We need a full-forward to kick 8

[Striker475 696]

Boy you've got guts. I can't see that being a very popular sentiment round these here parts. I personally wouldn't be totally against it, but it would depend on a number of factors.

- Absolutely angelic behaviour across the board starting last week - with no compromise at all

- Good form through the rest of this season, with no injury worries - with no compromise at all

- Playing as a team player. No more hogging of the ball or remonstrating at teammates for not passing to him - with no compromise at all

- A decent price. He has lost his sheen and therefore is no longer worth top dollar. This would be dictated by how he meets above criteria.

- I would expect he would have to sign a clause relating to any bad behaviour that absolves us of all responsibility in our contract with him.

- Finally the club would really need to decide if they were willing to go down such an uncertain path.

History has shown it would be a risky proposition, but if the criteria were to be wide-ranging enough and cover all bases, and he met it all perfectly, then it might just be worth doing. I live in Sydney, and no-one I know thought Barry Hall would really change, however history would tell us that it wasn't such a bad choice. He has completely sorted himself out, and I suspect, redeemed some of the respect of his peers and the wider community whilst occupying a pretty important position at the Doggies until now.

It wouldn't be worth it. Not many power-forward trades actually pay off - the only one I can think of is Barry Hall to Sydney. As compared to Bradshaw to Sydney, Fev to Brisbane, Carey to Adelaide, Modra to Freo and Barry Hall to the Dogs as the recent examples I can think of (and any before that are before my time). Denies games to a Howe/Cook as well.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Striker475

[Kento80 83]

It wouldn't be worth it. Not many power-forward trades actually pay off - the only one I can think of is Barry Hall to Sydney. As compared to Bradshaw to Sydney, Fev to Brisbane, Carey to Adelaide, Modra to Freo and Barry Hall to the Dogs as the recent examples I can think of (and any before that are before my time). Denies games to a Howe/Cook as well.

Agreed, hence my use of italics and bold to show that I would only approve in exceptional circumstances. The only thing I thought is that Fev probably hasn't had as much body stress as say Bradshaw, meaning it may be possible to get longer out of him, and that is also why I stated the criteria should be very stringent with little wiggle room. Your last sentence is very true though, and I must admit I didn't think of that at the time of posting.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Kento80

[Striker475 696]

Agreed, hence my use of italics and bold to show that I would only approve in exceptional circumstances. The only thing I thought is that Fev probably hasn't had as much body stress as say Bradshaw, meaning it may be possible to get longer out of him, and that is also why I stated the criteria should be very stringent with little wiggle room.

Missed a chunk of last year with injury, his form is inconsistent at best and his best was 4 years ago. And honestly, if you're going to be playing him you are denying a game to a kid, a kid who I would rather have come through our system. It's probably been handy for Cook and Howe to have him at Casey to learn off, but I wouldn't want any more influence out of him.

Only way I'd take him is a rookie slot.

[tonatopia 278]

We need a FF to kick 8?

When was the last time you watched a game of AFL?

It's not played that way anymore.

Fevola?

Are you serious?

This thread is so misguided on so many levels.

Sorry mate, your probably too young to remember the eighties and nineties,

Capper

Modra

Dunstall

Lockett

Ablett

Jakovich

Lyon

Schwarz

Big goalkickers straighten up a team, and create greater excitement for supports.

ps, we could have grabbed Darling.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Sorry mate, your probably too young to remember the eighties and nineties,

Capper

Modra

Dunstall

Lockett

Ablett

Jakovich

Lyon

Schwarz

Big goalkickers straighten up a team, and create greater excitement for supports.

ps, we could have grabbed Darling.

its 2011

[Guest Artie Bucco]

Sorry mate, your probably too young to remember the eighties and nineties,

Capper

Modra

Dunstall

Lockett

Ablett

Jakovich

Lyon

Schwarz

Big goalkickers straighten up a team, and create greater excitement for supports.

ps, we could have grabbed Darling.

Not at all, I watched all of those guys play.

I'm also sharp enough to realise the game has evolved and it's not played that way anymore.

You're living in a bygone era in your mind.

The only time that ever happens these days is when a team gets massacred by 10+ goals, or a team is unhealthily reliant on one player to kick the goals.

The focus now is on creating the opportunities, no matter who is on the end of it.

To be a real contender, you need to have a lot of goals kicked from the midfield, not a dominant FF or CHF.

Farmer straightened up the team, did he?

The very notion of "straightening up" a team is a prehistoric concept.

When is the last time Darling kicked 8?

Delusional rubbish.

[Craig Drinker 179]

We need a full forward who can kick EIGHT.

Who will it be?

Jurrah

Howe

Green

I remember watching the good-ol-boys

For a full forward to kick eight they would likely have to play forward of the centre therin lies the problem.

[Demon Stalwart 255]

We need a full forward who can kick EIGHT.

Who will it be?

Jurrah

Howe

Green

I remember watching the good-ol-boys

We just need a full forward period! Someone who can kick 5 or 6 goals a match regularly

That would certainly lift the team . Unfortunately I dont have the answer to that nor does the MFC at the moment

[The Chazz 4,077]

Not at all, I watched all of those guys play.

I'm also sharp enough to realise the game has evolved and it's not played that way anymore.

You're living in a bygone era in your mind.

The only time that ever happens these days is when a team gets massacred by 10+ goals, or a team is unhealthily reliant on one player to kick the goals.

The focus now is on creating the opportunities, no matter who is on the end of it.

To be a real contender, you need to have a lot of goals kicked from the midfield, not a dominant FF or CHF.

Farmer straightened up the team, did he?

The very notion of "straightening up" a team is a prehistoric concept.

When is the last time Darling kicked 8?

Delusional rubbish.

Totally correct. I posted at the start of last year I think it was that for us to improve, our midfield need to kick more goals.

However, name the last premiership side that didn't have a bigger key forward. You need them, they don't need to be influential (ie kicking bulk goals week after week), but it's almost impossible to win a flag without one. That hasn't changed for decades, regardless of what era you live in!

[Guest Artie Bucco]

Geelong?

Hawkins / Mooney / Nathan Ablett were never dominant KPFs.

A strong tall marking target, to create a contest and at least bring the ball to ground, is important, a la Travis Cloke, but a dominant KPF is definitely not.

Neither Green, Howe nor Jurrah will ever be that player.

Lucas Cook will.

How often do KPFs stand up with a dominant performance in a GF? Not often.

Hardly ever even a decent performance.

Think Riewoldt in the Saints GFs, Franklin in 08, Hall in Sydney's GFs.

Even think back to Carey playing for the Roos.

Premiership teams have solid KPDs who get good support, and manage to at least break even.

Money placed on KPFs for the Norm Smith is usually wasted.

[DeeSpencer 25,498]

Jurrah, Green, Petterd, Dunn, Newton even - any of these guys should be able to kick a bag on their day. But it's not our problem.

Our problem is having a big bodied CHF capable of taking a mark of at least forcing a contest.

We have 2 potential players on our list: Cook and Watts.

In the mean time we need someone a bit undersized like Howe or Bate or Dunn or Petterd to take some heat at CHF and use pure work rate to get some ball and help our forward movement.

Watts is improving his game in other roles but should get a chance tonight at CHF, possibly with Howe next to him they might just be able to work something out. I won't be holding my breath but if they lead hard and attack the ball they'll give themselves a chance. Of course it's all reliant on winning the ball in the midfield/quick ball movement from the back half.

[tonatopia 278]

Totally correct. I posted at the start of last year I think it was that for us to improve, our midfield need to kick more goals.

However, name the last premiership side that didn't have a bigger key forward. You need them, they don't need to be influential (ie kicking bulk goals week after week), but it's almost impossible to win a flag without one. That hasn't changed for decades, regardless of what era you live in!

Buddy Franklin 100+ goals 2008 - Premiership.

People try to reinvent footy.

It is pretty simple

1. Get the Ball

2. Pass it to someone that can kick it long to a leading option.

3. Have crumbers ready to pick up the spoils.

4. Win possesion and kick it long to a leading option.

A good full-forward who can kick 100 goals will win big games.

Good Full-forwards are worth their weight in gold. Maybe more.

[loges 6,767]

Jurrah at full forward how's that going? He may well kick 8 one day but it won't be at full forward

[Range Rover 1,935]

Sorry mate, your probably too young to remember the eighties and nineties,

Capper

Modra

Dunstall

Lockett

Ablett

Jakovich

Lyon

Schwarz

Big goalkickers straighten up a team, and create greater excitement for supports.

ps, we could have grabbed Darling.

... and only one of them played in a premiership winning side.

[DeeSpencer 25,498]

Buddy Franklin 100+ goals 2008 - Premiership.

People try to reinvent footy.

It is pretty simple

1. Get the Ball

2. Pass it to someone that can kick it long to a leading option.

3. Have crumbers ready to pick up the spoils.

4. Win possesion and kick it long to a leading option.

A good full-forward who can kick 100 goals will win big games.

Good Full-forwards are worth their weight in gold. Maybe more.

Riewoldt last year would have kicked 100 if he started the season in the form he was in by mid year. Yet the Tigers didn't beat a good side all year. Same with Barry Hall at the dogs, kicked plenty of goals, but he was at FF and they didn't have a proper CHF nor were they playing a modern brand.

The hawks won that flag due to an innovative defensive game plan and a gun midfield (Hodge, Sewell, Mitchell, Crawford, Bateman). Buddy hardly dominated in the grand final. It was Dew who did the damage and little things like Rioli's defensive pressure was instrumental in the win.

The saints nearly won 2 flags with Kosi at FF, largely due to Riewoldt. Even though he was well held/beaten in both grand finals (Not talking about the replay) his work to contest set them up.

[Rogue 585]

Good delivery will allow most of the forwards we have on the list to kick bags.

I did like the call about needing to be forward of centre, though. Zing!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Yet Kyle Reimers is quite a divisive figure. If he played for us and did that, you'd think he'd have to play six shockers in a row before they contemplated dropping him. Us I'm not so sure, medium level players tend to coast a bit easier in our current makeup....

Yes MFC need to recruit divisive elements. Given we have so many medium level players that coast. Why do we need another one? And as Rogue pointed out he kicked 8 during a party game.

Fevola?

No thanks on Fevola. Who does Collingwood and Geelong have that a kicking eight? I'd rather have a midfield that can get a side to the position that they would kick more than 8.

Wow.

I would have thought if you stuck a power forward, who could actually kick straight, in the Cats team of last 4 years.... they would be unbelievably scary. May have picked up 2008. Mooney's a good leader but close your eyes when he takes a shot and was never a true power forward as such.

Hawks won 2008 with the help of their twin towers, which we can never get close to. Smack us every time.

Saints probably would have won the drawn game last year and may have even beaten the cats had they had a true power FF (or CHF) kicking straight on the day. Doubt he would have made the mistake Reiwoldt made when his kick running into goal was smothered. Maybe.

Power forward alone dont win you flag. They are a nice to have not a critical element.

Geelong won 2 flags and got pipped on the big day in 2008 without one. You dont do the Hawks justice if you put it down to just Buddy and Roughhead. It wasn't. And FWIW, Franklin is a freak of a footballer who is not your traditional power forward.

I wouldn't say you don't need one. It's just when teams don't have a balance of A graders and a mix of very good players across the rest of the lines, then they tend to rely too much on that one player up forward and look for him too often. Like the Carlton/Fev situation is what i'm alluding to i guess.

Give my eye teeth to have a Jakovich (without the loose screw lol) in our team atm. Hopefully Howe starts to shine....fingers crossed. Patience needed lol.

In the modern game reliance on just one key forward is potentially good in the short term if the player is very good but the long term its a disaster but opposition teams would cut you forward plan down quickly. Being one player centric in the Forward line is not a recipe for longevity of success. And FWIW, if you have Jako in your forward line then it sucks the oxygen for everyone else. Loved him at his peak 20 years ago but I am not sure I would want him right now.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Buddy Franklin 100+ goals 2008 - Premiership.

People try to reinvent footy.

It is pretty simple

1. Get the Ball

2. Pass it to someone that can kick it long to a leading option.

3. Have crumbers ready to pick up the spoils.

4. Win possesion and kick it long to a leading option.

A good full-forward who can kick 100 goals will win big games.

Good Full-forwards are worth their weight in gold. Maybe more.

Franklin is an exceptional AFL footballer who is a freak and he had a one out year in a very good side. Never let the exception be the rule.

People try and reinvent football to be simple to suit their purposes when the game is alot more complicated.

The issue is that its not just about full forwards. The game has changed where players no longer play unique typecast role. Franklin is a case in mind.

Teams need good forwards (at least 3 to 4) that provide reliable and dangerous scoring options.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Geelong?

Hawkins / Mooney / Nathan Ablett were never dominant KPFs.

A strong tall marking target, to create a contest and at least bring the ball to ground, is important, a la Travis Cloke, but a dominant KPF is definitely not.

Neither Green, Howe nor Jurrah will ever be that player.

Lucas Cook will.

How often do KPFs stand up with a dominant performance in a GF? Not often.

Hardly ever even a decent performance.

Think Riewoldt in the Saints GFs, Franklin in 08, Hall in Sydney's GFs.

Even think back to Carey playing for the Roos.

Premiership teams have solid KPDs who get good support, and manage to at least break even.

Money placed on KPFs for the Norm Smith is usually wasted.

Is this in reply to my post Artie? If so, read what I wrote;

Totally correct. I posted at the start of last year I think it was that for us to improve, our midfield need to kick more goals.

However, name the last premiership side that didn't have a bigger key forward. You need them, they don't need to be influential (ie kicking bulk goals week after week), but it's almost impossible to win a flag without one. That hasn't changed for decades, regardless of what era you live in!

What key position forwards do in finals footy is provide a secure structure. Is it coincidence that at Geelong, they don't really have a dominant KPF, but their mids kick most of their goals? A KPF gives their mids a target, they kick it to them but get down there to crumb becuase they know that the KPF most likely wont mark it.

It took the Western Bulldogs years to realise that they would not win a flag with Brad Johnson as their main forward, hence they went and got Hall. He did a job, but I think it was 2 seasons too late for them.

I'd almost go so far to say you need 2 bigger bodies at FF/CHF in finals. Again, I'm not saying dominant, but players that can bring the ball to ground for the crumbers/mids to turn in to scoring opportunities;

2010 - Collingwood (Dawes, Cloke)

2009 - Geelong (Hawkins, Mooney)

2008 - Hawthorn (Righead, Franklin)

2007 - Geelong (Mooney, Ablett)

2006 - West Coast (Lynch, Embley/Hanson)

2005 - Sydney (Hall)

2004 - Port (Tredrea, Lade)

2003 - Brisbane (Lynch, Brown)

2002 - Brisbane (Lynch, Brown)

2001 - Brisbane (Lynch, Brown)

2000 - Essendon (Lloyd, Lucas)

Want me to keep going on?

Anyone that says you don't need bigger bodied KPF is kidding themselves, even in todays game. Again, they don't need to be dominant, just need to play their part and allow midfielders to kick goals. It's this view that continually is calling for me to see Stef Martin at Full Forward, especially when Jamar comes back.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

It was in reply to your post, but I obviously didn't read it closely enough, or I was still holding onto the sentiment of the OP.

I was essentially using your post as a starting point.

As for your post circuit above, yeah, of course a couple of KPF targets are important for winning a GF.

The same can be said for ball-winning mids, a ruckman or a FB.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Artie Bucco

[Guest Artie Bucco]

NB. Hawkins & Mooney / Mooney & N. Ablett / Lynch & Hansen are a very very poor couple of KPF targets.

(and Embley ain't a tall forward)

Edited June 3, 2011 by Artie Bucco

[sylvinator 96]

Plenty of premierships won without tall dominant key forward- Wet Toast and Geelong the most prominant in recent memories.

If we want our forwards to kick bags of goals we need to start getting into the forward line more than 30 times a game ffs. Premiership midfields give their forward an easy ride- the same cannot be said in the melbourne forward line.

And btw... Watts and Cook will be a better combination with Hawkins and Mooney ever were. Add to that Howe, Jurrah, Petterd and Green as medium forwards, and we have plenty of forward options come our shot at the premiership.

It is really up to our midfield to develop into a star-studded midfield. If they do, we'll have a shot at a flag.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Plenty of premierships won without tall dominant key forward- Wet Toast and Geelong the most prominant in recent memories.

If we want our forwards to kick bags of goals we need to start getting into the forward line more than 30 times a game ffs. Premiership midfields give their forward an easy ride- the same cannot be said in the melbourne forward line.

And btw... Watts and Cook will be a better combination with Hawkins and Mooney ever were. Add to that Howe, Jurrah, Petterd and Green as medium forwards, and we have plenty of forward options come our shot at the premiership.

It is really up to our midfield to develop into a star-studded midfield. If they do, we'll have a shot at a flag.

Totally agree Sylv, but imagine our forward line without Watts and Cook/Jurrah.

Teams with only medium size forwards do not win premierships.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Yes MFC need to recruit divisive elements. Given we have so many medium level players that coast. Why do we need another one? And as Rogue pointed out he kicked 8 during a party game.

No thanks on Fevola. Who does Collingwood and Geelong have that a kicking eight? I'd rather have a midfield that can get a side to the position that they would kick more than 8.

Power forward alone dont win you flag. They are a nice to have not a critical element.Geelong won 2 flags and got pipped on the big day in 2008 without one. You dont do the Hawks justice if you put it down to just Buddy and Roughhead. It wasn't. And FWIW, Franklin is a freak of a footballer who is not your traditional power forward.

Yep. Pretty much what i was saying in terms of having some A graders and a mix of very good players across the lines. Otherwise you become too KPF centric. Not sure what point you're trying to make against my argument here RR. Maybe this is your way of reinforcing it? I never said i put the Hawks winning in 2008 down to the twin towers. What i was saying was, i personally think it helps having them there rather than not having them.

Ditto the above for your one player centric comment below lol.

In the modern game reliance on just one key forward is potentially good in the short term if the player is very good but the long term its a disaster but opposition teams would cut you forward plan down quickly. Being one player centric in the Forward line is not a recipe for longevity of success. And FWIW, if you have Jako in your forward line then it sucks the oxygen for everyone else. Loved him at his peak 20 years ago but I am not sure I would want him right now.

I can't see a player the ilk of Jakovich sucking the life out of 'everyone else' at all. Not on match days anyway. Maybe off the field if he was behaving like a donk sure. Now who does that remind me of lol. But, provided he had half a brain off the field, i personally think it's a huge lift to those around on match days.

Others can feed off his bullocking/contested work (if you have some decent crumbing mosquito types) and the accuracy that a KPF would bring on many occasions, could be the difference during close home & away games. I witnessed him play on many occasions (as i'm sure you did), and IMO he lifted those around him, they seemed to grow a leg when he was up and about. IMO others around him walked a foot taller lol. He was the big bull in the park, sticking it to the opposition no matter how much they were giving it to our boys. I always felt we could beat pretty much anyone when he was in the team, fully fit and in form. I'm sure the King/Plugger/Dermie and other KPFs would have had similar effects on their team mates much of the time too over the years.

I very much doubt whether the Hawks could have had such an amazing run during their 80's (and 91) era of dominance without their two KPFs in the team, just being reliant on a power mid field and some balanced B graders up forward.

Not saying a 'Lone' KPF is the panacea on GF day either without having other solid options across forward. In agreement with you there. I also prefer a solid/more balanced team across all lines, as i mentioned in my earlier thread, rather than being too reliant on one KPF. However, i think they could help during regular season games (including block busters) towards the team making a GF (or at least helping to push the team closer to making it).

For example, if it came down to percentage in order to scrape into a top 4 placing or securing a home final etc, a few extra goals during the season from that one KPF, versus a competing opposition team who doesn't have any KPFs, could be the difference in tipping you over the line.

Overall, i think we're pretty much in agreement as far as i can tell RR, the exception being you would reject a KPF (or at least one like Jakovich) in your team preferring to having a balanced/solid mid field that can kick the teams goals, whereas i would happily take both (and no i'm not saying i would only consider a reincarnation of Jakovich as such, just that i would take him or someone similar if i was lucky enough to have someone gift us that fairytale and offer us the option).

Cheers mate

B)

Edited June 3, 2011 by Rusty Nails

[The Chazz 4,077]

NB. Hawkins & Mooney / Mooney & N. Ablett / Lynch & Hansen are a very very poor couple of KPF targets.

(and Embley ain't a tall forward)

Just re-reading our conversation Artie, and we are actually agreeing, you need KPF as targets. Where you are quoting me incorrectly (or maybe accidently), is that I never said they have to be dominant. And your above post proves my point - 2 KPF tha taren't dominant.

However, in your obvious statement about the rest of the team, of course we need ball winning mids and a ruckman and FB, but a team wont win a flag with just those areas alone, they need bigger targets. No team in the last decade has won a flag that doesn't have 2 big targets up forward - reagrdless of those forwards ability. Maybe Sydney is the only exception.