I think you might be forgetting the first 6 to 8 years of Jamar because that is often how long you wait for a big man to mature.

Grundy might be good but will probably need some years to mature. its interesting to note that the 2007 No draft pick 1 Kruezer is still to consistently impact AFL football after 5 years.

I think you might be forgetting the first 6 to 8 years of Jamar because that is often how long you wait for a big man to mature.

Grundy might be good but will probably need some years to mature. its interesting to note that the 2007 No draft pick 1 Kruezer is still to consistently impact AFL football after 5 years.

Wait of 6-8 and we've only had one good year from MJ. He blossomed and wilted quickly. Maybe Rangey could do a poll on how many games we each think Jamar will play in 2013! (joke)

Kruezer is 23..............23!

Impossible to predict accurately RR, but my money's on Kruze to eclipse Jamar comprehensively. I suspect Grundy will outdo them both in time.

Over and out on the subject.

Wait of 6-8 and we've only had one good year from MJ. He blossomed and wilted quickly. Maybe Rangey could do a poll on how many games we each think Jamar will play in 2013! (joke)

Kruezer is 23..............23!

Impossible to predict accurately RR, but my money's on Kruze to eclipse Jamar comprehensively. I suspect Grundy will outdo them both in time.

Over and out on the subject.

Did you miss his point about Kruezer already being in the system for 5 yrs, and is yet to play like a ruckman taken top 5 in the draft, the same might happen to Grundy. How sad!

Did you miss his point about Kruezer already being in the system for 5 yrs, and is yet to play like a ruckman taken top 5 in the draft, the same might happen to Grundy. How sad!

Given he missed a year with a knee reco, he's actually been PLAYING for 4 years. Did you get that? Take the rose colored glasses off and see that Kruezer has shown far more in that time than Jamar did in his first 5, and he's still only 23.

Yes, you are correct in your comment that Grundy might eventually prove to be a wasted top 5 pick, just like any pick we might make at pick 4. Genius observation, JVF!

Martin heading to Brisbane for a chat.

Obviously they are very keen.

I don't really know if Martin should be though. He needs first ruck...

But I don't think there are too many clubs out there that think he can pull off being the first ruck.

Interesting that the Saints, Tigers and Crows (who took Angus Graham!) - all desperate for rucks aren't interested.

Why is it a foregone conclusion that Jamar's best is behind him? He's not yet 30, I see no reason it all that he can't return to his AA form if he's able to get some momentum up again.

Why is it a foregone conclusion that Jamar's best is behind him? He's not yet 30, I see no reason it all that he can't return to his AA form if he's able to get some momentum up again.

Insightful. Could that not be said of everyone on the list? Every player could strike good form if they got momentum. At 29, injury prone with poor stat averages (except taps) it'd need to be some pretty hefty momentum from Jamar.

Given he missed a year with a knee reco, he's actually been PLAYING for 4 years. Did you get that? Take the rose colored glasses off and see that Kruezer has shown far more in that time than Jamar did in his first 5, and he's still only 23.

Yes, you are correct in your comment that Grundy might eventually prove to be a wasted top 5 pick, just like any pick we might make at pick 4. Genius observation, JVF!

I was saying that we need a mid fielder with pick number 4. Why would you trade an experienced ruckman and play spencer or gawn ahead of Grundy until 2014, that was your idea. Our team needs a midfielder not another ruckman for us to watch and develop. Doesn't that click with you?

It's not rocket science. Our ruck options are plentifull, why get another one???

Insightful. Could that not be said of everyone on the list? Every player could strike good form if they got momentum. At 29, injury prone with poor stat averages (except taps) it'd need to be some pretty hefty momentum from Jamar.

No it couldn't be said of every player on the list, but it could be said for Jamar because he has played at that level before, and it was only a few seasons ago. I just find it amazing that you're prepared to write him off after one interrupted reason.

I don't really know if Martin should be though. He needs first ruck...

But I don't think there are too many clubs out there that think he can pull off being the first ruck.

Agree with both comments. Brisbane have Lberger. I dont think they can play Martin forward or back effectively

Interesting that the Saints, Tigers and Crows (who took Angus Graham!) - all desperate for rucks aren't interested.

How can that be when his "trade value" apparently went up with the rule change? Hmmmm

No it couldn't be said of every player on the list, but it could be said for Jamar because he has played at that level before, and it was only a few seasons ago. I just find it amazing that you're prepared to write him off after one interrupted reason.

Point taken, he's played at that level for one season. But I think you find Jamar has had more than one interrupted season and many more than one poor season.

I'm assuming that all of you Jamar fans will still be rooting for him in 12 mths time if he's had another crappy year, and supporting the remaining 2 yrs on his contract. Sheeeesh!

Point taken, he's played at that level for one season. But I think you find Jamar has had more than one interrupted season and many more than one poor season.

I'm assuming that all of you Jamar fans will still be rooting for him in 12 mths time if he's had another crappy year, and supporting the remaining 2 yrs on his contract. Sheeeesh!

yes, especially if Grundy gives him a touch up when they oppose each other!!

:-|

Given he missed a year with a knee reco, he's actually been PLAYING for 4 years. Did you get that? Take the rose colored glasses off and see that Kruezer has shown far more in that time than Jamar did in his first 5, and he's still only 23.

Yes, you are correct in your comment that Grundy might eventually prove to be a wasted top 5 pick, just like any pick we might make at pick 4. Genius observation, JVF!

Kruezer was a number one pick Jamar was a Rookie pick up. Kruezer hasn't, so far, been the player they thought he'd be and may never be.

Where did you get the "hitout to advantage" stats. Can't find them online anywhere.

see link on post # 99

see link on post # 99

Yeah cheers I realised that after the fact. I had seen that article last year, just thought there might have been somewhere you could search those stats (current ones and comparisons to other players).

Kruezer was a number one pick Jamar was a Rookie pick up. Kruezer hasn't, so far, been the player they thought he'd be and may never be.

Good work on the vigorous draft research RF. Must've taken ages. This Kruezer sidetrack is becoming very dull.

Both take a place on an AFL list. In 4 playing years Kruezer at 23 has not hit the heights Carlton had hoped. Correct. He has also played prolonged periods in the fwd line, partly due to a need for key fwds there. He has much more potential than Jamar to reach the heights again over a number of years. I want a quality ruckman for the next 8-10 years. I want Grundy. Fact.

Good work on the vigorous draft research RF. Must've taken ages. This Kruezer sidetrack is becoming very dull.

Both take a place on an AFL list. In 4 playing years Kruezer at 23 has not hit the heights Carlton had hoped. Correct. He has also played prolonged periods in the fwd line, partly due to a need for key fwds there. He has much more potential than Jamar to reach the heights again over a number of years. I want a quality ruckman for the next 8-10 years. I want Grundy. Fact.

So what to do with, Jamar, Martin, Gawn, Clark, Spencer, Fitzpatrick(nearly forgot him lol) and throw Dawes in there for a quarter if forced to. What a waste of time and money has been spent on developing our young ruckmen.

WE DONT NEED ANYMORE RUCKMEN!!!

I'm not a fan of Jamar Martin or Spencil. Gawn, TBH, is a kneeless unknown. Clark and Dawes should be fwds only. Yes, we have plenty of rucks, but with little to show for it. I acknowledge that Jamar's 3 year deal means we are committed. He has the potential to teach Grundy well. Sets us up for next 10 years in the ruck. Trade Martin, get rid of Spencer. Gawn is contracted (I think?). Fitz is VFL.

Good work on the vigorous draft research RF. Must've taken ages. This Kruezer sidetrack is becoming very dull.

Both take a place on an AFL list. In 4 playing years Kruezer at 23 has not hit the heights Carlton had hoped. Correct. He has also played prolonged periods in the fwd line, partly due to a need for key fwds there. He has much more potential than Jamar to reach the heights again over a number of years. I want a quality ruckman for the next 8-10 years. I want Grundy. Fact.

What you mean he may have the potential to reach AA like Jamar already has; yes there's that of course. Anyway don't get snippy at me I was responding to a post in which you talked about Kruzer, I didn't start the talk about him. It is interesting though that some considered him to be a standout and certain to be number one but another player in the same draft, Cotchin is clearly a much better player.

Grundy may be a great player and he may not, he may be another Vickery or another Gawn or just another player that takes 5 years to finally come good.

What you mean he may have the potential to reach AA like Jamar already has; yes there's that of course. Anyway don't get snippy at me I was responding to a post in which you talked about Kruzer, I didn't start the talk about him. It is interesting though that some considered him to be a standout and certain to be number one but another player in the same draft, Cotchin is clearly a much better player.

Grundy may be a great player and he may not, he may be another Vickery or another Gawn or just another player that takes 5 years to finally come good.

Apologies mate. I didn't start the Kruezer talk either. Was sick of the sidetrack off topic. Didn't mean to take it out on you.

Your last comment is correct, but could be applied to any new player we take.

I'm not a fan of Jamar Martin or Spencil. Gawn, TBH, is a kneeless unknown. Clark and Dawes should be fwds only. Yes, we have plenty of rucks, but with little to show for it. I acknowledge that Jamar's 3 year deal means we are committed. He has the potential to teach Grundy well. Sets us up for next 10 years in the ruck. Trade Martin, get rid of Spencer. Gawn is contracted (I think?). Fitz is VFL.

I agree with all of this, and the thought of Jamar and Grundy...wow wee!

But that means we wasted a couple of draft picks, Fitzy and Gawn, both from 2009 draft, both ruckman.

3 years down the road we don't have much to show for them .

We can't give up on them now.

Because we don't know how good either of them might be.

We really need Gawn to get the body right. He will be our Grundy for the next ten years( if his knee plays along )

Where do you stand on Pederson from North Melbourne MoonS ? If we pick him up (likely) and Grundy at pick 4, that makes my head hurt .

Pederson only if it's a very late pick. Not the 30 something pick for Martin trade. Pede has been mentioned as possible backman. Don't know. Repacement for Riv? Heard on Gys thread that talk is of Martin and Gys to Bris for a decent pick. Gawn is contracted, right?

Apologies mate. I didn't start the Kruezer talk either. Was sick of the sidetrack off topic. Didn't mean to take it out on you.

Your last comment is correct, but could be applied to any new player we take.

No problems. I'm concerned about Jamar because of his injuries, he's played 29 games in the last two years and there's no guarantee he'll be right for 22 games next year, I just don't like the thought of using pick 4 on a Ruck prospect. You need supreme fitness to ruck nowadays, just to get to all the contests and as we all know there are a lot more stoppages in the modern game; how long will it take to get Grundy up to that level of fitness.