Why are we so suprised?

[dee-luded 2,959]

You should.

Have a read of Garry Lyon quotes in today's age. He laments Melbourne's high risk high reward gameplan and talks of West Coast's organisation and excellent structures. Blind Freddy can see that we have the worst gameplan in the game.

You are pushing the Lyon bandwagon, aren't you. So there is a push on?

[Guest Artie Bucco]

In my short time here "Why You Little" I've observed that your posts are like a broken record.

And, far from the repotition turning me around to your view, it instead just makes threads more painful to read.

Please, you've made your point. A thousand times.

Onto your above post:

That's just it - it's a fallacy that the players aren't showing any effort, application or heart.

They are getting beaten, but for some reason some people don't recognise effort being put in.

Part of the problem is that inexperience is leading to players missing assignments and being caught in the wrong place.

It's very hard to put energy into the match when you are unsure where you need to apply it.

One missed assignment against a well-drilled and experienced team will have a snowball effect - as we saw on Thursday.

[888Dee 6]

OK were a young side were an inexperienced side in development. You want to know were to put some energy? Tackle like you mean it, chase, put your head over the ball body on the line, win a free kick. Kick the ball and hit a target or kick to advantage. Lay a block or shepherd. These guys started playing AFL recently cos theyre young but theyve all played footy for years. Be competitive. Have a crack. Your on prime time TV. Try not doing these things in under 11s and see how much game time you get.

[Sir Why You Little 36,728]

In my short time here "Why You Little" I've observed that your posts are like a broken record.

And, far from the repotition turning me around to your view, it instead just makes threads more painful to read.

Please, you've made your point. A thousand times.

Onto your above post:

That's just it - it's a fallacy that the players aren't showing any effort, application or heart.

They are getting beaten, but for some reason some people don't recognise effort being put in.

Part of the problem is that inexperience is leading to players missing assignments and being caught in the wrong place.

It's very hard to put energy into the match when you are unsure where you need to apply it.

One missed assignment against a well-drilled and experienced team will have a snowball effect - as we saw on Thursday.

You are talking Stats so you completely missed my point....Carry on.

[Striker475 696]

In my short time here "Why You Little" I've observed that your posts are like a broken record.

And, far from the repotition turning me around to your view, it instead just makes threads more painful to read.

Please, you've made your point. A thousand times.

Onto your above post:

That's just it - it's a fallacy that the players aren't showing any effort, application or heart.

They are getting beaten, but for some reason some people don't recognise effort being put in.

Part of the problem is that inexperience is leading to players missing assignments and being caught in the wrong place.

It's very hard to put energy into the match when you are unsure where you need to apply it.

One missed assignment against a well-drilled and experienced team will have a snowball effect - as we saw on Thursday.

Artie - there's not the effort being put in. In particular by senior players. Where's Aaron Davey? Col Sylvia? Brad Green? Chip Frawley (although, yes, injury)? Nathan Jones?

And yes, these guys are inexperienced, but they also know how to play football. Ultimately, that's what they do. And it's the simple things that they aren't doing - leading, tackling, shepherding, that sort of thing. The stuff you learn at AusKick, not the stuff you learn at TAC Cup level. Defensive assignments are all well and good, but when you're not tackling it ultimately doesn't matter because you won't put on the pressure.

[Rogue 585]

Thanks for all that..A fine read, but effort, application & heart are not mentioned here which are also very important indicators & that is what the majority of supporters are very concerned about as well.

Where is all the good tackles from last year, they weren't all laid by Jordie Mckenzie were they!!!!

McDonald laid some.

Onto your above post:

That's just it - it's a fallacy that the players aren't showing any effort, application or heart.

I agree.

When playing football I at times found myself on the wrong side of some very one-sided games; I'm sure it looked as if my team wasn't trying.

[H_T 3,036]

You are talking Stats so you completely missed my point....Carry on.

Poor response to Artie.

[H_T 3,036]

Well said. And may I add it's certainly no 'fantasy'. It's reality.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

You are talking Stats so you completely missed my point....Carry on.

I don't quite understand.

I didn't mention stats.

Artie - there's not the effort being put in. In particular by senior players. Where's Aaron Davey? Col Sylvia? Brad Green? Chip Frawley (although, yes, injury)? Nathan Jones?

And yes, these guys are inexperienced, but they also know how to play football. Ultimately, that's what they do. And it's the simple things that they aren't doing - leading, tackling, shepherding, that sort of thing. The stuff you learn at AusKick, not the stuff you learn at TAC Cup level. Defensive assignments are all well and good, but when you're not tackling it ultimately doesn't matter because you won't put on the pressure.

I agree that senior players are not performing as desired, but I don't agree that they are showing no effort.

When you continually succumb to the avalanche of pressure being applied, it can appear as if no effort is being put in, but you should know better.

Simply: we were beaten and beaten well.

There was however a lack of leadership shown - that is a problem we've had with our older players for some time.

It will be a while longer before our kids, who show great leadership, are old enough to assume those roles.

Yes, these kids know how to play football, but do you not understand that there is a big step up between juniors and the AFL?

That they are playing against bigger, older, more experienced players - do you think that counts for nothing?

There was leading, tackling (although often broken), shepherding (not often).

Credit must go to the eagles for applying intense pressure, leading to many turnovers.

That in turn leaves players out of position to make tackles.

In my eyes, the biggest reasons for the loss were lack of physically mature bodies, and lack of quality senior leadership.

The only thing that will change these 2 areas is........... time.

Not something the coach has a lot of, if you listen to the media jackals.

Unfairly, in my opinion.

[daisycutter 29,429]

Well said. And may I add it's certainly no 'fantasy'. It's reality.

maybe not fantasy, but if you look hard enough you will always find some fact or statistic to back up your point of view. Its called rationalisation.

Fact remains we have been [censored] all year and we are down in just too many areas

Its not too late to turn it around but the clock is certainly ticking

[H_T 3,036]

maybe not fantasy, but if you look hard enough you will always find some fact or statistic to back up your point of view. Its called rationalisation.

Fact remains we have been [censored] all year and we are down in just too many areas

Its not too late to turn it around but the clock is certainly ticking

True. We post those facts for rationalisation, from time to time. I'm sure you've read them in triplicate at times. It gets a little difficult repeating them so often.

You're right, it's not too late. By my reckoning, I think Bailey would be wishing Mckenzie & Scully god's speed for their return. Why ? Contested possessions & tackling. The two key elements involved in winning games. Along with Junior, they were the top 3 of 4 in 2010 that contributed to these important fundamentals (in particular tackling). Fwiw, Moloney was the other of the 4.

There you go, I just repeated my rationalisation. Again. I'm tired..

[Hannabal 4]

You are pushing the Lyon bandwagon, aren't you. So there is a push on?

The only bandwagon I'm pushing is my own.

And Snoopy, you may have missed a question I asked you on this thread.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

I'd have a hard time saying no to Malthouse if he wants the job, unless Bailey were to guide us to finals (as it is, I think with our side, it would be a very good result).

I'm not interested in having Lyon or Roos as coach, I'd prefer Bailey stay.

[Range Rover 1,935]

I'd have a hard time saying no to Malthouse if he wants the job, unless Bailey were to guide us to finals (as it is, I think with our side, it would be a very good result).

I'm not interested in having Lyon or Roos as coach, I'd prefer Bailey stay.

The fact that you would even equivocate if Malthouse put his hand up to coach us discredits pretty much everything you have to say.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

The fact that you would even equivocate if Malthouse put his hand up to coach us discredits pretty much everything you have to say.

Why do you say that?

I respect Malthouse greatly. He is a proven successful coach at multiple clubs, and has won multiple premierships.

As much as I am fan of Bailey, there is still an element of wait & hope with him, as there are with many young unproven coaches.

However I misspoke, I'm a fan of Malthouse and would prefer him if Bailey goes.

I have a feeling if we don't make finals, Bailey will go, whether fairly or unfairly.

As a result my preference is Malthouse.

Why do you feel a need to wholly discredit everything I say because I think Malthouse is a good coach?

[Range Rover 1,935]

Why do you say that?

I respect Malthouse greatly. He is a proven successful coach at multiple clubs, and has won multiple premierships.

As much as I am fan of Bailey, there is still an element of wait & hope with him, as there are with many young unproven coaches.

However I misspoke, I'm a fan of Malthouse and would prefer him if Bailey goes.

I have a feeling if we don't make finals, Bailey will go, whether fairly or unfairly.

As a result my preference is Malthouse.

Why do you feel a need to wholly discredit everything I say because I think Malthouse is a good coach?

My apologies, I went too far there. I just couldn't understand how one one could even entertain the thought of declining Malthouse if he expressed an interest in the job. I mean, I feel for Dean in this situation, but if Mick is a possibility then it would be akin for us throwing out a winning tatts ticket to say no.

We need a seriously tough, tactically brilliant man of experience and presence at our club at this point in time. Someone our stagnating yet talented players will have no choice but to listen to or get the frack out.

It's time for Dean and his passionless powerpoint persona to move on.

[Hannabal 4]

If the question was what I liked about Baileys coaching my answer was Posted Yesterday, 02:07 PM.

If that's not the question I did miss it.

Sorry, for some reason I missed it.

In reality, into Dean's 4th year you and I both agree that we really don't know for certain if can coach, and we certainly couldn't say with any confidence that he has the nous to be a great coach, but at least we were encouraged by the Footscray game, the two Collingwood games and the Swans game. Ultimately, we won one.

In James Hird's first year as coach they look really well structured and organised and unless it's an amazing aberration he looks like a well drilled, albeit young, coach. And this has been noted from his first foray into the NAB Cup. Have we ever looked so well organised as a team under Bailey ? Perhaps you'll point to the Sydney game, but I'd suggest that that was a game where everything went right, Sydney weren't on their game and it had less to do with gameplan, but rather a young side with their tails up taking their chances. More a case of high risk high reward footy that paid off.

We can all make excuses for Dean and many of them are valid, but for me it's the inability to be able to handle the forward press and poor defensive aspects that lead me to the conclusion that he's been asleep at the wheel over summer and has been relying on the natural maturation of the group to provide those "thrilling" performances he said we'd see when addressing the faithful at the AGM. It's like he's just been waiting for it to happen and not diligently orchestrating his own unique style that was going to make it happen.

Dean speaks well, he's been in footy a long time so clearly he isn't a dill, he's handled himself in the media astonishly well, but save a few good performances there's not much to hang your hat on from a playing perspective.

[dee-luded 2,959]

maybe not fantasy, but if you look hard enough you will always find some fact or statistic to back up your point of view. Its called rationalisation.

Fact remains we have been [censored] all year and we are down in just too many areas

Its not too late to turn it around but the clock is certainly ticking

Yes your right Daisy, we're not playing in great form, and we've had 2 shocking losses to big side @ Night.

The point we need to remember is that we are at 50%. Playing poorly, But we've got 2 Wins,,, a draw and 2 Losses, against big physically mature teams. One over at Perth.

It's really not too bad!

The painful thing is Not that we lost 2 games... But the manner of the defeats, that scared many supporters into a knee jerk reaction.

I think it's always encouraging that if we're out of form, yet still winning more than last year,,, then we've still got a lot of improvement around the corner.

[Roost It 1,434]

You would have to expect that Melbourne would be sounding out the likes of Malthouse and Roos as well as a host of able, experienced, Premiership assistants. If we're not, we're asleep at the wheel. Bailey may well turn things around by years end but if Malthouse could be lured who would you choose? It's a no brainer, It's Bailey's last year unless we can't find the money.

[Weedster 174]

In reality, into Dean's 4th year you and I both agree that we really don't know for certain if can coach

This speaks volumes. MFC has been incredibly patient with DB. No coach in history has ever had a contract extended on after B2B Wooden Spoons FFS, yet we did it ... and waited .. FOR THIS CRAP ! Enough of the ridiculous statements - "we want to win more quarters" .." i didn't see that coming" .. " we'll have to go back-to-basics" .. what utter drivel. The club has done a mighty job getting its act together off the field and members & supporters have every right to expect progress on the field as well. For once, we've got a great draw, an opportunity to build on, yet still we have the same old excuses trotted out. Enough - Move him on !

[H_T 3,036]

This speaks volumes. MFC has been incredibly patient with DB. No coach in history has ever had a contract extended on after B2B Wooden Spoons FFS, yet we did it ... and waited .. FOR THIS CRAP ! Enough of the ridiculous statements - "we want to win more quarters" .." i didn't see that coming" .. " we'll have to go back-to-basics" .. what utter drivel. The club has done a mighty job getting its act together off the field and members & supporters have every right to expect progress on the field as well. For once, we've got a great draw, an opportunity to build on, yet still we have the same old excuses trotted out. Enough - Move him on !

Get a grip. Look at the list at the end of 2007, 2008, 2009 and get back to us.

edit: even at the end of 2010 ~!

[Hannabal 4]

It's a very hard game to understand.

It is. Dennis Pagan won two flags, but looked like a chump at Carlton with terrible cattle. Unlike Carlton at the time I think that the basis of our list is good and can continue to be tweaked over the next couple of years.

For a moment let's deal in known knowns. We know that Malthouse is finishing as the coach of Collingwood later this year and we know that Paul Roos is also not engaged in a senior coaching role. We also know that they are recognised throughout the industry as terrific senior coaches with a track record of success. We believe that we have a quality young list and have a 4 year coach coming out of contract that has yet to taste finals (I'm obviously making an assumption here). If we're tracking ok mid year, but still have question marks as to whether we've got the right coach to take us to a flag, do we sit down to negotiate a new contract, or do we make approaches to one or both of the above and go all out to secure one of their services ?

I have to say that the thought of Malthouse, or Roos taking control of our playing list in a quest for a flag has much appeal.

[H_T 3,036]

It is. Dennis Pagan won two flags, but looked like a chump at Carlton with terrible cattle. Unlike Carlton at the time I think that the basis of our list is good and can continue to be tweaked over the next couple of years.

For a moment let's deal in known knowns. We know that Malthouse is finishing as the coach of Collingwood later this year and we know that Paul Roos is also not engaged in a senior coaching role. We also know that they are recognised throughout the industry as terrific senior coaches with a track record of success. We believe that we have a quality young list and have a 4 year coach coming out of contract that has yet to taste finals (I'm obviously making an assumption here). If we're tracking ok mid year, but still have question marks as to whether we've got the right coach to take us to a flag, do we sit down to negotiate a new contract, or do we make approaches to one or both of the above and go all out to secure one of their services ?

I have to say that the thought of Malthouse, or Roos taking control of our playing list in a quest for a flag has much appeal.

For the moment in dealing with the knowns. Whilst it is in the best interests to stick fat with Bailey and show full support, I believe it would also be in the club's best interests for it's members, sponsors, cotorie groups to discuss and investigate all options available whilst the season is in progress. That would be seen to be due diligence. It's what football clubs do (or should do). There might be nothing said publicly, but you'd be naive to think discussion doesn't take place.

If there are other experienced coaches out there, available and willing. You'd be mad not to at least explore (by considered approach) all options before arriving at a conclusion - when all is considered, in the best interests of the club. No individual is bigger than the club. But Malthouse comes close. Bailey might still be the man, we don't know.

By the way, what about your old sparring partner ? Is he still awailable ?

[Weedster 174]

Get a grip. Look at the list at the end of 2007, 2008, 2009 and get back to us.

edit: even at the end of 2010 ~!

Look at the list Hardwick inherited at the start of last year and the progress they have made in 12 short months (not 4 years !) ... and get back to us !! We are way too accepting of mediocrity here. This is a results-driven business - don't expect people to continue to put $$ in and continue to turn up to watch efforts like that !

[H_T 3,036]

Look at the list Hardwick inherited at the start of last year and the progress they have made in 12 short months (not 4 years !) ... and get back to us !! We are way too accepting of mediocrity here. This is a results-driven business - don't expect people to continue to put $$ in and continue to turn up to watch efforts like that !

I'm looking at their list and their progress. They've beaten North and Brisbane. Whoop de do. Martin has led the way. They're up and running and playing with some confidence. We're not.

No one is accepting mediocrity here. It's understanding the list and factors that have influence. It's a tough gig.