Best 18

[titan_uranus 22,827]

Alright, so I think I've come to my decision.

Let me start by saying this is ridiculously difficult. I didn't think it would be this hard.

I was able to rule out a couple of teams, but picking a top 5 out of the remaining 7 or 8 took a lot of time, and I'm sure the other judges will have quite different choices. I highly doubt everyone will agree with what I've said about each team, but as BB said, this is subjective and in the end it's about each judge's opinions.

Anyway: (be aware, I wrote a s**t-tonne)...

Range Rover: Problems in defence with just Lake as a KPD. Goddard wasted if he has to play CHB. However I rate the forward line highly, as I am a massive Chris Knights fan, and I reckon he goes well alongside Fevola and Gumbleton as the two big men; with Green as the third tall Knights would get under the radar. Despite not playing through the centre for Geelong as much these days, Bartel still remains one of the leagues better mids, but despite him, Murphy and Hannebery the midfield seems a bit light on (Im not a Jackson nor Lewis fan).

HT: Love this defence as I am a massive Gwilt and Bock fan, and of course Frawley is a star. Mackie isnt the player he was back in 2007/8 though. Forward line is a weakness however. Pavlich is good, but he doesnt have much support with White being just OK and Sidebottom and Dangerfield bit-players who rotate through the midfield. IMO you can't rely on them to be scoring each and every week. Banfields OK as the crumber but Burgoyne is a midfielder. The midfield itself is pretty good, Cooney and Scully add the pace and class whilst Watson and Swallow get their hands dirty. Cox isnt as good now as he was 5 years ago but for pick 180 thats a bargain.

e25: No shortage of ruck options here if Kreuzers knee doesnt hold up, with Ryder and Clark more than able to step up. Good defence for mine, with Reid and Morris holding down FB and CHB easily, Ryder can play there but spends more time forward for Essendon these days, but I rate Grams drive of half-back, Hartlett has looked promising. No points off for Toy, but no points on either, basically meaning that for Toy (and Swallow and Patrick) I chose not to make a judgement either way. However I am cruel and points come off for the inexplicable decision to take the hack that is Palmer over Nat Fyfe. Sorry. Other than that, though, the midfield is good. Goodes, Pendlebury, Martin and Sylvia have all proved their worth. Kennedy, Johnson and Rioli in the forward line are enough for me to overlook Clark, who as a forward is not much chop. Overall one of the stronger sides.

Eth38: Good defence here, Pears is a nice choice for an Essendon player and is a good FB, Garland though has to take the second tall which isnt always ideal. The HB line is probably the best though, with Drummond, Gilbee and Harbrow giving massive drive. That gets good brownie points from me. Forward line is just average, Cloke is a beneficiary of a brilliant team and Walker and Byrnes are over-rated, but Fyfe, Milne and Gray help. I like this midfield, Mumford is the third best ruckman in the game and any midfield with Hayes and Hodge in it is going to go alright.

Deestroy All: The defence is pretty good with Scarlett at FB, but Merrett for mine is flaky as the CHB. Not exactly sure how Scott Selwood gets on anyones radar, despite West Coasts list being thin. Dawes should swap with Hansen, then with Dawes at CHF and Hall at FF, with Hansen as the third tall, that forward line is good, despite the ageing and perennially unfit Motlop. Hilles OK as the ruckman but the midfield is strong, with Judd, Boak, Deledio, Dal Santo and Bateman. A well-rounded side IMO.

Ox_5: Best forward line bar none. Both Riewoldts plus Jurrah and Porplyzia for extra marking options and Jetta and Higgins on the ground cant be beat, so kudos there. However, the balls got to get there, and with a terrible ruckman and a so-so midfield (Barlows form post-ACL is questionable, Black and Kerr are beyond their best) points come off. The defence is light on for run as well, with Thompson, Tarrant, Taylor and Gibson all slow tall defenders. Winderlich and Enright (glad someone took him!) are there for drive but Winderlichs disposal is poor. The forward line gets this team most of its points.

Roger Mellie: Not a fan of this defence, as I dont rate Krakouer or Chaplin too highly. Rich can kick but goes missing way too often. For mine the midfield comes near the bottom. Selwoods a star and Mundys 2010 was good but theres not a lot else going for it. Another good forward line though. LeCras and Didak ooze class, Roughead and Pods would work well together, although I have doubts about Pods' 2011 living up to his 2010, and Murphy played some stellar football, and can go back as well. Lags behind other teams overall though.

Deez Nutz: Straight away Id swap Staker and Waite. Stakers best footy in 2010 came as a defender, similarly Waites best was at CHF. Staker and Hurley are good KPDs but I dont like Rance much. Broughton, Gilbert and Sherman earn points for their drive off HB. Amazingly strong midfield, but I have no idea what Abletts doing at FF. That forward line is just average, ROK and Chapman will spend a lot of time there with this midfield but theres no FF, Staker/Waite isnt the best CHF, and Wonna and Hitchcock are just fillers to ensure those teams were represented. Points off for Naitanui also (yes, thats harsh).

The Master: Possibly the weakest defence of the lot. Grima and McPharlin as KPDs lag well behind others, Hurn was taken way too early, Surjan isnt anything special. Adcock and Kelly the only highlights. The forward line is tough to judge. Franklin obviously helps but I cant judge Swallow, and Morton, Henderson, Monfries and Schneider are all up and down players with little consistency. Love the choice of Jamar and the midfield isnt too bad, with Griffin, Thomas, Thompson and Hill. Kennedys 2010 was good but I dont know if that form can continue. Experience an issue.

Trengove: Moores a spud, but with Glass and Hooker the KPD is OK in this side. Plus Nick Maxwells there to help out. Browns an interesting one; clearly hes a star when fit, but add another year to his age for 2011 and who knows how many games hell miss. But I will always love Brown and with Tippett at FF, and Varcoe, Garlett and Harvey crumbing, the forward lines pretty good. Just as with Toy and Swallow, I wont pass judgement on Patrick. A good midfield here too, especially given Sandilands is the ruck. Strong on inside mids with Boyd, Sewell, Cassisi and McVeigh but I reckon theres enough on the outside with Montagna and help from Harvey, Varcoe and Grimes.

So, based on those analyses, I ended up with this:

5 - e25

4 - Deestroy All

3 - Trengove

2 - Eth38

1 - Ox_5

Edited December 20, 2010 by titan_uranus

[H_T 2,941]

Bring on the Supercoach DA...

Thanks for all the effort t_uranus for the in depth assessment. I agree with your summation on my team, what I tried to achieve when putting my team together was bringing a good strong backline and midfield together, whilst having a strong spine. Strong backline's are essential, so too strong fast midfield with balance. From your summation, you tend to agree. (yet no cigar ~votes )

The forwardline doesn't have a big name elite forward, apart from Pavlich. But I reckon Dangerfield can be as productive as Porplyzia who I agonised over between the two. The plus with PD is he can also play half forward, midfield. But he can also compete i50. Versatility provides a handful. Jesse White doesn't seem to get alot of airplay among tall key forwards. That and not as many goals as his counterparts may have cost me. I could have selected Daniel Bradshaw, I wonder if that had made a difference. However, I was looking to the future with big fella Jesse.

I see Sidebottom, Burgoyne and Banfield as more than "bit-players". Very dangerous.

[e25 5]

I'm paying for that moment of insanity in which I chose Palmer!

Fyfe would balance my side so much better too...

I like ox_5's side, but I think his forward line is lacking any decent crumbers.

Jurrah probably the best.

[H_T 2,941]

I'm paying for that moment of insanity in which I chose Palmer!

Fyfe would balance my side so much better too...

I wouldn't worry you got the 5.

{I wonder if I can entice the other judges like Qatar did IFFA}

[Axis of Bob 10,391]

OK. Here we go. I'd just like to preface my judgements with what I think is important to winning a premiership.

I am a big believer that you build a premiership from the back, that forward lines can be set up in any number of ways and that most games are won and lost in the midfield. I place a lot of importance on teams having deep quality midfields. I'm prepared to be flexible with different combinations of players, but I want to be able to see defensible logic behind these setups. I rate flexibility, especially in defence. I don't particularly rate ruckmen.

With that in mind, my 5-4-3-2-1 were:

1st - Deestroy All

2nd - High Tower

3rd - E25

4th - Deez Nutz

5th - Ox 5

Breakdown:

Deestroy All

Half back has some great run, with Malceski and Deledio. Merrett is solid enough and Scarlett is a star who provides a great deal of flexibility. Brown can play taller than he looks and Selwood would be good as a shut down small, but the defence still lacks a real third tall defender. I would have preferred Scarlett as a third tall or the selection of a real third tall defender. Another worry is the number of non-rebounding defenders. The rebounders are good (Deledio, Malceski and Scarlett) but Merrett, Brown and Selwood are a pretty defensive lot. I worry that there are some ordinary kicks coming out of there.

The midfield has a great balance, with Boak and Judd being the extractors, while Dal Santo, Bateman and Vince are very good outside them. Hille I don't really rate as an out and out ruckman (rather someone who does his best work pushing forward as a ruckman) and, since there is no second ruckman picked, I see this as an issue. What does strike me is the lack of depth in the midfield. Sure, there are 5 really good players - but they're it.

The forward line seems to be a very poor balance. Hall, Hansen and Dawes a good enough players by themselves, but having all three is overkill. With three genuine talls (none of whom are really the type that push up the ground), I feel they would be competing for the same balls. Of course then you have Motlop and Petterd, who are both marking medium forwards (who also play close to goal) and are likely to need space to play, which they will not get due to the three key forwards in the forward line. Ballantyne is a good selection for the ultra big forward line because he's a genuine crumber.

If you look at each section in isolation - backs, midfielders and forwards - then it looks a good team. But it looks like they have been selected in isolation. When I game gets played then I would think the side would lack the run. The side would have been so much better without Motlop/Petterd and Dawes, to be replaced by extra midfielders. It looks like a midfield that runs and carries kicking to a congested forward line built for a midfield full of scrappers.

High Tower

I thought selecting Frawley with pick 1 was a mistake. Frawley is exceptional, but there are other players that could have improved his team more. That said, I liked this defence more than any of the others. Why? Because I thought that it had the best mix of players and best structure. Many teams missed out with getting genuine stoppers, and I thought that Carlile and Gwilt were good choices for balance. Bock and Frawley give really good flexibility with their mix of defence and attack and Frawley can play many roles. Mackie and Gibbs are quality attacking defenders, with Gibbs also pushing into the middle. Well balanced.

I think that the forward line has a nice balance, with Pavlich being a quality performer as a number one forward and White able to play as a ruck/forward. I don't think he's a star, but White provides a good role. Other than that, the forwards are all runners. Dangerfield is a strong players who is very capable overhead and can play as a marking medium forward. Banfield is the true crumbing/pressure/defensive forward. Burgoyne and Sidebottom provide good midfield rotations which ranks highly.

The midfield with Cooney, Swallow, Watson, Scully, Cotchin, Burgoyne, Dangerfield and Sidebottom is deep, but may just lack that true top level star power that I like in the midfield. You'd be hoping for big seasons of improvement from Scully and Cotchin. Swallow and Watson are good players, but lack penetration and Cooney is the only player that has proven to cut teams apart (other than Burgoyne, who has injury concerns).

I like the structure but it's just some of the players, midfield especially, that underwhelm me.

E25

Very young team. The side is largely unproven with Cunnington, Toy, Martin and Hartlett not having shown large amounts at AFL level. Maybe you can carry one for a premiership team, but I find it hard to carry three or four - nearly a quarter of the side. Key defenders are solid, yet unspectacular. I worry about the balance between the players and who plays on a genuine monster forward. Reid does well on running types, but can still get rag dolled. Ryder is athletic but can't defend and Morris is a great stopper but undersized (with Lake playing on monsters). There's no genuine shut down small defender and an enormous amount of the rebounding burden will have to fall upon Gram, who is inconsistent and lacks class.

Midfield is good, with Goodes being really important to provide the line breaking. The rest are just good hard workers. Without Goodes I'd have concerns.

I like the small forwards, with Sylvia being a good selection providing flexibility by pushing into the midfield, as does Rioli. Johnson too provides X factor up forward. The talls are uninspiring up forward, with Clark being unproven as a forward and Kennedy lacking class (although a lion hearted worker).

Overall I think the side covers most bases, with small forwards being an obvious strength. This may be a good side in 3 years time, but at the moment it just misses a bit, especially with the defensive mix, defensive runners and all around class.

Deez Nutz

The defence just has to get the ball to ground. The runners are good and Waite and Gilbert are good attacking defenders. It feels like the Bulldogs of a few years ago. Hurley would have to be able to play as a genuine tall defensive defender. But I just don't know what to do about Rance - that's an awful selection.

The forward line is simply misguided. If you are going to play a small forward line without a key forward then you simply need to have smalls that can mark the ball. You were the one that needed Motlop on Petterd rather than Deestroy All, and he needed Hitchcock or Wonaeamirri. Hitchcock and Wonna can't mark - they are true crumbers. But if there are no talls to compete then why do you need crumbers? Ablett is wasted at FF, so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and pretending he's playing midfield.

There are so many things wrong with this team. So many things. Alex Rance. A forward line without even one proper key forward. No proper gorilla defender. It's a midget squad!

But the midfield is Ablett, Swan, Mitchell, Chapman, Cross, Wells, O'Keefe and Chapman. The question is, how many games could you possibly lose with that midfield?

Ox 5

Now this is the balance of squad that I've been wanting to see. Between Tarrant, Taylor and Thomson they have most options covered. I'd like if one of them was more attacking, but I'm OK with it. Gibson is a very good zoning player, and Winderlich and Enright are good rebounders, with Enright also being able to shut down good small forwards.

The forward line is very good with a great mix. Nick pushes up the ground and Jack stays close to home. There's crumbing power, X-factor and a midfielder in Higgins. It has a really good balance to it.

The problem lies in between those two excellent areas. Kerr is good, but is no longer the premium midfielder he was. Black is still good, Barlow is solid and Rischitelli is too. But it really does lack a star midfielder in there somewhere. Warnock is a bit light on compared to the other rucks selected.

If there was even one star midfielder selected in this side then I think it would be my first choice easily. All premiership teams tend to have at least one star midfielder, but I just can't see one here. As it is, I just wonder if it has the power out of the middle to feed their forwards.

Of the others:

Trengove - Question marks over Glass nowadays weighed down the defence. I don't really rate ruckmen, although Tippett was an excellent selection. There was no shut down small defender and, in general, it looked top heavy in defence. I think the forward line looks good for type, and would be a very good one if Patrick was any good. But he was a mature age rookie selection (effectively) who is completely untested and very raw, so a lot of marks get lost for that. The side is solid, but it really does lack star power aside from J Brown and Sandilands (and I don't rate rucks that highly). It looks like a really good consistent middle of the road side, but I think no premiership hope.

eth38 - Great defence .... if you were playing Deez Nutz. Unfortunately it lacks flexibility against those with strong key forwards. A lot of run from defence with Harbrow, Gilbee and Drummond, which I think is really important. I didn't mark the defence down as much as I'm sure others will. Midfield is good enough, with Hodge and Hayes being proven big game performers. Not huge depth, but OK. Forward line is a problem. Nobody really running through the midfield from the forward line (perhaps Fyfe) and I don't rate Byrnes, Gray and Walker as premiership players (at the moment). Overall I just don't think the team had depth and I don't think it had the flexibility needed to win a flag.

Roger Mellie - Solid enough team. The defence has a nice mix, although it does really lack a gorilla defender. Fisher, Chaplin and Rivers are all CHB types but none are really body on body key defenders and could be exposed by genuine key forwards. I do like Newman in the team ad he can shut down and provide drive - good choice. Rich and Krakouer are solid attacking defenders. The forwards have a good mix, with marking smalls, crumbers, high half forwards and a couple of talls. Pods and Roughy are very similar though and I'm not sure they'd work well together. Didak, Le Cras, Murphy and Betts are dangerous though. The midfield did leave me a bit underwhelmed. I think Selwood is a really good player but I just don't find him to be the gamebreaker that everyone else does at the moment. There's a big drop off after Mundy too. I really don't think the midfield is powerful enough to win a flag and I don't think the team distiguishes itself enough from the rest. Good middle of the road team.

The master - The structure of the team is quite good. It lacks a third tall defender and Grima is of suspect quality, but the small defenders offer a really good amount of flexibility. Up forward you have Buddy ..... and that's about it. It has a really good structure to it, with different types of key forward, a resting midfielder and a couple of mid sized forwards who can mark. The midfield has Thompson and Kennedy plus a lot of outsiders. But it's definitely thin for quality. It seems like you've gone for the structure rather than best player. It's certainly a good structure to your team (lack of third tall excepted) but it seems to be at the expense of player quality.

Range Rover - Lake is good at full back, but having Goddard at CHB and not third tall leaves it completely stuffed in defence. Waters, Ibbotson, Salopek and Jackson are good players, but the structure is all wrong because of the lack of a second key defender. Up forward there is a good structure. Unfortunately there is a culture stain in Fevola, a player who hasn't shown anything in Gumbleton and a fruit cake in Brennan. Green is good and offers flexibility with his ability to go into the midfield and be dangerous up forward. But, most of all, the midfield just lacks quality. Bartel, Murphy, Davey .... Jordan Lewis? Anyway, I just thought that there were a few too many flaws in the side that couldn't really be covered up.

Overall:

My assessment of the teams is that they all had flaws in them, but that is really what happens with all teams. The question was how easily can these flaws be covered. The reason why Deestroy All finished highest (and I toyed with all permutations of the first 3) was because I felt that his teams would be able to cover its own flaws the easiest. The forward line is not balanced very well, but it's possible to work that forward line by pushing Hansen (big engine) and Petterd further up the ground and leaving just two key forwards, an X factor forward and a crumber. Whereas there was no way of being able to counter High Tower's lack of top level star power and E25's huge amount of unproven young players.

The further you got down my rankings, then more flaws there were or the greater the flaw. Deez Nutz had a large amount of flexibility simply due to the quality of his midfield. Unfortunately there were so many flaws that it couldn't be considered with the top 3. Ox 5 had a lot of good points and very few flaws in the team. Unfortunately the flaw was really, really big - midfield quality - and simply couldn't be fixed.

It's not easy to differentiate between teams when the quality of the teams is, more or less, pretty much the same!

[e25 5]

Another good detailed analysis.

I get the feeling it will be interesting to revisit this exercise at the end of the 2011 season and see how we all went.

Then we can do one including all the poached Giants...

[titan_uranus 22,827]

Thanks for all the effort t_uranus for the in depth assessment. I agree with your summation on my team, what I tried to achieve when putting my team together was bringing a good strong backline and midfield together, whilst having a strong spine. Strong backline's are essential, so too strong fast midfield with balance. From your summation, you tend to agree. (yet no cigar ~votes )

I told you it was hard to split the teams! You're right, defence for mine is more important, and based on that you should have beaten Ox to the 1 vote, but I kept looking at your forward line and I just couldn't shake the notion that you weren't going to score. It was a lineball call between you and Ox for the last vote.

I like ox_5's side, but I think his forward line is lacking any decent crumbers.

Jurrah probably the best.

Pearce has played forward before. Higgins can play small, especially in that team.

[e25 5]

I told you it was hard to split the teams! You're right, defence for mine is more important, and based on that you should have beaten Ox to the 1 vote, but I kept looking at your forward line and I just couldn't shake the notion that you weren't going to score. It was a lineball call between you and Ox for the last vote.

Pearce has played forward before. Higgins can play small, especially in that team.

They aren't typical crumbing types in my opinion.

[Deestroy All 14,262]

Great effort AOB and TU, appreciate all the judges efforts.

Just a question, did e25 come first on TU's list, or 5th? Forgive me if it's obvious, I'm a little confused.

[titan_uranus 22,827]

Great effort AOB and TU, appreciate all the judges efforts.

Just a question, did e25 come first on TU's list, or 5th? Forgive me if it's obvious, I'm a little confused.

First, and so received 5 votes, the maximum.

[Deestroy All 14,262]

First, and so received 5 votes, the maximum.

Thanks, your efforts are even more appreciated now.

[e25 5]

First, and so received 5 votes, the maximum.

Sweet!

I misread that - I was happy with 5th!

I didn't expect many to agree with my thinking.

[Deestroy All 14,262]

Sweet!

I misread that - I was happy with 5th!

I didn't expect many to agree with my thinking.

They don't, it's just 1!

[e25 5]

They don't, it's just 1!

many = any

[ox_5 163]

Thanks for all the input guys, your analysis is really good.

I was disappointed with my final midfield, with 2 picks not falling my way which I had ready to pounce.

Pendlebury is the big one, with E taking him 1 pick before me. And then Scott Thompson with him going 2 picks before mine. If I had those 2 I would have been extremely pleased with the overall balance.

Like E, I mean, e said, it will be interesting to look at this in a years time and see how the season panned out for the 180 players chosen.

[H_T 2,941]

I've developed a groundbreaking scientific method that allows my ruckman - and every other player - to run all day without any fatigue. So don't worry about my ruck stocks Bob.

Setback for Boak in 2011

Adelaide loses Vince

Not good for DAFC...

Meanwhile over at HT's Highlanders

[Deestroy All 14,262]

Setback for Boak in 2011

Adelaide loses Vince

Not good for DAFC...

Meanwhile over at HT's Highlanders

LOL

I can pretty much guarantee everyone in my team will make a visit to the hospital from now until the end of 2011. The history of players in my Dreamteam, avatar / desktop / fb profile injury list reads like a horror story. I'm a curse, basically.

Let's all hope my captain cops it the worst

[ox_5 163]

LOL

I can pretty much guarantee everyone in my team will make a visit to the hospital from now until the end of 2011. The history of players in my Dreamteam, avatar / desktop / fb profile injury list reads like a horror story. I'm a curse, basically.

Let's all hope my captain cops it the worst

In that case, can you please take Ricky out of your team!

[Deestroy All 14,262]

In that case, can you please take Ricky out of your team!

He already copped it. I was lucky enough to go into the rooms after the Brisbane win at the G, had my little cousin with me and he snapped a cool photo of Ricky heading into the race, I put it as my FB pic... we all know what happened next.

[titan_uranus 22,827]

Looks like a couple of judges have missed the deadline... Tsk Tsk...

[Eth 4]

Looks like a couple of judges have missed the deadline... Tsk Tsk...

By a long way, too.

[Guest Baghdad Bob]

Poor effort to say you'd do it and then not have the courtesy to post particularly given the effort put in by everyone concerned.

I'd suggest that those judges that haven't put in their votes say if they are going to do it or not and if they don't want to then a couple of others could volunteer.

What do you think?

[ox_5 163]

I'm happy for anyone who wants to spend the time to go through all the teams to have a say.

It would take up a bit of time, so if you want to go to that effort, go for it I say.

[MrReims 308]

Poor effort to say you'd do it and then not have the courtesy to post particularly given the effort put in by everyone concerned.

I'd suggest that those judges that haven't put in their votes say if they are going to do it or not and if they don't want to then a couple of others could volunteer.

What do you think?

Sorry kids, poor effort on my part I know. However it is the silly season and I have been working monster hours. Would still like to thro in a consideration after NY if that's acceptable

[H_T 2,941]

Judging:

- Official Panel: Nasher, Mr Reims, Titan Uranus, Whispering Jack, Baghdad Bob, Axis of Bob

- Criteria: Win 2011 flag

- Voting: 5-4-3-2-1 with explanations

- Deadline: midnight Sunday 19/12

Hopefully much correspondence will be entered into.

DA's dreamteam idea is a good one.

Thanks for playing!

As posted I'm off OS on Friday for 3 weeks so I leaver the pie fight to you guys ...

A reminder to the judges who committed to old55 and have not yet judged the Best 18.......time is ticking as they say (the deadline has been and gone) and old55 might have a few pie's to throw himself on his return to those judges who committed.... though have not yet fully committed to old55's thread.

So far AoB, BB, titan_uranus have fully committed.

If my maths is right. He'll be returning this Friday the 7th Jan (perhaps Sat 8th Jan). It would be great if old55 could see the final judging completed for his thread on his return. Don't you think ?