Jack Viney has been more impressive than Ollie for me, in round 1 Viney should have got the rising star nod over Wines, he does all wines can do but will pace and better skills

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:03, D26 said:

Jack Viney has been more impressive than Ollie for me, in round 1 Viney should have got the rising star nod over Wines, he does all wines can do but will pace and better skills

You're just exposing yourself as having zero balance or perspective.

It reduces the value of your opinion.

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:09, Hannibal said:

You're just exposing yourself as having zero balance or perspective.

It reduces the value of your opinion.

Viney had 17.5 average disposals per game as opposed to Wines 18.8 average and average 3.9 tackles per game, but he did it with no support in a team that was getting belted out of the middle week in week out, he also averaged 4.2 tackles per game which is very good for a first year player, including a best of 28 touches, 5 marks, 5 tackles and a goal in a 95 point loss to fremantle, while Ollie Wines was no doubt impressive i think the fact Viney did what he did with next to no support makes him more impressive, Wines had Boak and Kornes and co supporting him, Viney was copping tags in games because we only had Nathan Jones as the only other potentially damaging mid. wines best game was 25 touches 5 tackles and 2 goals in a game where port belted adelaide by 8 goals

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:03, D26 said:

Jack Viney has been more impressive than Ollie for me, in round 1 Viney should have got the rising star nod over Wines, he does all wines can do but will pace and better skills

D26….please, dude, for the last time, Jack is not quick.

He's a beast at the ball and we could have had two competitive beasts at the ball.

Oh well, It's the Dees. Move on.

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:16, D26 said:

Viney had 17.5 average disposals per game as opposed to Wines 18.8 average and average 3.9 tackles per game, but he did it with no support in a team that was getting belted out of the middle week in week out, he also averaged 4.2 tackles per game which is very good for a first year player, including a best of 28 touches, 5 marks, 5 tackles and a goal in a 95 point loss to fremantle, while Ollie Wines was no doubt impressive i think the fact Viney did what he did with next to no support makes him more impressive, Wines had Boak and Kornes and co supporting him, Viney was copping tags in games because we only had Nathan Jones as the only other potentially damaging mid. wines best game was 25 touches 5 tackles and 2 goals in a game where port belted adelaide by 8 goals

I don't see how anyone could say Viney was MORE impressive without showing clear bias.

Now you'll probably think I don't like Viney.

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:16, D26 said:

Viney had 17.5 average disposals per game as opposed to Wines 18.8 average and average 3.9 tackles per game, but he did it with no support in a team that was getting belted out of the middle week in week out, he also averaged 4.2 tackles per game which is very good for a first year player, including a best of 28 touches, 5 marks, 5 tackles and a goal in a 95 point loss to fremantle, while Ollie Wines was no doubt impressive i think the fact Viney did what he did with next to no support makes him more impressive, Wines had Boak and Kornes and co supporting him, Viney was copping tags in games because we only had Nathan Jones as the only other potentially damaging mid. wines best game was 25 touches 5 tackles and 2 goals in a game where port belted adelaide by 8 goals

Wines has also had a taste of finals, which is invaluable to a first year player. Not only did he play, but he played well and contributed to their victory over Collingwood. Just wanted to throw the names of pick no2 Plowman and Pick no3 O'Rourke the two drafted before Toumpas, I think Plowman has played a few games and O'Rourke yet to debut.

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:22, Hannibal said:

I don't see how anyone could say Viney was MORE impressive without showing clear bias.

Now you'll probably think I don't like Viney.

No i just presented you with the basis of my argument, their stats are almost exactly the same only viney is doing it with no support in a terrible midfield making it far more impressive than Wines doing it in a very strong midfield with a finals level of support around him, every touch, Jack Viney was effectively playing as our second best mid from round 1 and still dished out performances like that, the other thing to consider is our team was often being beaten in disposals by well over 100, he has significantly less opportunity to get the ball.

i'm saying to say jack viney isn't even in the ball park is just wrong, if he was playing at port i think we'd be talking about Viney in exactly the same way people talk about Wines.

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:19, jumbo returns said:

D26….please, dude, for the last time, Jack is not quick.

He's a beast at the ball and we could have had two competitive beasts at the ball.

Oh well, It's the Dees. Move on.

He is not quick over a distance, but he shows a great burst of speed out of the contest. I think this is what D26 means, and as Viney is an inside mid a quick burst of speed is generally more necessary than speed over a longer distance which would be more advantageous for an outside mid, such as Toumpas.

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:30, J VINEY FAN said:

He is not quick over a distance, but he shows a great burst of speed out of the contest. I think this is what D26 means, and as Viney is an inside mid a quick burst of speed is generally more necessary than speed over a longer distance which would be more advantageous for an outside mid, such as Toumpas.

exactly he has a quick first couple of steps after that he isn't much above average

My mail is that Todd Viney was pushing very hard to recruit Wines and that Neeld overruled him with the Toumpas pick and that they had a fallout over it early 2013.

Don't blame Todd by any stretch.

It was that [censored] Neeld.

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:35, Tex said:

My mail is that Todd Viney was pushing very hard to recruit Wines and that Neeld overruled him with the Toumpas pick and that they had a fallout over it early 2013.

Don't blame Todd by any stretch.

It was that [censored] Neeld.

This theory is as good as any.

Bloody Neeld.

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:27, D26 said:

No i just presented you with the basis of my argument, their stats are almost exactly the same only viney is doing it with no support in a terrible midfield making it far more impressive than Wines doing it in a very strong midfield with a finals level of support around him, every touch, Jack Viney was effectively playing as our second best mid from round 1 and still dished out performances like that, the other thing to consider is our team was often being beaten in disposals by well over 100, he has significantly less opportunity to get the ball.

i'm saying to say jack viney isn't even in the ball park is just wrong, if he was playing at port i think we'd be talking about Viney in exactly the same way people talk about Wines.

Who has said Viney wasn't in the ballpark ?

Viney played 13 games compared to Wines' 24, so he's at a disadvantage already (yes injuries impact the year you've had).

Nine of Wines first 14 games were 20+ disposal games. In his first 14 games Wines averaged 21.5 possessions per game. So the first half of his year he was super impressive. Naturally a first year player tires, which happened to Wines.

Wines also had 18 possessions and kicked 2 goals in a final against Collingwood in which Port won.

He had the better year.

  On 10/03/2014 at 05:58, Hannibal said:

I thought you would have a better grasp of this.

You're underestimating a player's natural competitiveness. It's impossible to manufacture. It's not just Wines' size, which obviously helps, it's his manic appetite for the contest, which when combined with his physical attributes becomes a wonderful package. Nat Fyfe has Wines mindset too, but without the body. Toumpas doesn't have the mindset and never will.

Hogan has it, Wines has it and it is a strength that seemingly gets overlooked by supporters.

Btw, this isn't to say that Toumpas won't become a valuable mid, perhaps in the mould of a Montagna if we're lucky, but there aren't any guarantees. We already know that Wines will be a super player and competitive midfield beast for a decade.

It WAS a mistake.

My grasp is absolutely fine but your attempt at belittling didn't go unnoticed. Cheers.

I'm certainly not underestimating a players natural competitiveness or aggression. I am of the belief that certain players can overcome a fear of body contact through a number of practices which is clearly why you think I am underestimating someone's natural competitiveness.

You're simply implying that it's black and white and I disagree. There are plenty of footballers who have drastically improved their mental application to the physical side of the game. Jack Trengove is one. He's said it before in an interview, and he's certainly not 'soft'.

You bring up Fyfe, maybe you didn't watch him during under 18's. Competitive beast you say? Ha. I'll give you the Wines one as someone who clearly loves the physical stuff and always has. Same goes for Jack Viney. However if you think you've seen 'enough' in Toumpas to know that the pick was a 'mistake', than I think it's you that may not have a 'grasp'.

There's every possibility that Toumpas will be more comfortable with the physical side of the game when he develops his body further, plays more games and works on his mental application. Nobody is suggesting he'll magically adopt Viney or Wines' fearless approach.

So, so many supporters are scarred by the last seven years that they've repressed trauma.

Bring it to the surface.

Denial is bad for you.

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:50, stevethemanjordan said:

My grasp is absolutely fine but your attempt at belittling didn't go unnoticed. Cheers.

I'm certainly not underestimating a players natural competitiveness or aggression. I am of the belief that certain players can overcome a fear of body contact through a number of practices which is clearly why you think I am underestimating someone's natural competitiveness.

You're simply implying that it's black and white and I disagree. There are plenty of footballers who have drastically improved their mental application to the physical side of the game. Jack Trengove is one. He's said it before in an interview, and he's certainly not 'soft'.

You bring up Fyfe, maybe you didn't watch him during under 18's. Competitive beast you say? Ha. I'll give you the Wines one as someone who clearly loves the physical stuff and always has. Same goes for Jack Viney. However if you think you've seen 'enough' in Toumpas to know that the pick was a 'mistake', than I think it's you that may not have a 'grasp'.

There's every possibility that Toumpas will be more comfortable with the physical side of the game when he develops his body further, plays more games and works on his mental application. Nobody is suggesting he'll magically adopt Viney or Wines' fearless approach.

Yes, it's my view that it was a mistake to take Toumpas over Wines. Just an opinion, but I'm happy to have it. It doesn't mean I think Toumpas won't have a good career, just not a "Wines career". Supporters underestimate the worth of competitiveness and aggression at AFL level and imo you do too.

Never saw Fyfe as a junior, but his courage in marking contests is crazy and his attack on the footy manic. His courage has been evident from day one. If you want to paint him as a fairy at junior level that's fine, but I'm not buying it.

  On 10/03/2014 at 07:03, Hannibal said:

Yes, it's my view that it was a mistake to take Toumpas over Wines. Just an opinion, but I'm happy to have it. It doesn't mean I think Toumpas won't have a good career, just not a "Wines career". Supporters underestimate the worth of competitiveness and aggression at AFL level and imo you do too.

Never saw Fyfe as a junior, but his courage in marking contests is crazy and his attack on the footy manic. His courage has been evident from day one. If you want to paint him as a fairy at junior level that's fine, but I'm not buying it.

Yes, well I guess most would share the same view if they had careers that lasted 1 year, but thankfully they're much longer for top end talent and I'm more than happy to reserve my judgement and not make any ridiculously short-sighted ultimatums about who we should have picked.

I don't underestimate it. I've been pretty transparent about that. Just because I've restrained myself from judging who we should have picked after a year of football doesn't mean I underestimate competitiveness.

  On 10/03/2014 at 07:03, Hannibal said:

Yes, it's my view that it was a mistake to take Toumpas over Wines. Just an opinion, but I'm happy to have it. It doesn't mean I think Toumpas won't have a good career, just not a "Wines career". Supporters underestimate the worth of competitiveness and aggression at AFL level and imo you do too.

Never saw Fyfe as a junior, but his courage in marking contests is crazy and his attack on the footy manic. His courage has been evident from day one. If you want to paint him as a fairy at junior level that's fine, but I'm not buying it.

I can definitely tell you they don't make them soft where Fyfe comes from, Lake Grace, WA. Everyone I know from there I would consider pretty tough compared to the average.

Those that feel judgements before time to be abhorrent may I suggest we just call them interim assessments !!

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:46, Hannibal said:

Who has said Viney wasn't in the ballpark ?

Viney played 13 games compared to Wines' 24, so he's at a disadvantage already (yes injuries impact the year you've had).

Nine of Wines first 14 games were 20+ disposal games. In his first 14 games Wines averaged 21.5 possessions per game. So the first half of his year he was super impressive. Naturally a first year player tires, which happened to Wines.

Wines also had 18 possessions and kicked 2 goals in a final against Collingwood in which Port won.

He had the better year.

You did when you said " you're just exposing yourself as having zero balance and perspective " when i said Viney had been more impressive than wines

Wines had the luxury of being 4th or 5th in line in ports midfield where as Viney was 2nd in line, and the difference in pressure from playing for Port who were winning to being another one of our saviours would have been enormous,

i think we can agree these are two potential future stars/captains and will be constantly compared over their careers

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:03, D26 said:

Jack Viney has been more impressive than Ollie for me, in round 1 Viney should have got the rising star nod over Wines, he does all wines can do but will pace and better skills

Not even remotely close to Wines at this point - at least on performance.

While Viney might have better pace and skills, Wines has a bigger body, isn't as injury prone and is better suited to an inside game than Viney.

Ollie sticks tackles better and has a greater influence in a contest than Viney.. AFL is a different beast to juniors and Wines has adapted to it like a duck to water.

  On 10/03/2014 at 06:35, Tex said:

My mail is that Todd Viney was pushing very hard to recruit Wines and that Neeld overruled him with the Toumpas pick and that they had a fallout over it early 2013.

Don't blame Todd by any stretch.

It was that [censored] Neeld.

Sounds about right.

I havent really noticed Vineys pace as yet, am i missing something?

He is as hard as nails no doubt.

  On 10/03/2014 at 04:20, D26 said:

the recruiters who chose Toumpas also managed, Terlich, Matt Jones, Geourgiou, Kent, they have hardley missed a beat so far, and Todd Viney was like Ollie Wines second father, but they also knew Jimmy extremely well from SA footy, there is no one more informed in Australia to make the decision between those two and they are backing Toumpas to become a better player than Wines

Wines was ready to go, victorian so no go home factor, hungry to play with his best mate, it all fitted that we took Wines but they still choose toumpas, hopefully Jimmy is good enough to show us why over time, right now he needs to get back to the VFL and remember what it's like to enjoy his footy and focus on developing for now

Viney and Neeld had a falling out over Wines TV wanted him desperatly just like the majority of us I watched Toumpas closely on Saturday and he has great skills but he runs funny and his courage is questionable,just another poor decision and what's amazing is that professional footy people that a paid massive $$$$$$$$ couldn't see what the rest of us could.

  On 10/03/2014 at 09:06, DeeZee said:

I havent really noticed Vineys pace as yet, am i missing something?

He is as hard as nails no doubt.

Its the part of his game that I think is elite, he hits the contest at pace and is out the other side in space so he can deliver a pass not under pressure.

http://youtu.be/Z4XuP3Z6qGo 1:10

  On 10/03/2014 at 09:06, DeeZee said:

I havent really noticed Vineys pace as yet, am i missing something?

He is as hard as nails no doubt.

About 1minute in again shows great reading of the play and pace away from the contest. Great to watch

http://youtu.be/ODrqV-1j-PU