marks on a large number of players we have bought in.

I struggle with us winning more than 7 - 8 games Max.

Still that will be a 100% improvement on 2012 and if we can be competitive in most of the other games

2013 will have been a big improvement.

Are you sure?

There are a lot of players who need to get to know each other and IMO it will take longer than the Nab cup.

There are a very large number of question marks on a large number of players we have bought in.

I struggle with us winning more than 7 - 8 games Max.

Still that will be a 100% improvement on 2012 and if we can be competitive in most of the other games

2013 will have been a big improvement.

Old, I'm not going to totally buy this sorry, and I will most likely get shot down to some degree for it. These blokes spend 5 days a week with each other, they are constantly going over game plans, training/practicing what they have learnt with each other, then going back in and reviewing and doing it all over again. Yes, it will take them time to get to know each other, but I don't recall any other team that makes 10-15 changes in the offseason using that as an excuse for losing games before the season even starts!

Are you sure?

There are a lot of players who need to get to know each other and IMO it will take longer than the Nab cup.

There are a very large number of question marks on a large number of players we have bought in.

I struggle with us winning more than 7 - 8 games Max.

Still that will be a 100% improvement on 2012 and if we can be competitive in most of the other games

2013 will have been a big improvement.

if the club is truly professional our new list will "click" as players will be given specific jobs to do.

I will not accept a season like 2012 again.

There are far more constructive ways to spend $1,000 on a membership than on that rubbish.

Essendung was the only legit win.

Our list must learn over summer and be ready to go.

Excuses are not on. Those players have been shown the door.

In addition, are we too demanding of the likes of Viney, Toumpas to perform and deliver at AFL level in their first year??

Absolutely this.

Even the blue-chip youngsters take a couple of seasons to really hit their straps.

The biggest mistake some supporters will make - especially this time of year - is expecting our stale midfield to transform into a well-oiled machine in one pre-season.

Expect improvement. Don't expect miracles.

Old, I'm not going to totally buy this sorry, and I will most likely get shot down to some degree for it. These blokes spend 5 days a week with each other, they are constantly going over game plans, training/practicing what they have learnt with each other, then going back in and reviewing and doing it all over again. Yes, it will take them time to get to know each other, but I don't recall any other team that makes 10-15 changes in the offseason using that as an excuse for losing games before the season even starts!

I understand where you are coming from billy

One difference is most teams have had a settled game plan that is working to some extent, witness most teams were competitive for most of their games in 2012.

Adding players is mostly tinkering.

The Dees are a different proposition, we where uncompetitive in 16 games

To get the best from the new personnel and game plan IMO will not happen over night.

We also need to remember that some of the inclusions are speculative.

Players like Byrnes and Roden could be spectacular failures

Neither were setting the world on fire at their respective clubs.

IMO it will take the first half of 2013 before we know the answers to numerous questions re players, game plans and coaching staff ability.

an improvement will be the miracle

Yep. And can those wait until we have have actually done something or nothing before prematurely making the call to finish Neeld....

OK but I never said anything like that

Absolutely this.

Even the blue-chip youngsters take a couple of seasons to really hit their straps.

The biggest mistake some supporters will make - especially this time of year - is expecting our stale midfield to transform into a well-oiled machine in one pre-season.

Expect improvement. Don't expect miracles.

Spot on 'NoMoreMrNiceGuy'

It does not pay to believe too much of our own BS

I understand where you are coming from billy

One difference is most teams have had a settled game plan that is working to some extent, witness most teams were competitive for most of their games in 2012.

Adding players is mostly tinkering.

The Dees are a different proposition, we where uncompetitive in 16 games

To get the best from the new personnel and game plan IMO will not happen over night.

We also need to remember that some of the inclusions are speculative.

Players like Byrnes and Roden could be spectacular failures

Neither were setting the world on fire at their respective clubs.

IMO it will take the first half of 2013 before we know the answers to numerous questions re players, game plans and coaching staff ability.

I'd still like to think that the 22 games we played this year was all about understanding the workings of our game plan heading in to 2013. If our players started this preseason with no idea of what the game plan is all about, then we're in a worse position than I would like to think.

I think it will be an epic fail is we don't win more than 8 games this year. We have the franchise teams 4 times, that, in reality, should equal 4 wins. It also should be realistic that we win more than 4 games against the "other" teams. If we don't, Neeld will be quite nervous at his own end of season review, and rightly so.

2012 was a long preseason getting prepared for 2013.

I'd still like to think that the 22 games we played this year was all about understanding the workings of our game plan heading in to 2013. If our players started this preseason with no idea of what the game plan is all about, then we're in a worse position than I would like to think.

I think it will be an epic fail is we don't win more than 8 games this year. We have the franchise teams 4 times, that, in reality, should equal 4 wins. It also should be realistic that we win more than 4 games against the "other" teams. If we don't, Neeld will be quite nervous at his own end of season review, and rightly so.

2012 was a long preseason getting prepared for 2013.

We are at year one of an almost total rebuild.

Have a long hard look at the fixture billy and see where the wins above 8 are going to come from.

Wishing us better won't get the job done.

It will be hard work in 2013 don't expect anything more and you may have a good year.

IMO it will take the first half of 2013 before we know the answers to numerous questions re players, game plans and coaching staff ability.

Certainly some 'questions' will be answered in those first 11 games of 2013, but I tend to think it will be the second half of the season when we will really get a handle on Neeld's coaching ability. He'll have a pretty good idea who his best 22 is by then, the players will have had plenty of time playing alongside one another, the gameplan should need less tinkering.

I'd really like to see us knock off a couple of bogy sides (North, St.Kilda) next year as well. We should really be setting ourselves to establish our mid-ladder credentials with victories over these types of teams.

Me thinks that's a tad unfair on him, even though we should demand improvement. In addition, are we too demanding of the likes of Viney, Toumpas to perform and deliver at AFL level in their first year??

I agree HT,

I don't expect either Toumpas or Viney to contribute consistently at a high level this season. If they do I would consider it a bonus.

I think the improvement will come because of thes factors which were missing under the "get games into kids" fiasco....

-with the inclusions of the mature players that we have added to fill "holes" through strategic recruiting for the here and now.

-the increased options that the coaches will have at selection to make repairs, cover poor form, lack of discipline and injury.

-and the pressure that depth will place on players to consistently perform at a high level.

Add to this an improved fitness base, another year of strength and conditioning into our kids and a greater digestion of the "game plan" it should bear some results.

We also have a nice draw.

I understand what it is to be a Melbourne supporter, but this coaching and recruiting group has gone a long way to eliminate any excuses for under-performance. There is no safety net anymore and Neeld will know that this is not purely a development but a year where all expect results.

It's not bruise free football anymore, it's not bruise free coaching or training either. Its balls on the line stuff for everyone.

As Gysberts, Cook and Morton will attest, there won't be unlimited chances. Perform or perish for everyone.

I predict that by the end of the year there will be more individual casualties, but less than last year. I also expect that the MFC will begin to regain it's self respect.

We are at year one of an almost total rebuild.

Have a long hard look at the fixture billy and see where the wins above 8 are going to come from.

Wishing us better won't get the job done.

It will be hard work in 2013 don't expect anything more and you may have a good year.

I've named 4 of them Old, and there's no wishing there. The next 4+? Well, given the fact that we will have a functional forward line (finally) in 2013, given that we will see a backline that will have more stability (due to our defenders not being required to play forward), due to the fact that we have added some bigger, experienced bodies that whilst couldn't get a regular game in other teams are still handy enough to play certain roles, and given that the likes of Trengove, Grimes, McKenzie, Sylvia and Blease will hopefully have full, uninterupted preseasons (and for Blease, Trengove and McKenzie, the fact that it's another preseason under their inexperienced belt), I expect natural improvement. The odd game that only just went against us in 2012, ie WB (Rd 4), St K (Rd 5), and wins that we should expect against poor performing interstate teams in Melbourne, plus our annual win over Essendon, my expectations are quite realistic, not wishful, when I look forward to season 2013. Anything less is not raising the bar high enough.

I've named 4 of them Old, and there's no wishing there. The next 4+? Well, given the fact that we will have a functional forward line (finally) in 2013, given that we will see a backline that will have more stability (due to our defenders not being required to play forward), due to the fact that we have added some bigger, experienced bodies that whilst couldn't get a regular game in other teams are still handy enough to play certain roles, and given that the likes of Trengove, Grimes, McKenzie, Sylvia and Blease will hopefully have full, uninterupted preseasons (and for Blease, Trengove and McKenzie, the fact that it's another preseason under their inexperienced belt), I expect natural improvement. The odd game that only just went against us in 2012, ie WB (Rd 4), St K (Rd 5), and wins that we should expect against poor performing interstate teams in Melbourne, plus our annual win over Essendon, my expectations are quite realistic, not wishful, when I look forward to season 2013. Anything less is not raising the bar high enough.

I am not trying to be hard to get along with billy but I don't see in the above where the wins above 8 are.

You are much more optimistic than me about 2013.

I just think we are coming from a long way back and it is going to take longer than you think.

You may be right but I just don't see it in 2013