Steph Martin & Mitch Clark...

[Fat Tony 5,220]

I would play Frawley in the middle and Martin on the gorillas next season. I understand we are losing our best defender, but I still think we will be much better off. Rationale:

• Chip could be like Kouta in the clearances. He is big, strong, fast and tough and is also a good user of the ball on the run. Size/strength and pace off the mark matter most in the clearances. Chip has all these ingredients and is also an excellent tackler. His height and leap could also be used as third man up in some instances around the ground.
  
• We need to make sure we win the midfield given the evolution of the press. It is now so hard to defend from deep in the backline in modern AFL. You can have the best forward line and best backline in the competition, but it still doesn’t matter if you lose the contested ball.
  
• We have good depth in the KPD department. Martin, Rivers and Garland have the spoiling ability to nullify most forward lines.
  
• Grimes is not overly quick and needs to play on the third/fourth tall or slowest small. If Martin, Rivers, Garland and Frawley are all in defence, Grimes’ likely opponent will be too quick.
  
• I still think Rivers is in our best 22 and he should benefit from Martin being able to take the really tall, strong forwards.
  
• I think Martin is best suited to defence. (Although he showed he could also make it as a forward this year which surprised me.)
  
• If Martin plays forward, then Watts is likely to be pushed onto the wing. IMO this would be a bit of a waste, as Watts will get stronger again next year and with better supply could become a star as a CHF. He will also benefit from Clark taking the focus off him.
  

Best 22

Rivers Martin Blease

Bail Garland Grimes

Trengove Frawley Davey

Sylvia Watts Howe

Green Clarke Jurrah

Jamar Moloney McKenzie

Jones Gysberts Petterd

Tapscott

I also don’t think Gawn and Jamar can really play in the same side unless big Max really starts to kick some bags for Casey. Both are number 1 ruckmen and need to be played there for 70% game time.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I love the optimists on demonland, but I wish some had a realists approach too.

Clark is a fantastic pickup. Quality 23 year old who can play forward and ruck and now with him and Jamar, we have a solid ruck/forward combo.

In regards to Stef Martin. All this talk of him having a breakout season. I hope people mean it was a season in which we saw some solid improvement from a an athletic basketballer who is still very much learning the game.

There is no way in hell we can rely on him to hold down a position like CHF or CHB.

He got a lot of game time because of depleted ruck stocks last year and the guy showed some improvement which

I would have thought is a given considering the amount of hours the coaching team have put into him.

Martin is no natural footballer. He still has an extremely suss kicking style, is still understanding positional movement and lacks hardness and aggression. There is no way we can stick him at CHF and expect to even hold his own against good sides.

I'm happy to persist with him and for him to continue to develop as a footballer but he is never going to set the world on fire and I'm really not pumping my own tyres up here but if you have played the game to a reasonably high standard it's pretty easy to see this.

Jamar and Clark - Ruck/forward

Martin - Backup incase one of the big fellers go down including Frawley/Riv.

Gawn and Fitz - Injury free years and developing at Casey.

* I'm not saying don't play Martin/Gawn/Fitz. Obviously if their form warrants a game we should reward them but they all still need lots and lots of development.

Even Martin.

Edited October 17, 2011 by stevethemanjordan

[Pates 9,660]

Clark at FF with jurrah and green in the pockets. Watts as a very mobile and athletic CHF with Martin at CHB. I think Martin can make CHB his own.

^^^^^^^^^

This.

It's more or less exactly what I pictured. I think what Clark offers is flexibility to move our talls around the park, but ultimately I see him as mainly our key forward. And what Finey failed to mentioned when they were going through his goal stats is that at Brisbane he was a ruckman who moved forward every now and again, so his argument based around those thoughts were completely useless.

[Diablo Deemon 220]

I can see Martin, Clark and Jamar

but adding Gawn to a starting position is a stretch for mine.

Gawn is a first ruck no ways about it

Jamar is a first ruck with some ability to go forward and help out in defense spoiling and what not

Martin is a utility he can ruck play forward (has less ability forward) and can hold down a defensive position play one on one

Clark is a ruck who is suited to a forward role so he can play forward and pinch hit in ruck

so

Jamar and Gawn roles overlap too much these 2 need to separate roles more to play in the same side

Martin can ruck and go back flexibility means little overlap

Clark can stay forward focus on this area and maybe do a little rucking if required.

3 out 4 can play in the same side.

[The Chazz 4,077]

The question of our ability to play all big guys really depends on the oppostion. For example, if we play Geelong, they geberally have;

2 Rucks - Ottens, West/Vardy

3 Forwards - Pods, Hawkins, West/Vardy

In this case, we would need something like this in our match-ups;

2 Rucks - Jamar, Gawn/Martin

3 Defenders - Frawley, Martin(?), Garland

We have seen Rivers is quite vulnerable against bigger forwards.

Gawn is still probably 12 months away from demanding a best 21 spot, while if Maratin can carry his 2011 form in to next season, he is easily in our best 21.

The thing I'm looking forward to the most out of 2012 is to watch what kind of structure Neeld will have in mind with his forward line and back line. Rivers wouldn't want to plateau and Martin continue to improve.

[rpfc 28,262]

I don't want the $700k investment in the ruck.

If you are not a dominant ruck like Sandilands it is a massive risk to have such an investment spend a few minutes a qtr letting blokes try to cut you in half.

Martin is no natural footballer. He still has an extremely suss kicking style, is still understanding positional movement and lacks hardness and aggression. There is no way we can stick him at CHF and expect to even hold his own against good sides.

I'm happy to persist with him and for him to continue to develop as a footballer but he is never going to set the world on fire and I'm really not pumping my own tyres up here but if you have played the game to a reasonably high standard it's pretty easy to see this.

As high a standard as Martin is playing?

Martin was a revelation last year as a ruckman who held his own against the best and dominated the rest. And he kicked goals from the ruck. He may not be a natural footy player but neither is Natanui and I know of another footy player who is a basketballer playing footy and he happens to be the best player in the game.

And he doesn't lack hardness or aggression.

Edited October 18, 2011 by rpfc

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I don't want the $700k investment in the ruck.

If you are not a dominant ruck like Sandilands it is a massive risk to have such an investment spend a few minutes a qtr letting blokes try to cut you in half.

What do you mean? We spent $700k on a player that is able to play both positions? It's not one or the other.

His break-out year was when he shouldered the ruck for the majority of the year when Luenberger and Charman went down with injuries.

He has also shown he can go forward and be dangerous in the air and in front of goal and I am sure we will be seeing him played a lot

inside 50 as it's what we need. But the point is, he has the ability to play both roles. That's why he is such an attractive player.

As high a standard as Martin is playing?

Martin was a revelation last year as a ruckman who held his own against the best and dominated the rest. And he kicked goals from the ruck. He may not be a natural footy player but neither is Natanui and I know of another footy player who is a basketballer playing footy and he happens to be the best player in the game.

And he doesn't lack hardness or aggression.

No not as high as Martin obviously but it's common knowledge that AFL clubs go for the risk time-to-time and draft athletic talls with not much footy experience because they come from basketball backgrounds. Martin was never great before he was drafted. He was tall, quick and could take a mark. We are banking on him being able to learn and then execute most other skills that are required to be considered even an OK AFL footballer.

Comparisons with Pendlebury are just not on RPFC. He went at at number 4 or 5 in the national draft. Ridiculous ridiculous comparison.

NicNat while not a natural footballer either played for WA and in the WAFL and again his skill set is far ahead of Martin's.

Martin went in the pre-season draft. He played footy in the Amo's before drafted and switched to footy late as a teen.

As I have said, the improvement is good. But he needs a lot more of it if he is to be a 150 + player with the club.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,188]

In regards to Stef Martin. All this talk of him having a breakout season. I hope people mean it was a season in which we saw some solid improvement from a an athletic basketballer who is still very much learning the game.

There is no way in hell we can rely on him to hold down a position like CHF or CHB.

Martin is no natural footballer. He still has an extremely suss kicking style, is still understanding positional movement and lacks hardness and aggression. There is no way we can stick him at CHF and expect to even hold his own against good sides.

I agree with your post with one exception. I think Martin probably could hold down a key defensive role to play on the guys like Kreuzer, Jolly, Ottens, Cox etc who are rucks resting forward. He played defense in his first season to some success, I agree he is not a natural footballer which is why I would prefer not to see him played forward but defensively I think he has the athletic ability to shut down an opponent. Obviously if he has a guy like Rivers or Grimes helping him out as 3rd man up ala Maxwell it will help even more. My only query with this is his disposal as more and more you need guys with very good disposal coming out of your back half so you don't turn the ball over for an easy scoring opportunity.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Dr. Gonzo

[rpfc 28,262]

Comparisons with Pendlebury are just not on RPFC. He went at at number 4 or 5 in the national draft. Ridiculous ridiculous comparison.

NicNat while not a natural footballer either played for WA and in the WAFL and again his skill set is far ahead of Martin's.

Martin went in the pre-season draft. He played footy in the Amo's before drafted and switched to footy late as a teen.

So I cannot compare Martin to Pendlebury because Pendlebury went higher in the draft? Or NikNat because he has a superior skill set?

You are attempting to say that he comes from a non-football background and that is decisive in his career as it moves forward.

It isn't because Pendlebury has adapted fine.

And from what we saw last year, Martin is quite adept at adapting...

Add in the old axiom that talls take longer and I have little doubt that Martin can hold down the back-up ruck position very well, and allow Clark to concentrate on becoming a forward target that we so desperately need and have spent so much for.

[demoniac 1,330]

Mitch Clark plays as a key forward and doing some of the ruck work in the forward line.

Mark Jamar as Nm 1 ruck.

Stefan Martin as second ruck.

If Martin is need down back to play on the likes of an Ottens/West/Cloke/Vickery/Cox/ Natanui Clark relieves Jamar in the Ruck.

Gawn develops at Casey over the next 2 years, playing the occasional game due to injury and looks to take over from Jamar as the Nm 1 Ruck in 2014.

[diesel 420]

He didn't actually say, just made the point that we now had too many big blokes.

I listened to Fine's take on it. It was shallow. Martin especially has great versatility but he will only ever be a relief ruckman and I expect he will continue to be thrown around again next year but eventually settle in defence taking the oppositions tallest and releasing Frawley.

To have used pick 12 to get a mid as Fine suggested would be a hit & miss scenario. He also failed to mention the fact that Jack Viney is in the bag for next year so there is our hard bodied inside mid. This years GF showed again how important it is to have multiple talls in September (October) and even through the year given the tendency to now rest players + injuries. Lack of bigs derailed Hawthorn. No reason why 4 of our 5 talls can't be in our best 22. If one gets itchy feet they will have great currency in a trade. As I understand it Jamar will be a free agent in a couple off years? I think he (Jamar) is most likely to go in the medium term.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,188]

So I cannot compare Martin to Pendlebury because Pendlebury went higher in the draft? Or NikNat because he has a superior skill set?

You are attempting to say that he comes from a non-football background and that is decisive in his career as it moves forward.

It isn't because Pendlebury has adapted fine.

And from what we saw last year, Martin is quite adept at adapting...

Add in the old axiom that talls take longer and I have little doubt that Martin can hold down the back-up ruck position very well, and allow Clark to concentrate on becoming a forward target that we so desperately need and have spent so much for.

Martin could get progressively better to the point where he is a real weapon. He also could plateau and may not get better than he showed in 2011. I agree with stevethemanjordan, we were all excited about Martin's 2011 because of the low expectations, not because he became a gamebreaker. That's not to say it wasn't impressive but we shouldn't get caught up in thinking that he is going to be the next dominant big man of the comp. It is for this reason I suggested a couple of months ago he be trade bait as his value is high right now and possibly as high as it will get.

[Adam The God 30,126]

I actually think Rivers is the one that will be phased out, eventually due to the acquisition of Clark. All our other talls are mobile, solid kicks of the football. Rivers is neither and is regularly shown up for pace. Perhaps he could play the Maxwell role as sweeper? But apart from that he's the one that'll get left behind.

Edited October 18, 2011 by AdamFarr

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

So I cannot compare Martin to Pendlebury because Pendlebury went higher in the draft? Or NikNat because he has a superior skill set?

Umm, not really no. I don't understand your point? You are picking on me using the word 'unnatural footballer'. Maybe I should have said, 'he was a very late starter to Australian Rules Football'. Yes there are many unnatural footballers that start late but Stef was extremely late. Pendles and Nic Nat both had played the game before Stef with Pendles being a gun young footballer so you cannot compare them. Even if both of them were 'unnatural' footballers. (The Pendles one is debatable).

You are attempting to say that he comes from a non-football background and that is decisive in his career as it moves forward.

It isn't because Pendlebury has adapted fine.

And from what we saw last year, Martin is quite adept at adapting...

Add in the old axiom that talls take longer and I have little doubt that Martin can hold down the back-up ruck position very well, and allow Clark to concentrate on becoming a forward target that we so desperately need and have spent so much for.

Starting the game at his age and from having little or no junior/senior footy experience, (he played a season or two in the Amo's for Haileybury) means he is behind the eight ball big time.

You are good at arguing semantics RPFC.

Ultimately my point is that we will never be much chop if relying on Stef Martin to play a key position role in the forward or backline at the level he is right at this moment.

That's reality.

Edited October 18, 2011 by stevethemanjordan

[The Chazz 4,077]

Umm, not really no. I don't understand your point? You are picking on me using the word 'unnatural footballer'. Maybe I should have said, 'he was a very late starter to Australian Rules Football'. Yes there are many unnatural footballers that start late but Stef was extremely late. Pendles and Nic Nat both had played the game before Stef with Pendles being a gun young footballer so you cannot compare them. Even if both of them were 'unnatural' footballers. (The Pendles one is debatable).

Starting the game at his age and from having little or no junior/senior footy experience, (he played a season or two in the Amo's for Haileybury) means he is behind the eight ball big time.

You are good at arguing semantics RPFC.

Ultimately my point is that we will never be much chop if relying on Stef Martin to play a key position role in the forward or backline at the level he is right at this moment.

That's reality.

Totally disagree.

Geelong still won premierships with Nathan Ablett, and then with Tom Hawkins holding down ket positions. At that time in each of those players careers, I'd rate Martin above them.

[Akum 2,660]

Steve, am I right in saying that you see the deficiencies in Jamar's game as being less of a problem than Martin's deficiencies?

Jamar is by no means the "ideal" all-round ruckmen, he's just one of the best in the business at stoppages. But he gives us little around the ground, and nothing forward or back. Or do you think that what he gives us at stoppages outweighs his shortcomings?

And which is more likely to improve - Martin's work at stoppages, or Jamar's work around the ground?

[rpfc 28,262]

Umm, not really no. I don't understand your point? You are picking on me using the word 'unnatural footballer'. Maybe I should have said, 'he was a very late starter to Australian Rules Football'. Yes there are many unnatural footballers that start late but Stef was extremely late. Pendles and Nic Nat both had played the game before Stef with Pendles being a gun young footballer so you cannot compare them. Even if both of them were 'unnatural' footballers. (The Pendles one is debatable).

Pendlebury I believe played the last year of underage footy and excelled, before that it was basketball.

It's different for all and I don't think that his background in basketball should be seen as a net negative - it has given him unique attributes that he has used to great effect with the elite in the AFL.

Starting the game at his age and from having little or no junior/senior footy experience, (he played a season or two in the Amo's for Haileybury) means he is behind the eight ball big time.

You are good at arguing semantics RPFC.

Ultimately my point is that we will never be much chop if relying on Stef Martin to play a key position role in the forward or backline at the level he is right at this moment.

That's reality.

How about this for arguing semantics - I never said he would be holding down a key position.

I see him as one of the best back-up rucks in the league and a FP that swaps with Jamar.

The same role he did so well in 2011.

[daisycutter 29,604]

I love the optimists on demonland, but I wish some had a realists approach too.

Clark is a fantastic pickup. Quality 23 year old who can play forward and ruck and now with him and Jamar, we have a solid ruck/forward combo.

In regards to Stef Martin. All this talk of him having a breakout season. I hope people mean it was a season in which we saw some solid improvement from a an athletic basketballer who is still very much learning the game.

There is no way in hell we can rely on him to hold down a position like CHF or CHB.

He got a lot of game time because of depleted ruck stocks last year and the guy showed some improvement which

I would have thought is a given considering the amount of hours the coaching team have put into him.

Martin is no natural footballer. He still has an extremely suss kicking style, is still understanding positional movement and lacks hardness and aggression. There is no way we can stick him at CHF and expect to even hold his own against good sides.

I'm happy to persist with him and for him to continue to develop as a footballer but he is never going to set the world on fire and I'm really not pumping my own tyres up here but if you have played the game to a reasonably high standard it's pretty easy to see this.

Jamar and Clark - Ruck/forward

Martin - Backup incase one of the big fellers go down including Frawley/Riv.

Gawn and Fitz - Injury free years and developing at Casey.

* I'm not saying don't play Martin/Gawn/Fitz. Obviously if their form warrants a game we should reward them but they all still need lots and lots of development.

Even Martin.

Agreed. Martin is nowhere near good enough to be a key position defender (or forward)

I think many posters are getting ahead of themselves

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Totally disagree.

Geelong still won premierships with Nathan Ablett, and then with Tom Hawkins holding down ket positions. At that time in each of those players careers, I'd rate Martin above them.

Geelong? If we ever develop a midfield and backline like Geelong, I am happy for Martin to be doing cartwheels in our forward line.

With the team where it is now, I am very skeptical of the idea that he should be holding down a key position.

Steve, am I right in saying that you see the deficiencies in Jamar's game as being less of a problem than Martin's deficiencies?

Jamar is by no means the "ideal" all-round ruckmen, he's just one of the best in the business at stoppages. But he gives us little around the ground, and nothing forward or back. Or do you think that what he gives us at stoppages outweighs his shortcomings?

And which is more likely to improve - Martin's work at stoppages, or Jamar's work around the ground?

Well, Jamar was drafted as a ruckman. He has turned into a fantastic tap ruckman. I disagree about other areas of his game. In my opinion he has a great understanding of position and where he should be depending on whether the ball is our hand's or the opposition's. He also has the ability to go forward and kick a goal. He kicked 5 a couple of years ago playing forward against Carlton.

Martin was drafted as a project player with potential. So he has needed to learn everything about the game from day one at the club. Jamar can still obviously improve as a Ruckman and as a Forward but Stef has much more learning to do and (hopefully) improvement left in him. The guy still needs to learn how to kick, run to position, make the right decisions, handball etc.

My reply was to people wanting him to play key position roles. Being a relief tap ruckman under Jamar is another ball game.

Edited October 18, 2011 by stevethemanjordan

[The Chazz 4,077]

Geelong? If we ever develop a midfield and backline like Geelong, I am happy for Martin to be doing cartwheels in our forward line.

With the team where it is now, I am very skeptical of the idea that he should be holding down a key position.

Well Steve, for a man who has played at a fairly high level, you are being very short-sighted. Of course Geelong has a midfield of the true "elite" status, but when their era started, how many games had all their mids played? We are atleast 2 years away from being in a comparable position. Our backline is also well on track to becomming every bit as good as Geelong's.

I shouldn't have to tell you - it should be pretty clear for someone with your playing resume, that the premiership core at Geelong were together for atleast 5 years before they "clicked". While some will say we are already 5 years in to our rebuild, I would argue that we are only 2 seasons in to it (next year being our 3rd).

[Watt and Howe? 16]

Don't really know how this would work but would somehow love to see us make a certain play (possibly when we are awared a free kick just ouside the FWD50) where Jamar can run down to the square along with Clark who is already there to have 2 twin towers impossible to be stopped!

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Pendlebury I believe played the last year of underage footy and excelled, before that it was basketball.

It's different for all and I don't think that his background in basketball should be seen as a net negative - it has given him unique attributes that he has used to great effect with the elite in the AFL.

Interested in hearing what attributes you think he has? (Not a smart-arse comment)

I think he is quick for his height, agile and his contested marking is pretty good when his confidence is up.

There are SOME positives coming from basketball, but many negative considering you don't handball, kick, tackle, play on an oval of grass.....come to think of it, it's a completely different sport....

But seriously, going back to Pendlebury. If you have the basics of AFL down. ie. kicking well, handballing, tackling combined with some attributes a basketballer would typically show, then voila' ! A Pendlebury type.

How about this for arguing semantics - I never said he would be holding down a key position.

I see him as one of the best back-up rucks in the league and a FP that swaps with Jamar.

The same role he did so well in 2011.

Well then I guess we agree? (Except for the best back-up rucks in the league part)

Edited October 18, 2011 by stevethemanjordan

[rpfc 28,262]

Well then I guess we agree? (Except for the best back-up rucks in the league part)

Considering I am judging him on 2011 I would like you to name the back up rucks in the AFL that are a class above.

We are very fortunate to have Martin as a 2nd ruck. He is very good.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Well Steve, for a man who has played at a fairly high level, you are being very short-sighted. Of course Geelong has a midfield of the true "elite" status, but when their era started, how many games had all their mids played? We are atleast 2 years away from being in a comparable position. Our backline is also well on track to becomming every bit as good as Geelong's.

I shouldn't have to tell you - it should be pretty clear for someone with your playing resume, that the premiership core at Geelong were together for atleast 5 years before they "clicked". While some will say we are already 5 years in to our rebuild, I would argue that we are only 2 seasons in to it (next year being our 3rd).

Billy,

You really have baffled me here....

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Considering I am judging him on 2011 I would like you to name the back up rucks in the AFL that are a class above.

We are very fortunate to have Martin as a 2nd ruck. He is very good.

No I wouldn't like to do that. Too time consuming.

It's a matter of opinion RPFC. I think he played some good games and showed improvent this year. Would be interesting to see who the opposition were and what the score was when he had those good games. Freo, Adelaide Gold Coast, Richmond. Beat them all convincingly.

Second best backup ruckman all year? For one, I would have had Nic Nat if I had a choice.

He is very good? Again. Matter of opinion.

He is improving.

Edited October 18, 2011 by stevethemanjordan