MFC - Where are we honestly at

[Hells Gates 505]

Ok, Ive gone away and had a good think once again at where we are at and it doesnt look good to me. Firstly I would like to say that I am extremely happy with the way things are going off the field, coaches, FD spendature, we are heading in the right direction, no question at all.

My absolute disappointment is in the way we have recruited. The AFL has given us a perfect opportunity because of our performances to build a dynasty through first round draft picks. As some people have taken the time on here like Clint to point out we have really missed the boat. Even going back to 2003 when Sylvia was drafted. I have no doubt that this coaching group will make these players the best they can possibly be but the reality is they are only average players and I dont see us worthy of challenging anything with this list. Im not negative, Im a realist. I can see how people are asking to wait on recent drafts, fair enough, but my problem goes back alot further. Remember Geelong didnt take long to start making the pre lims after they started their re build. To me we started in 2003 and should be well ahead of where we are - no excuses. I will only list players taken in the first round or close to, anything above that is a bonus in my eyes as we still would of picked them up anyway, we have failed at our top draft picks.

2001:

pick 9 - Luke Molan

Rookie pick: Mark Jamar - whilst a great tap ruckman, still doesnt do enough damage around the ground for me, not like a Cox or Sandi.

2002:

#14 - Daniel Bell

#15 - Nick Smith

2003:

#3 priority - Colin Sylvia - At 26 should of reached peak consistantly by now, lazy, looks tough but isnt. Poor output for a number 3 pick.

#5 - Brock McLean - Slow and lazy.

Did pick up Davey as a rookie but jury is now out again.

2004:

#13 - Matthew Bate

#15 - Lynden Dunn

Dunn has been the pick of the two, finished off a season well a few years back but both have stalled. Both on thin ice. Bate is way too slow for the midfield, wont make it there.

2005:

#12 - Nath Jones - gives his all week in/week out, is improving but jury still out on disposal efficiency - to me its improving.

2006:

#12 - James Frawley - hooray, we are on the board here. Absolute star.

Picked up Petterd & Garland,my brother late in the draft. Jury still out on Petterds inconsistancy.

2007:

#4 - Cale Morton - showed a little early, not a lot the last few years. Like a rabbit looking into headlights. There are people smaller than Cale in AFL that go in alot harder. Soft.

#14 - Jack Grimes - 32 games in 4-5 years. Now captain & cant doubt his courage, not the best disposal but reads the play well and a good mark. Recruited with injury concerns and nothing much has changed. Unless he can start remaining on the park there is a big question mark here. Once again recruiters knew about his injuries.

2008:

#1 - Jack Watts - has all the skills but he has an extremely long way to go before he is crunching packs like a CHF should do. You can make as many excuses for him as you want but I think the critisism of late by Carey & Malthouse is worthy even if it is NAB cup, likes the outside game.

#17 - priority - Sam Blease - Too early to tell, has speed & from what I have seen good by foot, but poor tank, mainly because of injury I would say. Is he best 22?

#19 - James Strauss - injuries, has shown a bit, not alot though. Is he best 22?

2009: I will put these in just to give my opinion.

#1 - priority - Tom Scully - somehow backfired with him leaving. Got alot of the footy in TAC cup but once again recruited with terrible disposal and soft as butter. Maybe something with his personality wasnt picked up in his interview? I dont know. The fact his Dad was working for another club would sound alarm bells to me straight away anyway.

#2 - Jack Trengove - I watched a lot of him on the SANFL, was a star especially during finals. Has the ability but I dont think he will be a star. Now Co Capt.

#11 - Jordan Gysberts - This will be the pick of the bunch IMO. Natural footballer, just needs to work on bulking up and fitness. Similar traits to Pendles.

#18 - Luke Tapscott - Excellent by foot, good mark and courageous. Injuries a worry. Was recruited with OP problems.

#34 - Max Gawn - I will add him as I would of taken Vardy everyday of the week. Recruited with knee problems and nothing has changed.

I will stop it there. You can blame FD spending all you like, but seriously, think about what you are saying. North won 2 flags in the 90's with the worst FD spending. In recent seasons the WB's have been a genuine top 4 team and made a few pre lims, they dont have much money. And StK, made the most out of their draft picks with a poor FD and continually make the finals albeit top 4 and even a Grand final in recent years, so stop making excuses. I do believe we have to keep up with the times though.

Our rebuilds started long ago and we just keep going around in circles. Whilst we have snagged a couple of OK rookies/pre season picks which we still would of got anyway we have pathetically failed with our first round picks which were set up for us to build a powerhouse. Even our depth picks through these years have been somewhat shocking and alot have been moved on.

Whether we like it or not, we have failed and missed a very big opportunity and we have to start all over again. A lot of people here seem to be in dreamland and overate our list by a long way. The news for you is they will improve with a better FD but they will only be average players at best, we should of had a few stars by now considering our first round picks. I see the potential for only one star after all these drafts - James Frawley. That says it all

BP did not even interview Dustin Martin - are you serious? When you build a house you dont get the first builder, you get quotes. Its absolutely pathetic that this was let to happen. Martin was an AA midfielder, why wouldnt you get him in for a quick chat?

I wasnt a huge fan of Dean Bailey, but what he did do was pump games into kids, more than any other club in the AFL. These kids should of matured quicker than other teams, but some have overtaken us like North & Richmond. People use the excuse about senior players to learn from but these two teams dont have many either.

Maybe it wasnt Baileys fault, even though I think it was the right decision for him to move on, maybe the cattle that we drafted is so overated?

For me, twist it, turn it, paint it pretty colours and tell yourselves what a powerhouse we will be but the fact is we have failed with our drafting for a long time, things dont look good for me. If you think that our current group will bring us success then I doubt your knowledge of what is right or wrong.

Recruiting - Epic Failure.

Feel free to argue amongst yourselves as I wont be here and nothing will change my opinion as that is exactly what it is - MY Opinion.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Hells Gates

[Guest Dr Who]

you're moving the goal posts a bit here

you initially implied the root problem of the club was the 'negativity' of supporters who didn't 'buy in' (whatever that means). As if fixing up this supposed negativity of supporters would swing around the club's fortunes.

If what you are really saying now is that we need to increase our revenue and invest more into the football dept then I think most posters here would agree and many have raised this issue for a number of years so there is no reason for you to continue abusing your fellow posters.

If you think the 'big' club's supporters are always posting in a positive way then I suggest you spend some time on their forums. You will find they are just as searching and challenging and passionate and emotional as here.

Here is you answer -

"Recruiting - Epic Failure. Feel free to argue amongst yourselves as I wont be here and nothing will change my opinion as that is exactly what it is - MY Opinion."

No goal post moved, its a two front discussion it has to be. But its been falling on some deaf ears for 10 years and it will continue to fall on some deaf ears. No big deal. But some will stop a think.

[Travis Boots 157]

I completely agree with you. Personally i dont think our premiership window ( if at all) will open until 2016 onwards when the old brigade have departed and the younger guns like trengove, howe, grimes, frawley etc are the senior players. Naturally our drafting over the next 3-4 years will need to be spot on.

Based on what we've shown in the pre season i can see us finishing between 12-15th. If this is the case we will have 3 top 10 draft picks to play with. Hopefully we dont stuff those up either but without a proper recruitment team it is a concern. At least if we finis 16th we will only need a 2nd round pick for Viney. Lol

[Hells Gates 505]

Here is you answer -

"Recruiting - Epic Failure. Feel free to argue amongst yourselves as I wont be here and nothing will change my opinion as that is exactly what it is - MY Opinion."

No goal post moved, its a two front discussion it has to be. But its been falling on some deaf ears for 10 years and it will continue to fall on some deaf ears. No big deal. But some will stop a think.

Did I say something wrong??

[Guest melbman]

you're moving the goal posts a bit here

you initially implied the root problem of the club was the 'negativity' of supporters who didn't 'buy in' (whatever that means). As if fixing up this supposed negativity of supporters would swing around the club's fortunes.

If what you are really saying now is that we need to increase our revenue and invest more into the football dept then I think most posters here would agree and many have raised this issue for a number of years so there is no reason for you to continue abusing your fellow posters.

If you think the 'big' club's supporters are always posting in a positive way then I suggest you spend some time on their forums. You will find they are just as searching and challenging and passionate and emotional as here.

Hey DC.

I thought the argument had shifted from fan support equalling footy failure to football spending as well. Certainly my comments were based on the supporter blame but as you say, if root cause is footy dept spends then yes, we've been way behind for too long as we've known for decades

There was also a mention that recruiting wasn't the issue but not sure if that was from a root cause/symptom perspective or just that it wasn't as important as folk believed.

[Jack Jack 415]

I've pinched some figures I found on BigFooty.

Not a comprehensive list, but enough to give you an idea.

Collingwood - $19,412,167

Geelong - $18,821,742

Essendon - $18,510,078

Carlton - $17,831,197

Melbourne - $16,309,582

St Kilda - $16,974,040

Brisbane - $16,061,596

Port Adelaide - $15,682,596

North Melbourne - $15,280,850

Western Bulldogs - $14,694,994

Bear in mind that the total spend includes the players salary. Did we spend the total cap last year?

And Geelong & the Pies being in Premiership contention would obviously be spending more on getting important players back from injury.

But there still remains a chasm between the have's and have not's.

I think the important thing to take from the figures is that big budgets don't necessarily guarantee sucess and that a team can still be successful with a modest budget. By recruiting good players and good coaches you're in with a chance, the Bulldogs & Saints being good examples. But that additional spending will certainly help reach the ultimate success.

Where does that leave us? We've had the same opportunity as everyone else to dip into the draft, if we've recruited any potential stars then we're still waiting for them to develop. Plenty of potential, no stars.

So until such time that we a lot closer to glory, then I don't think we can use money, or a lack there of, as an excuse.

Edit: Maybe I should have used better examples than the Bulldogs & Saints. They've been up there for a while but didn't actually do that well last year. The message is still there though.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Jack Jack

[Freak 100]

scully soft?

he is a hard nut. its amazing how much everyone changes their opinion on scully just because he left.

an absolute machine.

[Bonkers 988]

I've pinched some figures I found on BigFooty.

Not a comprehensive list, but enough to give you an idea.

Bear in mind that the total spend includes the players salary. Did we spend the total cap last year?

And Geelong & the Pies being in Premiership contention would obviously be spending more on getting important players back from injury.

But there still remains a chasm between the have's and have not's.

I think the important thing to take from the figures is that big budgets don't necessarily guarantee sucess and that a team can still be successful with a modest budget. By recruiting good players and good coaches you're in with a chance, the Bulldogs & Saints being good examples. But that additional spending will certainly help reach the ultimate success.

Where does that leave us? We've had the same opportunity as everyone else to dip into the draft, if we've recruited any potential stars then we're still waiting for them to develop. Plenty of potential, no stars.

So until such time that we a lot closer to glory, then I don't think we can use money, or a lack there of, as an excuse.

The only exception to bucking the trend in terms of FD spend equalling success in the last 10 years are Sydney & almost St.kilda. West Coast, Geelong, Hawthorn & Collingwood are at the top of the food chain & Brisbane had large salary cap exemptions. The 2 teams that have challenged this trend are Sydney & St Kilda who both played lock down defensive football & funnily enough Ross Lyon & Dave Misson were involved at both those clubs. (Edit forgot Port Adelaide 2004, not sure if they had salary exemptions?)

Edited March 18, 2012 by Bonkers

[Hells Gates 505]

scully soft?

he is a hard nut. its amazing how much everyone changes their opinion on scully just because he left.

an absolute machine.

I hope you are being sarcastic?

I did not change my opinion when Scully left at all, I had this opinion from the first time I watched him in the TAC cup and during our games. A hard nut? Dont be so friggin stupid. He is an outside runner, nowhere near a hard nut. I dont recall seeing him throw himself into packs, do you?

[Jack Jack 415]

The only exception to bucking the trend in terms of FD spend equalling success in the last 10 years are Sydney & almost St.kilda. West Coast, Geelong, Hawthorn & Collingwood are at the top of the food chain & Brisbane had large salary cap exemptions. The 2 teams that have challenged this trend are Sydney & St Kilda who both played lock down defensive football & funnily enough Ross Lyon & Dave Misson were involved at both those clubs. (Edit forgot Port Adelaide 2004, not sure if they had salary exemptions?)

The point I was trying to make is that you don't necessarily need to spend big to be a successful team. Saints and Bulldogs got close without a huge budget. They've probably got a case for missing out on ultimate success due to an underfunded football department.

Even though our budget is smaller than the Hawthorn's & Geelong's we've had access to some good draft picks, budget shouldn't preclude us from being a good team. When we get to the pointy end of the competition then I will accept football spending as an excuse, but it will only be for not going the full distance.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

How about people STFU about premiership windows for our team already?

Let's try and have a couple of consistent games in a row first.

[old dee 23,503]

Where are we at?

Well if the premiership is at midnight I'd say its about 2:30am at the moment

gee DC You have got some confidence recently

My estimate is about 1.10AM

[Bonkers 988]

The point I was trying to make is that you don't necessarily need to spend big to be a successful team. Saints and Bulldogs got close without a huge budget. They've probably got a case for missing out on ultimate success due to an underfunded football department.

Even though our budget is smaller than the Hawthorn's & Geelong's we've had access to some good draft picks, budget shouldn't preclude us from being a good team. When we get to the pointy end of the competition then I will accept football spending as an excuse, but it will only be for not going the full distance.

Yeah your right you don't have to be the biggest spender to have a "good" side. The difference tho between good or also ran & becoming successful is pretty much budget judging by the recent premiers.

When you factor in the average age of our list, the fact we have no A grade players or leaders & the under funded football department over the years it's no wonder we are not a contender for the 8 IMO.

[daisycutter 29,341]

gee DC You have got some confidence recently

My estimate is about 1.10AM

Thats because you must be on West Coast Time?

Anyway, I hope there is less talk of premiership windows and more talk of just stringing a few wins together

[dee-luded 2,959]

Hey DC.

I thought the argument had shifted from fan support equalling footy failure to football spending as well. Certainly my comments were based on the supporter blame but as you say, if root cause is footy dept spends then yes, we've been way behind for too long as we've known for decades

There was also a mention that recruiting wasn't the issue but not sure if that was from a root cause/symptom perspective or just that it wasn't as important as folk believed.

IMO we've probably been falling back off in every off field department since around '88ish.... we lost some good personnel & I can't see we replaced them then.

Or kept up with the game since. > Desire to? apathy???

#Edit: I do like where were headed with the footy dept' this year.

Hopefully we have the right direction gamestyle wise now so we can recruit according to that phylosophy. I think this is Important. so I think also you can't go wrong always looking to build a contested possession team.

Edited March 18, 2012 by dee-luded

[rpfc 28,052]

1996 -Melbourne members vote in favour of merging with Hawthorn 4,679 to 4,229. Hawthorn members overwhelmingly vote it down led by Don Scott 5,241 to 2,841. Whats the point of this ? That Melbourne members voted thier own club out of existence. What type of club culture does that set......

The culture can change again but takes EVERYBODY to change it, Board, Administration, Coaches, Players and Supporters.

Start another thread if you want to talk about The Merger ©.

I had friends and family in both camps and I will let you in on a secret - those in favour of the merger were all about maintaining the existence of the MFC.

[old dee 23,503]

Hells gate I read your summery and it makes me feel quite ill

if you are correct the GF is 10 years off.

Unfortunately I cannot find much to disagree with.

If you are correct the MFC may not be around in 2022.

Free agency will kill the bottom 6 - 8 teams over the next 10 years.

I was hopeful we would be around 8th by now to escape the plundering of the bottom sides.

But it now looks like we should prepare for the assult in 2013

[old dee 23,503]

Start another thread if you want to talk about The Merger ©.

I had friends and family in both camps and I will let you in on a secret - those in favour of the merger were all about maintaining the existence of the MFC.

Spot on rpfc

Ian Ridley did more for the MFC over his life time than almost anyone I can think of, ever ( perhaps One exception ).

It may not have been the worse thing that happened to the MFC.

Jury is still out on that subject.

[Guest Dr Who]

Even though our budget is smaller than the Hawthorn's & Geelong's we've had access to some good draft picks, budget shouldn't preclude us from being a good team.

But isn't that the whole bone of contention - "where are we HONESTLY at" - budgets do preclude you from developing your whole player list from reaching their highest potential. Access to good picks stand for nothing if you cant develop them.

When we get to the pointy end of the competition then I will accept football spending as an excuse, but it will only be for not going the full distance.

What comes first the chicken or the eggs. Its clear the facts are pointing toward if you dont at least match your opposition FD departments spend you wont get to the "pointy end"

Edited March 18, 2012 by Dr Who

[old dee 23,503]

Thats because you must be on West Coast Time?

Anyway, I hope there is less talk of premiership windows and more talk of just stringing a few wins together

Hell no DC that would make it 11.30 PM.

Otherwise I agree we are so far behind we cannot see the band let alone hear it.

I can honestly say I have never felt this bad ( well that I can remember ) before the first game of the year.

186 may not be the low water mark come 5th. May.

It is 48 hours since the debarcle of SA and I think over that time I have concluded that if the cards fall the right way we may win 6 games.

Which I guess is better than 2008 and 9 and about the level of last year.

Please mr. football god can we please not have any 186's or close and keep the 10 goal losses to just a few.

If that happens the winter will be endurable.

Endurable I think is the best that can be expected

[bing181 8,999]

Did I say something wrong??

You're back? You said you wouldn't be here.

[daisycutter 29,341]

Hell no DC that would make it 11.30 PM.

Otherwise I agree we are so far behind we cannot see the band let alone hear it.

I can honestly say I have never felt this bad ( well that I can remember ) before the first game of the year.

186 may not be the low water mark come 5th. May.

It is 48 hours since the debarcle of SA and I think over that time I have concluded that if the cards fall the right way we may win 6 games.

Which I guess is better than 2008 and 9 and about the level of last year.

Please mr. football god can we please not have any 186's or close and keep the 10 goal losses to just a few.

If that happens the winter will be endurable.

Endurable I think is the best that can be expected

i share your preseason depression

maybe if we start at a low enough level we are inured to further disappointment and any positives will be pleasant surprises

but maybe i'm just kidding myself..................

as usual i will turn up to all melb games and be there at the final siren but i can't raise much enthusiasm at the moment

i haven't felt this way the last 4 years even knowing we were rebuilding and wouldn't win many games

I got my satisfaction watching the development of players. Unfortunately too many are treading water, going backwards or "need another 3-4 years, be patient".

the first half of the season this year is tough so i don't expect to be in any better mood come mid season

[GRUN DEE 69]

We are bottom 4 at the moment! I can only see GC, GWS and Brisbane possibly below us. Richmond & Port are just so much more urgent and hungry. We dont have the hunger.

Richmond & Adelaide I am most impressed with there pre-season. But it is only the pre-season!

Lets see 10 rounds in.

We definitely need our medicore players to break out! If only we had Dustin Martin. He just gets it done and his teamates follow.

[old dee 23,503]

i share your preseason depression

maybe if we start at a low enough level we are inured to further disappointment and any positives will be pleasant surprises

but maybe i'm just kidding myself..................

as usual i will turn up to all melb games and be there at the final siren but i can't raise much enthusiasm at the moment

i haven't felt this way the last 4 years even knowing we were rebuilding and wouldn't win many games

I got my satisfaction watching the development of players. Unfortunately too many are treading water, going backwards or "need another 3-4 years, be patient".

the first half of the season this year is tough so i don't expect to be in any better mood come mid season

I think you are channeling my mind DC.

Yes I will troop off to the games again as I have for the last 52 years

I am off overseas at the end of April so I will miss the Saints game and the slaughter at Simonds Stadium.

But arrive home just in time for the hawks on May 11, now that is some thing to look forward to!

[Craig Drinker 179]

1996 -Melbourne members vote in favour of merging with Hawthorn 4,679 to 4,229. Hawthorn members overwhelmingly vote it down led by Don Scott 5,241 to 2,841. Whats the point of this ? That Melbourne members voted thier own club out of existence. What type of club culture does that set......

The culture can change again but takes EVERYBODY to change it, Board, Administration, Coaches, Players and Supporters.

Somewhat misguided figures re the Melbourne members voting their own club out of existence.History will show these figures as correct however what is not factored in to these figures was the large amount of Melbourne members locked out of the vote and the "fix" that was in on the proxy votes.

Take these factors into account and there is no way the majority of members voted for a merger(or their club out of existence).

This was 'Attempted Merger' by stealth and very dispicable!!!