Right. Well, I can sympathise with that.

But I simply don't understand those who claim to support the club, but then spend all their time beating everyone else over the head with a defeatist attitude and take any chance to stick the boot into their own club.

I really can't see what they get out of it, but I do see the effect it has on others who have to hear it.

I can't argue with that.

I guess the main point I had in mind when starting this thread was to get past the handwringing and revisionist history espoused by the media and supporters on forums. All of the things that have happened in the past are just that and for better or worse some of these events are yet to fully play out. Since about 1994 when I first started following the club closely, it generally hasn't mattered who has been coach, captain, president, recruitment officer or even playing on the field... Melbourne players have generally dropped their heads and not really worked hard enough to protect and honour their team mates.

I refuse to believe we have had a collective, consecutive bunch of idiots coaching the club during that time. It is a matter of public record that Daniher thought we were soft when he took over in late 1997 - while he gets most of the blame for that issue never being fully resolved, it wasn't he who was out there dropping his head, not tackling and not playing with intensity on game day. It is ultimately the responsibilty of the playing group on the day to stand up and do the club proud - whether its Jack Watts, Ben Holland, Craig Ellis, Brent Grgic, Andrew Obst or Chris Sullivan wearing the jumper!

I think supporters are allowed to feel whatever way they are feeling.

If they are disappointed, then they are disappointed.

It also nonsense that we, as supporters, beget these pathetic displays by our team with any 'infectious hopelessness.'

Look at the depression of Demonland after Rd 1, 2010 - the team then came out and played a great game against the eventual premiers.

If the boys show some heart, we will be heartened.

I don't contend that, but over time it will have had an effect, however small, in making the club weaker than it previously was.

LOL - so its because of frustrated supporters venting their spleen that 10K members from last year are yet to resign? Get a grip on reality man!

No, but it does contribute to making the club weaker.

And it's not simply venting their spleen.

Case in point:

When the club is playing VFL standard football after 4 years of a "rebuild" i have no problems with passionate supporters having a vent. As Jimmy C says many of us sacrifice time and $$$ to go and support the Demons. The supporters who do make noise are the ones who do care. The quiet ones have walked.

Still waiting for the magic formula you have been spouting re "The Buy in"....?

Thoughtless and over-the-top criticism.

It's pathetic, defeatist, unnecessary and incorrect.

I don't contend that, but over time it will have had an effect, however small, in making the club weaker than it previously was.

Our hoplessness in the stands comes from continued hopelessness over time on the field.

Therefore, this is no chicken and egg argument - onfield hopelessness begets (really, word of the day) our hopelessness and the ingrained 'weakness' of the club.

Our hoplessness in the stands comes from continued hopelessness over time on the field.

Therefore, this is no chicken and egg argument - onfield hopelessness begets (really, word of the day) our hopelessness and the ingrained 'weakness' of the club.

I've been following the club a long time, yet I don't have a pathetic defeatist attitude.

Nor do you.

Fantastic & its fantastic we all pitched in when needed. But sadly, thats not enough in AFL 2012. The "job" is only half done. If it is to be its up to me! Its your choice - no big deal to me.

get your quotes correct. it should be "If it is to be it is up to me" (all 2 letter words)

sloppy work doc, another example of a half done job?

No, but it does contribute to making the club weaker.

And it's not simply venting their spleen.

Case in point:

Thoughtless and over-the-top criticism.

It's pathetic, defeatist, unnecessary and incorrect.

No it is actually the cold hard Fact Ned Flanders. Watch last mondays game again, then it will make sense.

Jimmi C:

http://demonland.com...__fromsearch__1

Thanks HT,

A pertinent thread that is what this one is trying to get at.... Feel free to merge if necessary! I think the new leadership group announced in February was probably in recognition of the need to set a new standard and culture.

However, in the first two matches - the head dropping and poor body language has still been evident, along with not shepherding, jumping all over one another etc.

It really needs to be addressed, probably with an iron fist at the selection table.

No, but it does contribute to making the club weaker.

And it's not simply venting their spleen.

Case in point:

Thoughtless and over-the-top criticism.

It's pathetic, defeatist, unnecessary and incorrect.

It can also be argued that it's accurate.

EDIT: Look I'm not saying that we should be entitled to kick the club when it's down but the supporters are getting very frustrated and disenchanted with perpetual failure - can you blame them? It is getting to the point where going to the football is actually stressful not enjoyable. I'm not saying we have to win every or even most games. I can cop being a young team, learning new structures, rebuilding blah blah blah. What I can't cop is the team not giving 100% commitment to the ball, to the contest, to their teammates, the club and supporters. You say it starts with the supporters, well I think its reciprocal. Put your head over the ball and bust a gut like the Hawks and Cats did on the weekend and no supporter can complain. We may still lose by 108 points but at least the players can come off the ground and look their coaches, each other the media & supporters in the eye and say they left nothing out on the field. That is why supporters are so angry and frustrated at the moment, not because of mere losses.

No it is actually the cold hard Fact Ned Flanders. Watch last mondays game again, then it will make sense.

I've seen it.

It is well above VFL standard.

And you lack the understanding for how long a rebuild will take, not to mention what.

It is also not simply "venting" as you put it.

It is a sustained exaggerated defeatist attitude towards the club.

You're free to do it, and I'm free to say it is pathetic and you should show more backbone.

I've no qualms with considered constructive criticism, but there is so little of that from so few.

It can also be argued that it's accurate.

Go on then...

Thanks HT,

A pertinent thread that is what this one is trying to get at.... Feel free to merge if necessary! I think the new leadership group announced in February was probably in recognition of the need to set a new standard and culture.

However, in the first two matches - the head dropping and poor body language has still been evident, along with not shepherding, jumping all over one another etc.

It really needs to be addressed, probably with an iron fist at the selection table.

Spot on. Who went into bat for grimes when he got crunched?

Nobody. The ghosts of 2011 & there are many, have not yet left the building.

I've seen it.

It is well above VFL standard.

And you lack the understanding for how long a rebuild will take, not to mention what.

It is also not simply "venting" as you put it.

It is a sustained exaggerated defeatist attitude towards the club.

You're free to do it, and I'm free to say it is pathetic and you should show more backbone.

I've no qualms with considered constructive criticism, but there is so little of that from so few.

You are telling me the MFC are playing a standard of Footy at present that is above VFL standard??

What is exactly showing a bit more backbone anyway?? Is that another level to your "buy in"?

Do tell us all. I am not working till tonight. So i have time.

Thanks HT,

A pertinent thread that is what this one is trying to get at.... Feel free to merge if necessary! I think the new leadership group announced in February was probably in recognition of the need to set a new standard and culture.

However, in the first two matches - the head dropping and poor body language has still been evident, along with not shepherding, jumping all over one another etc.

It really needs to be addressed, probably with an iron fist at the selection table.

I won't merge, just wanted to contribute my thoughts in this thread rather then re-hash what I posted. Just as relevant today and any day really.

Whilst the first game was disappointing and the Perth trip was a big hurdle in the heat. If the team can spread as instructed whilst maintaining the defensive side of the game, there will be upside.

Spot on. Who went into bat for grimes when he got crunched?

Nobody. The ghosts of 2011 & there are many, have not yet left the building.

There is no doubt that this is true, main reason for this is that we have the same senior players, bar Mitch Clark.

Thanks HT,

A pertinent thread that is what this one is trying to get at.... Feel free to merge if necessary! I think the new leadership group announced in February was probably in recognition of the need to set a new standard and culture.

However, in the first two matches - the head dropping and poor body language has still been evident, along with not shepherding, jumping all over one another etc.

It really needs to be addressed, probably with an iron fist at the selection table.

Jimmi, I think that the content of the OP is fine, I object to the use of the word "requiem" and the implications that it draws...

So answer the question i posed to your body double.

I havn't got a clue what you waffle on about. But such is life.

get your quotes correct. it should be "If it is to be it is up to me" (all 2 letter words)

sloppy work doc, another example of a half done job?

The spelling Nazi strikes again - thanks for the English lesson (I must of missed that class or my English teacher was hopeless)

- But thats right I was out playing footy with the boys. Oh Yes this is a footy forum shock horror! B)

I havn't got a clue what you waffle on about. But such is life.

Waffles do taste real good with maple syrup and lashings of clotted cream. Try it.

The spelling Nazi strikes again - thanks for the English lesson (I must of have missed that class or my English teacher was hopeless)

- But thats right I was out playing footy with the boys. Oh Yes this is a footy forum shock horror! B)

Free English grammar lesson doc.

Remember, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well

We can all improve ourselves with the right development, eh

Hille < Jamar

Fletcher > Rivers

Watson > Green

McVeigh < Moloney

It's a bloody tough one, because obviously we don't know what happens (ie what is said) on the field or behind closed doors. I wouldn't call Hille a better leader than Jamar, Fletcher appears to be a far greater leader than Rivers, Watson easily has Green covered (especially when comparing them to last year when both were fairly fresh captains), and while McVeigh appears to make a lot of noise, I think Moloney would offer more as a leader. But, I could be totally wrong.

One thing I strongly believe is that on paper, I don't think they are that much ahead of us, I just don't understand why they perform so much better. I especially don't think it's that their leadership is far superior.

thats interesting...seriously

though Id rate McVeigh higher than Moloney as he seems to have much more of an idea about much more about footy. Beamer may have more "toughs' , but McVeigh has more clue. As to rest. Interesting.As you summise though it doesnt help us much in reality. More the pity

Free English grammar lesson doc.

Remember, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well

We can all improve ourselves with the right development, eh

Thanks - I need them at times. Happy for you to point them out to me any time. Definitely, never was my strength.

Cheers. Keep Punching

Thanks - I need them at times. Happy for you to point them out to me any time. Definitely, never was my strength.

Cheers. Keep Punching

you're very welcome doc

remember, leave no stones un-turned, never ever accept mediocrity and you too can be a winner

hang in there

you're very welcome doc

remember, leave no stones un-turned, never ever accept mediocrity and you too can be a winner

hang in there

Love ya work DC hahaha!