Funny how stats dont always convey the reality . We have a New coach . I wonder if Jamar has specific instructions . These may altet the outcomes

Good call....but, if he can't do the basics, at least bloody block.

Can form count for nothing. He is playing in a bad side and still at least giving it a go.

I'd give the young rucks a chance but Gawn, Martin and Fitzpatrick have all been injured and Spencer isn't a legitimate option.

If bringing Martin in as a FP alternate with Jamar manages to keep Clarke where he does his greatest damage, as a leading FF then I say bring Martin in.

But Jamar's lack of marking, and lack of "presence" around the ground IS becoming a real concern.

By the way, is there any recent news re Fitzy and his diabetes? Poor bugger can't take a trick. Opportunity beckons and then this, and another injury, hits him.

Edited June 14, 201213 yr by monoccular

why are so may so blind

I'd dispute the fact that he's played zero good games this year. His use around the ground has been sub-par compared to what we've come to expect, but he's #1 in the comp for hitouts - surely this is a pretty crucial KPI for a ruckman.

Even if you believe he is in poor form, ideally contract terms should be about the long term value to the club, not short term form. I.e. that the a guy might happen to be in a (potentially) short term form slump shouldn't shape his contract for the next 2+ years.

I don't consider one good year out of nearly ten at the club, a "short term form slump".

I admire the guy for the effort he puts in, and what he'sachieved with(in my opinion) very limited talent.

But look at the stats on his hit out effectiveness! It's deplorable!!

But I don't care about the stats. It's obvious watching the game. He hasn't got the knack of finding his "rovers".

I'd dispute the fact that he's played zero good games this year. His use around the ground has been sub-par compared to what we've come to expect, but he's #1 in the comp for hitouts - surely this is a pretty crucial KPI for a ruckman.

Even if you believe he is in poor form, ideally contract terms should be about the long term value to the club, not short term form. I.e. that the a guy might happen to be in a (potentially) short term form slump shouldn't shape his contract for the next 2+ years.

Hit outs don't mean a thing if they go everywhere except to a team-mate. We'd be better off having Jamar whack the ball 20 metres than what's going on at the moment. I'd also prefer him to kick the ball long towards the boundary instead of trying to palm it off, and instead of trying to mark the ball, he should treat it like a ruck contest and belt the ball toward the boundary line (in the backline) or into the hotspot (if in the forward line).

The reason I get so frustrated with Jamar is that he's got one fantastic strength that he manages to turn into something we rarely gain any benefit from.

But look at the stats on his hit out effectiveness! It's deplorable!!

Does anyone know where to find stats on effective hitouts? I've been wanting to see how Jamar compares with other rucks in this regard.

My impression is we are not reaping the benefit of all the hitouts he is accredited with (ie first in AFL).

Every match the Champion data stats for hit out effectiveness are quoted in the papers the next day, with all the other stats. I haven't seen any cumulative stats, though they may be in the 'Footy Record".

Jamar is quite consistent at about 19percent efficiency.

From careful observation, I'm surprised it's that high.

Good ruckmen have efficiency at about 35-40 percent.

Every match the Champion data stats for hit out effectiveness are quoted in the papers the next day, with all the other stats. I haven't seen any cumulative stats, though they may be in the 'Footy Record".

Jamar is quite consistent at about 19percent efficiency.

From careful observation, I'm surprised it's that high.

Good ruckmen have efficiency at about 35-40 percent.

I would say the fact that he's tapping down to a midfield group that rates about a 19 out of 100 for quality would have a lot to do with it JJC.

It seemed to me

that we kick to him on a majority of kickouts and while he makes a contest he is usually surrounded by oposition players who feed off him. Where are our loose players? Why dont we kick to them until Jamar is one out and se if he can take a mark?

He does seem to get some possesions becuase he always handballs off. This is so predictable that the opponents are able to man up on the receiver and put more pressure on. Why not tell him to kick to one of our players in space?

Every match the Champion data stats for hit out effectiveness are quoted in the papers the next day, with all the other stats. I haven't seen any cumulative stats, though they may be in the 'Footy Record".

Jamar is quite consistent at about 19percent efficiency.

From careful observation, I'm surprised it's that high.

Good ruckmen have efficiency at about 35-40 percent.

Thanks JCC. I haven't seen the stats in the papers. I've searched online and the best I could find was an article on this topic from 2011:

http://www.playerrater.com.au/news/statisticalanalysis

Last season Jamar ranked number 1 for hit outs to advantage (41.4%).

If his proportion of effective hit outs this year is lower, I agree with RR it is probably is more to do with the midfielders around him and how they are being coached (ie their set up positions at stoppages).

My reason for contributing to this thread has been to propose the contention that perhaps the reason we get so few clearances is not entirely due to our midfielders' lack of ability. Perhaps we've assumed wrongly that they're getting good supply from Jamar.

Last Monday's footy record quotes Jamar's hit outs to advantage as 19%.The AFL average is 24%.

The 2011 figures quoted above are after Jamar's very best year(his all-Aust selection year). He's never mentioned by the experts as being one of the top ruckmen now, or in most other seasons.I could easily name 10 ruckmen at present who are indisputably better than him.

I'd love to see how Moloney et al would perform with Cox, Sandilands , Maric,or Jolly etc feeding them. I suspect they'd do better than they are now.

But we've committed ourselves for three years, and in my opinion it's going to hold back the four ruck prospects we have(Gawn,Spencer, Martin and Fitzpatrick.) I earnestly hope that my sentiments are incorrect, and we've done the right thing.

Perhaps we should do what Hawthorn have done so effectively for many years. Instead of waiting for 5 years for a young ruckman to develop, they recruit a ready-made one(Byrne, Salmon, Everett, Rehn), and they've performed really well.

Edited June 17, 201213 yr by JUMPING JACK CLENNETT

My reason for contributing to this thread has been to propose the contention that perhaps the reason we get so few clearances is not entirely due to our midfielders' lack of ability. Perhaps we've assumed wrongly that they're getting good supply from Jamar.

Last Monday's footy record quotes Jamar's hit outs to advantage as 19%.The AFL average is 24%.

The 2011 figures quoted above are after Jamar's very best year(his all-Aust selection year). He's never mentioned by the experts as being one of the top ruckmen now, or in most other seasons.I could easily name 10 ruckmen at present who are indisputably better than him.

I'd love to see how Moloney et al would perform with Cox, Sandilands , Maric,or Jolly etc feeding them. I suspect they'd do better than they are now.

But we've committed ourselves for three years, and in my opinion it's going to hold back the four ruck prospects we have(Gawn,Spencer, Martin and Fitzpatrick.) I earnestly hope that my sentiments are incorrect, and we've done the right thing.

Perhaps we should do what Hawthorn have done so effectively for many years. Instead of waiting for 5 years for a young ruckman to develop, they recruit a ready-made one(Byrne, Salmon, Everett, Rehn), and they've performed really well.

Is there any definition as to what is "to advantage"?

If "to advantage" means "resulting in a clearance" then it is a combination of the ruckman's strength and ability, and the "rover's" ability, determination, nous, and skills, and another skill we sadly lack, the players around the "rover" being proactive and protecting him, clearing a path through traffic and taking out the predators.

Edited June 17, 201213 yr by monoccular

Is there any definition as to what is "to advantage"?

If "to advantage" means "resulting in a clearance" then it is a combination of the ruckman's strength and ability, and the "rover's" ability, determination, nous, and skills, and another skill we sadly lack, the players around the "rover" being proactive and protecting him, clearing a path through traffic and taking out the predators.

It's all semantics. Forget the stats. Just watch the ruck contests. Mark Jamar does not find his midfielders with his tap outs.He taps the ball down to near his left foot.

Even when the bounce favours him greatly, we rarely get an advantage from his tap. Wouldn't it stun everyone if he thumped the thing twenty metres occasionally.

I wish he'd take more marks(i.e. 2 or 3). He's very wise to handball when he does get a free or a mark, because he can't kick for nuts.His movement is glacial.

What he does have is a big heart, and he tries his guts out in the scrimmages.

Edited June 18, 201213 yr by JUMPING JACK CLENNETT

Heard him interviewed tonight on SEN. What a great bloke!What a loyal Demon!

Dammit....it's gnawing away at me that we've made a mistake with the 3 year contract though. He'd have been mad not to take it.

He admitted that he hasn't been taking enough marks lately.... I'd say ever!

Unfortunately he wasn't asked any questions about clearances, and "hit outs to advantage"

He mentioned how much faster the game is this season compared to last, and how much further he has to run.(about 10% more!

That made,me think....uh oh,..........immobile ruckmen are a thing of the past.

We really need Gawn to come on over the next 2 years. Doubt very much whether Jamar wouldh've got a 3 year contract if he had any competition for his ruck duties. Still there 's no way we could move on without him in our current predicament.

Heard him interviewed tonight on SEN. What a great bloke!What a loyal Demon!

Dammit....it's gnawing away at me that we've made a mistake with the 3 year contract though. He'd have been mad not to take it.

He admitted that he hasn't been taking enough marks lately.... I'd say ever!

Unfortunately he wasn't asked any questions about clearances, and "hit outs to advantage"

He mentioned how much faster the game is this season compared to last, and how much further he has to run.(about 10% more!

That made,me think....uh oh,..........immobile ruckmen are a thing of the past.

They're not if they can take a mark. But Jamar can't, so he might be in trouble.

Dammit....it's gnawing away at me that we've made a mistake with the 3 year contract though. .

With all due respect, JJC, if this is what you worry about - you must be a tense, anxious wreck about the state of the list and recent performances.

We have two players who have been AA.

Jamar is one of those, he is also only 29 and is a dominant tap ruckman.

He has limitations, but what ruckman on our list doesn't?

When he gets a better midfield at his feet, you will be gnawing away thinking about how he might not have been there.

I dont think half you guys know the skill required in being a midfielder and actually reading where the ball is going to drop. The reason why Jamar wins the taps is because he is reading the ball and knows how to position his body in order to win it. In this situation he can't always manoeuvre himself to tap it down where he wants. This is where an elite midfield comes into play, they need to judge where he is going to tap it and the hole they need to run to. Unfortunately our mids have not worked out where to stand, run, push off their opponent.

I dont think half you guys know the skill required in being a midfielder and actually reading where the ball is going to drop. The reason why Jamar wins the taps is because he is reading the ball and knows how to position his body in order to win it. In this situation he can't always manoeuvre himself to tap it down where he wants. This is where an elite midfield comes into play, they need to judge where he is going to tap it and the hole they need to run to. Unfortunately our mids have not worked out where to stand, run, push off their opponent.

That would be true if Jamar regularly tapped it into space, but he taps it to his feet most of the time. Even when one of our mids get their hands on the ball cleanly, they're almost immediately locked up because (as you'd expect) most of the opposition midfielders congregate at that spot.