The No T$ No B$ Thread

[H_T 3,049]

Hope it doesn't affect the rumoured sponsorship.

Might be a face saving exercise to allow someone to seek alternative employment not due to a termination.

So I take it the Red & Blue Print journey might finish somewhere between Base Camp & In the game if this is true ?

[old dee 23,871]

So I take it the Red & Blue Print journey might finish somewhere between Base Camp & In the game if this is true ?

Works for me

[Redleg 41,427]

Le Beau Cheval friday at Bathurst 1.55 PM.

Might now be Saturday Newcastle at 3.02 PM.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Redleg

[Redleg 41,427]

Eddie is now bleating about another big name player going to GWS. We can eliminate Pies players so it will be interesting to see what eventuates. Hear from Carlton supporters that Jordan Russell is off to GWS and that is why they are not playing him.

[old dee 23,871]

Eddie is now bleating about another big name player going to GWS. We can eliminate Pies players so it will be interesting to see what eventuates. Hear from Carlton supporters that Jordan Russell is off to GWS and that is why they are not playing him.

You know what Redleg I agree with him.

I wish GWS would just [censored] off.

Thank god for Eddie as we are so beholding to the AFl we cannot say a word of complaint.

I am glad someone can

[Redleg 41,427]

Le Beau Cheval friday at Bathurst 1.55 PM.

Might now be Saturday Newcastle at 3.02 PM.

Scratched friday running saturday.

[Slartibartfast 17,624]

Eddie is now bleating about another big name player going to GWS. We can eliminate Pies players so it will be interesting to see what eventuates. Hear from Carlton supporters that Jordan Russell is off to GWS and that is why they are not playing him.

How's the diet going. I have to wait until the end of our season. I'm not looking forward to Monday week.

I've skipped a lot of the "woe is me" posting but I'm afraid you're in for more pain. Until our midfield becomes mature and competitive I think we are in for more of the same next year.

We desperately need to find a mature good midfielder but I can't see one. Grimes might be the answer if he can stay fit.

That is my main hope.

[Redleg 41,427]

How's the diet going. I have to wait until the end of our season. I'm not looking forward to Monday week.

I've skipped a lot of the "woe is me" posting but I'm afraid you're in for more pain. Until our midfield becomes mature and competitive I think we are in for more of the same next year.

We desperately need to find a mature good midfielder but I can't see one. Grimes might be the answer if he can stay fit.

That is my main hope.

First the diet. No good, I have as much application as our forwards do with the forward press. Doesn't help that WJ and Mrs. WJ keep asking Mrs. Redleg out for dinner which means I get dragged along kicking and screaming. I am going to have to apply myself and show some guts and determination. By the way WJ has become a grandfather again with his 5th, Alexis Poppy. Mother and father (Demonland Andy) all thrilled with new Demon.

Interesting you pin hope on Grimes and some poster on Demonology suggests trading him. Can't believe it. Would have thought he is one of our brightest hopes.

As for the midfield I would have thought we have a couple of big bodied boys in Beamer and Jones and that a few others could put on some more muscle. Not sure JT is a midfielder but he is not small. Wonder if Tapscott could play some mid field.

Yes it may be another hard year but we seemed to be improving last year and then slipped back this year. Maybe next year can see some dramatic improvement.

We will also find out the answer to "is he going or staying" soon.

[Slartibartfast 17,624]

First the diet. No good, I have as much application as our forwards do with the forward press. Doesn't help that WJ and Mrs. WJ keep asking Mrs. Redleg out for dinner which means I get dragged along kicking and screaming. I am going to have to apply myself and show some guts and determination. By the way WJ has become a grandfather again with his 5th, Alexis Poppy . Mother and father ( Demonland Andy ) all thrilled with new Demon.

Interesting you pin hope on Grimes and some poster on Demonology suggests trading him. Can't believe it. Would have thought he is one of our brightest hopes.

As for the midfield I would have thought we have a couple of big bodied boys in Beamer and Jones and that a few others could put on some more muscle. Not sure JT is a midfielder but he is not small. Wonder if Tapscott could play some mid field.

Yes it may be another hard year but we seemed to be improving last year and then slipped back this year. Maybe next year can see some dramatic improvement.

We will also find out the answer to "is he going or staying" soon.

Moloney and Jones are 182 and 180 respectively. Bartel 187, Corey 191, Ling 189 paved the way for Selwood and Ablett. Pendlebury 191 and Judd 189 are about the best in the business. And Jones and Moloney are "good ordinary footballers" and at their height they can't impact against bigger bodies. Neither is quick. And Jones doesn't play midfield really, he plays wing (and yes, there is a difference).

We need blokes that "take space" and are strong enough to hold position and block for the likes of S.... sorry. Our blokes aren't. I think McNamara 190 has been successful at Casey because he can do just this and we'll see if he can do it Sunday.

Grimes 187, Gysberts 190 and McKenzie 186 are our hopes here but are all are injury prone and are young and inexperienced.

This year our midfield have been smashed because we lack size and strength and are very inexperienced. Our success is linked to our midfield. I think if you stuck a decent engine in between our forward and back line and we'd be knocking on the door of the top 5 because a decent midfield would make the forward and back lines so much better. I just don't see why people don't realize that its as simple as the midfield.

And unless we "get" something from somewhere for next year we will see gradual improvement not the quantum leap many expect. Just look at the difference Cox, Kerr, Embley and Shoey have made to WC this year.

As someone once said "It's the midfield, stupid".

[timD 994]

First the diet. No good, I have as much application as our forwards do with the forward press. Doesn't help that WJ and Mrs. WJ keep asking Mrs. Redleg out for dinner which means I get dragged along kicking and screaming. I am going to have to apply myself and show some guts and determination. By the way WJ has become a grandfather again with his 5th, Alexis Poppy . Mother and father ( Demonland Andy ) all thrilled with new Demon.

Interesting you pin hope on Grimes and some poster on Demonology suggests trading him. Can't believe it. Would have thought he is one of our brightest hopes.

As for the midfield I would have thought we have a couple of big bodied boys in Beamer and Jones and that a few others could put on some more muscle. Not sure JT is a midfielder but he is not small. Wonder if Tapscott could play some mid field.

Yes it may be another hard year but we seemed to be improving last year and then slipped back this year. Maybe next year can see some dramatic improvement.

We will also find out the answer to "is he going or staying" soon.

What has led to you thinking that JT is not a midfielder? Not criticising, just interested.

[Redleg 41,427]

What has led to you thinking that JT is not a midfielder? Not criticising, just interested.

He seems a bit slow for a mid. Certainly can take a mark, can play forward, but doesn't seem a true mid.

[old dee 23,871]

Redleg 4th at Geelong today.

Did my dough, what happened ?

Looking for a better result tomorrow!

[Whispering_Jack 30,640]

First the diet. No good, I have as much application as our forwards do with the forward press. Doesn't help that WJ and Mrs. WJ keep asking Mrs. Redleg out for dinner which means I get dragged along kicking and screaming. I am going to have to apply myself and show some guts and determination.

Extraordinary. The only thing that's remotely accurate about the above is the part about showing some guts. Those formidable guts of yours form a substantial roof over the toolshed that is truly a sight to behold.

Thanks for the nice words about Alexis Poppy though.

[Redleg 41,427]

Redleg 4th at Geelong today.

Did my dough, what happened ?

Looking for a better result tomorrow!

Needs more ground, he is being trained to stay. Hopefully Le Beau Cheval does better saturday.

[old dee 23,871]

Needs more ground, he is being trained to stay. Hopefully Le Beau Cheval does better saturday.

It was only $10 doubt I will have to sell the house.

[Redleg 41,427]

It was only $10 doubt I will have to sell the house.

Glad to hear that. I was still disappointed though I know he is not a sprinter and not all horses handle the synthetic track. Hopefully toady will be better.

On another note, I actually have disliked this season far worse than 2008 and 2009. Those seasons had a purpose, this one to me was a train wreck. Can't wait for it to end.

[Deeoldfart 8,061]

...................... On another note, I actually have disliked this season far worse than 2008 and 2009. Those seasons had a purpose, this one to me was a train wreck. Can't wait for it to end.

Couldn't agree more Redleg! I'm now really looking forward to the off-season, and those critical decisions which will probably determine whether our so-called 'window' opens any time soon. It's the first time I have ever longed for the season to end, and there have been some bloody dismal years in my 60+ years following our Club.

I was chatting along these lines to my 35 year old son the other day (a more devoted Dee would be hard to find), and he reminded me that I had at least experienced the euphoria of winning some Flags, albeit a very long tome ago. It made me stop and think. Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones!

[Redleg 41,427]

Couldn't agree more Redleg! I'm now really looking forward to the off-season, and those critical decisions which will probably determine whether our so-called 'window' opens any time soon. It's the first time I have ever longed for the season to end, and there have been some bloody dismal years in my 60+ years following our Club.

I was chatting along these lines to my 35 year old son the other day (a more devoted Dee would be hard to find), and he reminded me that I had at least experienced the euphoria of winning some Flags, albeit a very long tome ago. It made me stop and think. Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones!

I was really hoping that Fitzy would get a game sunday just to see how he went and to give him a feel for it. I have always thought that a player who has had a senior game is more enthusiastic and confident the following pre season. After a senior game they have a sense of belonging and also belief that they can go on with it. Hopefully he gets a chance next week and maybe another along with him. Hope Tom McDonald has a good game.

[Slartibartfast 17,624]

On another note, I actually have disliked this season far worse than 2008 and 2009. Those seasons had a purpose, this one to me was a train wreck. Can't wait for it to end.

Your problem is you haven't managed your expectations. Everyone is very happy to buy into a "rebuilding" process but nobody realises how long 4 to 5+ years is, and that is how long this one will take (oh, and I'm not saying I understood either).

And we started from as low a base as anyone. Carlton took from end of 2003 to now to go from hopeless to good. In the 2003 draft they took Walker at pick 2 and along the way they've picked up a once in a decade footballer.

I have a very simple barometer. It says games and ages will tell you where you should finish on the ladder adjusted for skill. We are in the bottom 3 for games and ages but we will finish well out of the bottom 3 which indicates skill. (and yes, I know other things will impact, this is a blunt tool). So by my reckoning we've had a good season with some dreadful characteristics none worse that the thrashings we've had. They are what have killed the season for me. I'd have been happy with 8 to 10 wins but the size of the thrashings and the inept conduct of the Board over the last month have turned a good development year into a trial.

And unless we pick up some mature midfielders next year will be a steady progression, not a quantum leap.

Prepare yourself!!

[Redleg 41,427]

Interesting to look at the players featured on the Demonland banner. Three are not playing, three are in poor form and only Chip is going well. Maybe that goes part of the way to explaining our current situation.

[Guest Gareth Keenan]

Your problem is you haven't managed your expectations. Everyone is very happy to buy into a "rebuilding" process but nobody realises how long 4 to 5+ years is, and that is how long this one will take (oh, and I'm not saying I understood either).

And we started from as low a base as anyone. Carlton took from end of 2003 to now to go from hopeless to good. In the 2003 draft they took Walker at pick 2 and along the way they've picked up a once in a decade footballer.

I have a very simple barometer. It says games and ages will tell you where you should finish on the ladder adjusted for skill. We are in the bottom 3 for games and ages but we will finish well out of the bottom 3 which indicates skill. (and yes, I know other things will impact, this is a blunt tool). So by my reckoning we've had a good season with some dreadful characteristics none worse that the thrashings we've had. They are what have killed the season for me. I'd have been happy with 8 to 10 wins but the size of the thrashings and the inept conduct of the Board over the last month have turned a good development year into a trial.

And unless we pick up some mature midfielders next year will be a steady progression, not a quantum leap.

Prepare yourself!!

Exactly right.

Some of the preseason 2011 threads were quite bemusing, the ridiculous predictions of success and vitriol aimed at posters that suggested otherwise.

A lot of supporters needed a reality check, but they haven't taken it kindly.

[Guest Gareth Keenan]

Interesting to look at the players featured on the Demonland banner. Three are not playing, three are in poor form and only Chip is going well. Maybe that goes part of the way to explaining our current situation.

Plus Chip missing a large chunk of preseason with the pec surgery, and then going into the season without a decent fitness base.

Testament to his ability.

[Redleg 41,427]

Your problem is you haven't managed your expectations. Everyone is very happy to buy into a "rebuilding" process but nobody realises how long 4 to 5+ years is, and that is how long this one will take (oh, and I'm not saying I understood either).

And we started from as low a base as anyone. Carlton took from end of 2003 to now to go from hopeless to good. In the 2003 draft they took Walker at pick 2 and along the way they've picked up a once in a decade footballer.

I have a very simple barometer. It says games and ages will tell you where you should finish on the ladder adjusted for skill. We are in the bottom 3 for games and ages but we will finish well out of the bottom 3 which indicates skill. (and yes, I know other things will impact, this is a blunt tool). So by my reckoning we've had a good season with some dreadful characteristics none worse that the thrashings we've had. They are what have killed the season for me. I'd have been happy with 8 to 10 wins but the size of the thrashings and the inept conduct of the Board over the last month have turned a good development year into a trial.

And unless we pick up some mature midfielders next year will be a steady progression, not a quantum leap.

Prepare yourself!!

I think I have managed my expectations, they have just proved to be wrong. I thought we would be more competitive when losing, wrong. I thought we would develop a modern gameplan, wrong. I thought more individual players would improve than have improved, for example Gysberts, Grimes, Scully, Petterd, Dunn, Jurrah, Aussie, Bennell, etc, wrong. I know Watts and Martin have been improvers but they are in general in the minority. I also know Grimes was injured but he wasn't playing that well before he got injured, especially in regards to his disposal. I thought Cook would do better at Casey than he has and yes I know he is skinny and young but I wasn't expecting Carey, wrong. I thought we would go into a game against the Suns on the G as absolute certainties, wrong. I thought things were going well off the field and that everyone was focussed and pulling together, wrong. I thought we would finish just inside or outside the eight, wrong. I thought a couple of weeks ago that we would finish with 10.5 wins, wrong. Heaven forbid it could be 7.5 wins and that wouldn't shock me. I didn't think I would ever go to Skilled stadium again and I did and I sat through every second of the game and aslo half the Casey game and I won't ever go back, wrong. I thought we would end the season with me feeling optimistic and I don't at the moment, wrong. I never thought that I would be watching the season be hindered by the possible loss of our priority draft pick, who we suffered so much to get and then end up not caring either way as a cracked patella surfaced, wrong. I never thought that the whole football community would condemn our leadership group and rightly so, wrong. I will stop there as I could go on a lot longer.

I understand that one needs to be realistic with an assessment of where we are at but I look at Carlton and note they were last in 2007 yet this will be their third finals in a row, West Coast were last in 2010 and look at them and Essendon who are not great and have a stack of injuries will play finals. Yes you can say that at West Coast the leaders stood up but it is more than that, they play as a disciplined team to a game plan. I understand the need for patience and you know Fan that I have been patient, but after 47 years it is wearing thin. Still as they say in the classics, there is always next year and the next.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Redleg

[Slartibartfast 17,624]

Interesting to look at the players featured on the Demonland banner. Three are not playing, three are in poor form and only Chip is going well. Maybe that goes part of the way to explaining our current situation.

Well we are going over well worn ground but the issue is our good mature players aren't that good. Green, Moloney, Sylvia and Davey who should be providing a bit of grunt, particularly through the midfield are just ordinary footballers.

Green has wrung the most anybody could have reasonably expected out of his ability. That he is now being vilified by supporters is depressing and shows how little they understand.

Davey has never been someone who could lead when things got tough. Moloney is another "Green", but he's younger and given a tag free opportunity can play well. But for all his possessions he rarely hurts the opposition which is why he's a good ordinary footballer and not an top notch A grader. And Sylvia is just too inconsistent to be a top liner but his best is probably our best. Jamar has been injured since Adelaide (he doesn't seem to be able to jump at the moment) and for me Rivers has been our best mature player. People don't give credit to our defense. It goes in there quickly and regularly and it's not surprising that at times it just breaks open.

[Redleg 41,427]

Well we are going over well worn ground but the issue is our good mature players aren't that good. Green, Moloney, Sylvia and Davey who should be providing a bit of grunt, particularly through the midfield are just ordinary footballers.

Green has wrung the most anybody could have reasonably expected out of his ability. That he is now being vilified by supporters is depressing and shows how little they understand.

Davey has never been someone who could lead when things got tough. Moloney is another "Green", but he's younger and given a tag free opportunity can play well. But for all his possessions he rarely hurts the opposition which is why he's a good ordinary footballer and not an top notch A grader. And Sylvia is just too inconsistent to be a top liner but his best is probably our best. Jamar has been injured since Adelaide (he doesn't seem to be able to jump at the moment) and for me Rivers has been our best mature player. People don't give credit to our defense. It goes in there quickly and regularly and it's not surprising that at times it just breaks open.

Agree our defence is our bright spot. As you say we need a hard bodied mid or two to turn things around. Oh how I wish we had been harder on Ferguson and virtually forced his move to the Hawks. Then we would be far better off with Sewell in our mid field instead of the 1 extra nothing year we got from Ryan.

On another note and this will bring howls I am sure. I would consider trading Jamar home to Port for Butcher and even another lesser player like Maric, Bate to get the deal done. That would give us the big players we need up forward with Cook, McDonald and Fitzy to come. Rationale is Jamar is getting towards 30 and we have Martin, Gawn, Spencer, Fitzpatrick, the shorter McDonald who has rucked and Campbell rookied. The younger ones need developing and we are not a flag contender for at least a couple of years. The first 4 are genuine rucks and not all can play there or in the same team. It is an area that hopefully we will be ok in. Also Jamar often seems to be injured and has a foot problem, that won't go away. A forward line of Watts and maybe no one else as a tall forward is not a winning combination. Butcher, Watts, Jurrah and one of the rucks resting forward with Howe, Petterd, Sylvia etc is a good forward line. That would leave only the mid field for improvement. OK everyone start screaming.