Three Forms of Attack

[Akum 2,660]

Note that the midfield is central to all three forms of attack.

For quick transition out of defence, the midfield has to present. If they don't, it gets stuck in the defensive 50. This depends on speed & smart running & fast precise ball movement & decision-making in all parts of the ground, and on both the ball carrier and ball receiver (and possibly the next 2 or 3 receivers) being in motion; if any of them are static, it collapses in a heap.

For clearances, it's obvious. A quick and well-directed clearance will unsettle any defence, with or without power forwards. The power forwards mentioned are all mobile enough to find space, and I'd argue that more goals are scored on a fast break by finding a forward in space or kicking it to advantage in a one-on-one contest than by "crashing a pack". In other words, by a purposeful delivery into the forward line, rather than an aimless "kick to position". This doesn't need to be coached; you either have good clearance players or you don't and you need to get them; or in our case, develop them.

The forward defence requires structures and plans & being well-drilled, so that everybody knows what they should be doing in relation to everybody else. But the absolute essential is that the midfield has to cover the midfield space, to deprive the defence trying to clear the ball of any easy "get-out-of-jail" options. If there are 3 opposing midfielders free in the centre square, no amount of forward pressure is going to stop the ball getting to them eventually. If the backs don't have a low-risk option, it gives the forwards that half-a-second hesitation to exert real or implied pressure.

So midfielders have to be good at transitions, good at clearances, and good at covering midfield space. It might be an interesting exercise to map out each of our mids (including the rucks) against these three parameters, based on the three forms of attack, and compare them to other clubs.

We've certainly improved immensely all ove the ground since 2008. But I don't think our midfield - in the absence of Scully, McKenzie, Gysberts & Morton - has improved anywhere near as much.

[Sir Why You Little 36,987]

Great Post Bhima!

My thoughts on this is that our transition attack can be extremely effective with modern zoning, etc but is also a bit of a double edged sword. When we are up and running we look superb, this was seen last year against the swans, second quarter against Hawthorn, and glimpses in many a game. When done well it is very effective against the forward press of the likes of collingwood, seen last year in our two games. This tactic has also seen great sucsess for Geelong. The downside is that when you are 2% off it all goes wrong. Because it creates constant turnovers in defence as shown by the 40 odd scoring shots on the weekend. My veiw is that it as a form of attack is exciting but very risky and maybe not prone to the ultimate sucsess (Yes Geelong have two premierships but one was close, they lost one due to their inability to perform the transition most effectively and the other was in a year where other teams weren't in the same ball park). Over the long haul the hard contested sides do well in finals. I think that while we should continue to play the transition from defence football, we must also become a GREAT clearance side in order to get our own ball and break the oppositions forward press

Agree. A Solid Defense is your Back Bone. And Geelong have been pretty good in that area too.

The Cats basically won two flags with a better than average forward line, but by no means elite.

Midfield and Defense A to A+

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,778]

What a constructive and insightful contribution, Bhima. Thankyou! Keep it up!

[Axis of Bob 11,687]

Akum, I think that yours is a really good post and gives insight into the OP’s data.

Collingwood was the master of the defensive press last year, and their breakdown of scores from Forward Pressure/Stoppages/Transition was 16/75/7. Ours is 10/50/34.

What that says, to me, is that we really struggle to win any quality football from stoppages. The ones we do win are scrappy and we don’t win enough of them.

I ran a quick bit of research myself, and worked out how many points each team has scored against them per inside 50 they concede. This should tell you how effective a defence is at defending. Overall we are the 7th most effective (ie, 7th lowest score per inside 50 conceded = 1.66 points/i50). Conversely, in an attacking sense, we are 6th best in turning inside 50s into scores (1.83 points/i50).

To me that says that we are effective at each end of the ground, but we are not having the ball at our end of the ground enough.

It also gives an insight into how we play and how the opposition’s press works. The press works on territory rather than possession. Keeping the ball at one end of the ground. Our system tends to allow this to happen, as we push number into our backline to win the ball. We tend to win the ball in defence a lot more than we do in the forward line and midfield (as shown in the OP’s data). This is part of why people get frustrated that there’s no forward line, because they push back to defend.

It can be hard to break through the press, so the ball gets turned over a bit. But because we have numbers back we are able to cover most of the opportunities that are presented to the opposition and defend against them.

However, eventually the ball breaks through the press and, when it does, we are very fast and usually beat the opposition’s defenders into our forward 50 – so we can score quite easily. That’s why we score so well from transition. We don’t have a lumbering forward, and even those that we have drafted (Cook, Howe etc) are all athletic and really good endurance runners. But these players also need to be able to contest that first kick coming from defence in order to move through the press or, at least, neutralise the situation and create a dead ball where we have the potential to move it through the zone. This is the contest we’re not getting enough of at the moment (probably because it’s only Jamar competing for it).

What we need is the body size around the footy. This will give us clean takeaways from stoppages to help us score and also help to force more stoppages when being caught up in the press to create more opportunities. It’s a game that involves a lot of hard running, but we have drafted accordingly. Scully, Trengove, Morton, Grimes, Gysberts, McKenzie are all midfielders with top level endurance.

If we start having games where we are level for inside 50s then we’re probably winning by 10 goals.

[H_T 3,043]

It looks like you me and Bhima watched the same show.

It also highlighted that Bailey's tactics are behind other clubs and that our gameplan won't cut it in finals or against the best teams. It all gets back to our mediocre midfield and poor defensive pressure. McKenzie is sorely missed.

I thought so. Amazingly Bhima dreamt (or woke up in the middle of the night) the exact three forms of attack as mentioned on the show. If it is the reference point (AFL Insiders) - which I think it is as all the percentages mentioned are consistent of that on the show, I think it should be recognised. Because it's a good insightful contribution.

I agree that it highlights our mediocre midfield and our inability to turn around our poor clearance record. It also put the microscope on our gameplan that when put under pressure such as Hawthorn did in the 3rd quarter, our young team doesn't quite know how to counteract or go to a plan B,C,D,E just yet. Brad Scott though highlighted our midfield and understood that it is still in it's infancy and will take further time to develop. He highlighted Sylvia's consistent performances to date as he is now maturing as a midfielder and one the opposition bring up as one to quell his influence on games.

As an aside on afl360 tonight the panel was damning on our lack of toughness and footy smarts. Toughness and the ability to make a stand were mentioned when they thought of Melbourne. Three players - Moloney, Sylvia & Tapscott were the only ones identified. McClure obviously doesn't rate Moloney and he said as much in few little words.

[jnrmac 20,055]

Enjoyed your post Bhima.

Our midfield is the cause of all problems relating to I50s and i50 differentials. The defence try hard but are under ridiculous pressure. The slow movement on kick ins kills us.

And a fwd press. Simple. We don't have one. Mpre holes than Suisse Cheese.

Our clearances when we do get them are grab, quick kick. Jones and Moloney try to break tackles but can't. They don't have the quickness to burst away a la Burgoyne or Hodge.

Coll and Haw get them and run 3 or 4 steps before delivering the ball more often than not to a teamate. That's the difference between good midfields and ours. And Jamar as much as I like him too often has his taps sharked by the opp'n.

Oh and a couple of left footers would help in the middle because more often than not they wrongfoot would be tacklers.

AND no-one can explain to me WHY or HOW Hird has managed in 4 months over summer to build what appears to be a reasonable defensive unit?? WTF are Bailey and Royal doing here???

Edited April 6, 2011 by jnrmac

[The Chazz 4,077]

Enjoyed your post Bhima.

Our midfield is the cause of all problems relating to I50s and i50 differentials. The defence try hard but are under ridiculous pressure. The slow movement on kick ins kills us.

And a fwd press. Simple. We don't have one. Mpre holes than Suisse Cheese.

Our clearances when we do get them are grab, quick kick. Jones and Moloney try to break tackles but can't. They don't have the quickness to burst away a la Burgoyne or Hodge.

Coll and Haw get them and run 3 or 4 steps before delivering the ball more often than not to a teamate. That's the difference between good midfields and ours. And Jamar as much as I like him too often has his taps sharked by the opp'n.

Oh and a couple of left footers would help in the middle because more often than not they wrongfoot would be tacklers.

AND no-one can explain to me WHY or HOW Hird has managed in 4 months over summer to build what appears to be a reasonable defensive unit?? WTF are Bailey and Royal doing here???

The thing you need to remember, and the thing a lot are starting to realise, is that our senior midfielders aren't that good! So what if we start with Jamar, Moloney, Sylvia and Jones in the guts at a centre bounce. It's only Jamar that is a true A-grader, and Sylvia shows that he can make it. I'm not saying that we need to get rid of the other 2, I'm just saying cut them some slack. If they were stars and performed crap, then I'd have no hesitation getting stuck in to them. Reality is, they're not. What we will find though is that in a couple of years when Scully, Trengove and McKenzie are that bit older and are our true A-graders, the likes of Jones and Moloney will be quite handy players for us. Unfortunately, we need them to be more than handy now, but sadly, they don't have the ability to be. That has nothing to do with coaches, etc, if it did, why isn't Newton kicking 100 goals a year?

An extra bit on Moloney - he had a lot of potential when he first came to Melbourne. Let's not forget, he wore number 32 for Geelong - Gary Hocking's old number, Club's don't give young players special numbers unless they have an opinion of them. When Moloney first came to Melbourne, I have no doubt that the umpires hindered his progress for the next 3 years. He also had injury problems, but the umpires would have sucked every bit of confidence out of him. How do I know this? Because the umpires at their training used to show footage of Moloney's style and used him as their guinea pig to "clean" the game up. That's a fact.

[Disco Demons 92]

Bhima- it's a worry when we are waiting on Scully, Trengove, Gysberts and Mckenzie to develop. Three of the Fab Four aren't playing for Melbourne at the moment. Plus the potential 'Power Forward' is playing like a rover at the moment (watts). 'Captain' Cook is years away. Very worrying signs at melb.

Edited April 6, 2011 by disco_demon

[Bhima 0]

The comments in addition to my original post have been really excellent, and overall it seems the development of the midfield is the critical point. I have to also agree with Maldonboy that the intangeable quality of a coach - the ability to inspire - is vital. I remember Damien Hardwick, after moving to Port Adelaide from Essendon, commented that Sheedy hardly had a gameplan compared to Williams. Sheedy seemed to me the master of getting the best out his chargers by giving them self belief and inspiring them to do whatever it takes. I guess the jury is out on Bailey, but at this stage of development it is of (slightly) less importance.

As someone who does write the odd essay, I do believe in referencing where information comes from and the statistics that I used in the post came from Football Insiders and Pro Stats. I did in fact come up with the idea of '3 forms of attack' in the middle of the night prior to watching football insiders (I watched the replay yesterday), and it was after I saw those statistics on FI that I felt I had some evidence to back up my argument.

Cheers

[e25 5]

Bhima- it's a worry when we are waiting on Scully, Trengove, Gysberts and Mckenzie to develop. Three of the Fab Four aren't playing for Melbourne at the moment. Plus the potential 'Power Forward' is playing like a rover at the moment (watts). 'Captain' Cook is years away. Very worrying signs at melb.

Hahahaha Are you only just realising this??!?

My god...

I've been saying it for a while now, expectations are way too high...

[Radar Detector 1,347]

Bhima- it's a worry when we are waiting on Scully, Trengove, Gysberts and Mckenzie to develop. Three of the Fab Four aren't playing for Melbourne at the moment. Plus the potential 'Power Forward' is playing like a rover at the moment (watts). 'Captain' Cook is years away. Very worrying signs at melb.

Worrying signs? I would've thought it shows we've just been through a comprehensive rebuild of the list meaning that our talent is skewed towards the young and raw end of the spectrum.

More like positive signs if people have the PATIENCE to wait it out. Sometimes I think I've jumped on the Yellow and Black board by mistake...

[John Crow Batty 8,862]

Thank you Bimma for your informative insight as always. Not much more that could be said on our forward play. But I am of the school that believes most of our attacking problems start with the midfield. I don't think our midfielders are as bad or callow as many think. They are not the best in the comp but they should be able to take more advantage of Jamar's ruck dominance and compete better.

Problem is IMO is that Jamar's too predictable. Every centre tap out he gets seems to be a replay of the previous one. Starts with the wrestle then a short soft tap out close into congestion. Time after time the ball gets sharked or if our players get first touch they are suffocated and cannot get a clean handle and disposal. The reaction time of our players seems to be slow because the opposition is pouncing even before we touch the ball. When Hawthorn started kicking serial goals it was the same thing again and again at the centre bounces. Consequently the defence transition game was our only option because thats where ball was coming from most of the time. Under that kind of pressure its going to break down. A power forward is useless if we can't get the ball down forward with pressure creating regularity and speed.

Something needs to be done to change the dynamics at stoppage play. Jamar's dominance seems to have turned into a poison chalice for us. He's got to start being more creative, longer tap outs, taps out the back, fisting the ball forward and structure the midfield setup for these options.

Edited April 7, 2011 by america de cali

[The Chazz 4,077]

Bhima- it's a worry when we are waiting on Scully, Trengove, Gysberts and Mckenzie to develop. Three of the Fab Four aren't playing for Melbourne at the moment. Plus the potential 'Power Forward' is playing like a rover at the moment (watts). 'Captain' Cook is years away. Very worrying signs at melb.

It's not a worry at all disco, it's the truth and has been that way for the past 3 years +.

As E25 said, are you just starting to realise this? I'm sure as hell that Bailey, Stynes, and co aren't.

[jnrmac 20,055]

Thank you Bimma for your informative insight as always. Not much more that could be said on our forward play. But I am of the school that believes most of our attacking problems start with the midfield. I don't think our midfielders are as bad or callow as many think. They are not the best in the comp but they should be able to take more advantage of Jamar's ruck dominance and compete better.

Problem is IMO is that Jamar's too predictable. Every centre tap out he gets seems to be a replay of the previous one. Starts with the wrestle then a short soft tap out close into congestion. Time after time the ball gets sharked or if our players get first touch they are suffocated and cannot get a clean handle and disposal. The reaction time of our players seems to be slow because the opposition is pouncing even before we touch the ball. When Hawthorn started kicking serial goals it was the same thing again and again at the centre bounces. Consequently the defence transition game was our only option because thats where ball was coming from most of the time. Under that kind of pressure its going to break down. A power forward is useless if we can't get the ball down forward with pressure creating regularity and speed.

Something needs to be done to change the dynamics at stoppage play. Jamar's dominance seems to have turned into a poison chalice for us. He's got to start being more creative, longer tap outs, taps out the back, fisting the ball forward and structure the midfield setup for these options.

And we rarely have centre players on the defensive side of the circle

[The Chazz 4,077]

And we rarely have centre players on the defensive side of the circle

Is that right? I watched the Carlton v GC game live, and then the replay again on Sunday morning. The one thing they kept highlighting was the fact that the GC would often not have a mid on the defensive side of the circle, and get smashed in the clearances as a result. So I decided to watch our centre bounce setup quite closely that afternoon, and I thought nearly every time we had the "ideal" set up, it's just we still got smashed in the clearances!

[old55 23,414]

Interesting that you focus on "forms of attack" when Collingwood's premiership success is based on a form of defence.

Unsure if this is a step forward from your "we've got it, they've got it or it's in dispute" analysis or not.

[Scoop Junior 3,435]

I think this is a brilliant and interesting thread and have enjoyed reading the posts.

I think we definitely need to get better at keeping the ball in our forward line, but I don't think we have to play the 'press' just because everyone else is doing it. A good zone on kick outs, together with some increased numbers in our forward line (we are often out-numbered 3 v 1, which makes it hard to keep the ball in) and a greater commitment to forward pressure should do the trick. Even an attenuated version of the press can help increase forward pressure and keep the ball in our forward line. Just because St Kilda and Collingwood have done it recently and teams are copying does not mean the full-on forward press is the only way to go.

I think the big thing for us to improve is clearances, as when we lose we often get well beaten in this area. An effective clearance for us is so critical as it gets the ball into our forward line quickly so that our forwards are one-out. Our forwards rely more on talent than size (and there is talent in there) to win the ball and giving them the chance one-out against their opponents with the ball coming in quickly is going to worry opposition defenders. The last quarter of the Sydney game was the best evidence of this, as Moloney started dominating out of the middle and we looked like scoring every time we went forward from the clearance.

The good news is that there are three young players not currently in the side who have shown great talent in winning the ball at the stoppages (Scully, Gysberts and McKenzie). I think their return into the side will give us a big lift in ball winning ability. While they are still light and having a big body helps in close, I don't think a big body is as critical as people make out and rather it's the player's talent to position themselves in the right spot and get an effective first possession that makes a great clearance player. Judd and Ablett win their clearances more on their ability to read the play and get an effective possession out rather than just relying on their bodies to push people around. That is why someone like Jones is not a great clearance player, he has the body but not the ability to get that damaging first possession.

[The Chazz 4,077]

I think this is a brilliant and interesting thread and have enjoyed reading the posts.

I think we definitely need to get better at keeping the ball in our forward line, but I don't think we have to play the 'press' just because everyone else is doing it. A good zone on kick outs, together with some increased numbers in our forward line (we are often out-numbered 3 v 1, which makes it hard to keep the ball in) and a greater commitment to forward pressure should do the trick. Even an attenuated version of the press can help increase forward pressure and keep the ball in our forward line. Just because St Kilda and Collingwood have done it recently and teams are copying does not mean the full-on forward press is the only way to go.

I think the big thing for us to improve is clearances, as when we lose we often get well beaten in this area. An effective clearance for us is so critical as it gets the ball into our forward line quickly so that our forwards are one-out. Our forwards rely more on talent than size (and there is talent in there) to win the ball and giving them the chance one-out against their opponents with the ball coming in quickly is going to worry opposition defenders. The last quarter of the Sydney game was the best evidence of this, as Moloney started dominating out of the middle and we looked like scoring every time we went forward from the clearance.

The good news is that there are three young players not currently in the side who have shown great talent in winning the ball at the stoppages (Scully, Gysberts and McKenzie). I think their return into the side will give us a big lift in ball winning ability. While they are still light and having a big body helps in close, I don't think a big body is as critical as people make out and rather it's the player's talent to position themselves in the right spot and get an effective first possession that makes a great clearance player. Judd and Ablett win their clearances more on their ability to read the play and get an effective possession out rather than just relying on their bodies to push people around. That is why someone like Jones is not a great clearance player, he has the body but not the ability to get that damaging first possession.

I find it ironic that the we are struggling in the forward pressure department, yet it is of public opinion that we were the ones who introduced the importance of forward pressure when a young Aaron Davey used to have more F50 tackles than anyone in the league.

It's a shame Aaron has become so vital as our quarterback-type, as it takes the man away from the position that he made his own. I think Aussie is more than capable to fill his shoes, he has done it at times, but really needs to add some consistency to his game. I honestly think we are a better team when he's in form, he also has the ability of finding that extra gear that Jurrah owns and doesn't always use (not saying Jurrah is struggling, I'm saying that when Aussie is playing, Jurrah goes to a different level that no normal AFL player has).

[John Crow Batty 8,862]

No offensive tactics are going to work effectively if our first clean possessions after centre clearances are coming from deep in defence with the opposition forward press coming down hard.

Edited April 7, 2011 by america de cali