David Hale

[The Albino Warrior 44]

Essendon are interested in Hale according to the HUN.

Now let's see if we can actually win a bidding war this time!

Let's see if we can carefully lose one.

[old55 23,573]

Let's see if we can carefully lose one.

I'll trust the FDs assessment over yours or mine.

[The Albino Warrior 44]

I'll trust the FDs assessment over yours or mine.

You can end every single football related discussion with that comment.

Melbourne's football department has done a very good job over the last few years. I don't know why that should preclude us from giving our views on the merits and value of David Hale.

Edited September 30, 2010 by The Albino Warrior

[e25 5]

Essendon are interested in Hale according to the HUN.

Now let's see if we can actually win a bidding war this time!

I can't see why Essendon would want him.

I think this is a carefully planned rumour circulated by North, in an effort to lift the asking price.

I really don't think there'll be an army of suitors for Hale and I think they've realized that the Suns aren't realistically going to have any interest in him.

It's basically us and that's it.

[Jarka 767]

I'll trust the FDs assessment over yours or mine.

Then why bother posting at all? Hell, might as well shut demonland.com down as there's no need for any discussion at all

[Adam The God 30,259]

Essendon are interested in Hale according to the HUN.

Now let's see if we can actually win a bidding war this time!

All the wars we've lost in the recent years have actually turned out for the best. This might be another one.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Something another mentioned and a element (I think) of Bails strategy isthe makeup of forward structure. He wants the front 50 to play a particular style but just lacks a reiable type who can be that somewhat stay at home forward offering a decent target and marking option.it also forces opposition defences to man up in a manner which better suits our apparent forward tactics. Bails has been sort of frustrated here and so Hale ( rejuvinated with better opportnities at a new club) might just slot in . He's not brilliant but srrounded by Watts Jurrah Petterd etc he might just prove ahandful... I.e. Not cover him with 1st or2nd defender and were already ahead .

Love to know what the FD s thoughts really are

[old55 23,573]

Then why bother posting at all? Hell, might as well shut demonland.com down as there's no need for any discussion at all

I do ask myself that question.

[1858 285]

Half an hour of decent ruckwork and a solid contest in the square.

Role player. There are plenty of 'spud' premiership players out there.

Ok, that sounds reasonable rpfc. I agree with the "role player" description of what we need and I think it is a sound move to try and acquire someone experienced to help Jamar (who can also go forward).

Firstly wrt decent ruckwork if you look at Hales numbers over the last couple of years he is hardly any better than PJ. On paper he should be though. A lot of North supporters regard him as a forward who rucks rather than a ruckman who can go forward and I think his ordinary hitout numbers reflect that mentality. Arguably in his prime and over taken by a 22 yr old.

Secondly wrt being played as a forward. Bash and crash is great, a contest is great but the reality is that this was simply not enough for North this year in a year when Lindsay Thomas was their highest goal scorer and Drew Petrie played just 2 games due to injury - Hale should have shone out in these circumstances yet he averaged a goal and a half per game. The exact rationale we are applying was the exact same process North actually put Hale through and yet they want to offload him. The "role" he played at North was substandard. Unless we have set the bar very low then why will he perform any better at Melbourne?

The contest aspect of his play up forward (which is a crucial component to many arguements I have read so far) is one dimensional. Unless he takes a grab he'll be out of the contest. Hale is a 201cm Michael Newton.

IMO we should target a stock ruckman (not a world beater) and actually get a package that can deliver in 1 area rather than be a hack of all trades and use Jamar more up forward. Even a stock ruckman with a remote amount of talent will deliver just as many goals as Hale (who's main advantage on PJ is height) if given the chance.

As I said earlier, if it was between PJ and Hale then Hale is the better option but that doesn't say much. It is important that we get a reasonable commodity if we trade our 2nd pick (or equivalent player). Now that you have come around to the spud factor how many spud ruckmen are acquired potentially for a 2nd round pick in a strong draft and also on $400k per yr? We can do better than this.

Edited September 30, 2010 by 1858

[Guest hangon007]

Essendon are interested in Hale according to the HUN.

Now let's see if we can actually win a bidding war this time!

Essendon are interested in everyone. Bet that rumour came straight out of North Melbourne telephone box.

Edited September 30, 2010 by hangon007

[rpfc 28,430]

IMO we should target a stock ruckman (not a world beater) and actually get a package that can deliver in 1 area rather than be a hack of all trades and use Jamar more up forward. Even a stock ruckman with a remote amount of talent will deliver just as many goals as Hale (who's main advantage on PJ is height) if given the chance.

He is a 'hack' according to you. I put 'spud' in inverted commas because I don't think he is a spud but wanted to point out that worse players than him have won, or are about to win, Premierships.

And why, when we have an All-Australian ruckman, are we going to make him into a forward who rucks?

It should be the other way around.

We are never going to get a better ruckman than Jamar next week, but we sure as hell can get a better forward than Johnson/Newton/Spencer et al.

As I said earlier, if it was between PJ and Hale then Hale is the better option but that doesn't say much. It is important that we get a reasonable commodity if we trade our 2nd pick (or equivalent player). Now that you have come around to the spud factor how many spud ruckmen are acquired potentially for a 2nd round pick in a strong draft and also on $400k per yr? We can do better than this.

As I said, I put spud in inverted commas. I don't think he is this 'eloquent' word.

And I want Jesse White, but a club cannot live by what it wants and accept nothing as the alternative. We have to work with the system to get the best outcome for the MFC. And at the moment it looks to be Hale.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Well versed there rpfc. Jamar has had to carry too much the role of the Ruck this year. Our experiments to date in releaving him have been marginal at best. We don't necessarily need thesecond ruck to emulateRussian just provide the contest and win what you can . I.e don't allow the opposition a free ride when Jamars rested. Russian resting up the sharp end is all but luxurious for us as he does present and can play that role .. Just he's better as our Ruck

front end experiments:

Newton 5/10 > fail

Bate 7/10 occasional pass with little to enthuse , better elsewhere on field

PJ 5/10 on a good day > fail

Green 6/10 as ff 9/10 elsewhere .. Wasted at ff

others ... Didn't really pan out

if we had a missing link it's at FF . Our potency isn't so much determined by the FF but a halfway decent one allows the forward arc to function fluidly. I'm certainly not deterred should the club feel Hale has that potential .

[1858 285]

And why, when we have an All-Australian ruckman, are we going to make him into a forward who rucks?

It should be the other way around.

In that case Hale should be a better forward option to facilitate this.

Jamar won't be an AA ruck for ever. IMO he is just as good if not a better forward option than what Hale would be and I said use him "more" up forward not predominantly up forward (ie a forward who rucks). If we obtained a stock ruckman with even the remote amount of ability I can't see why they couldn't return us at least a goal and a half per game ala Hale this year. A 50/50 rotation with Jamar could be ideal, would reduce injury risk significantly and perhaps keep him fresher longer over his career. Ironically the setup at North with McIntosh and Goldstein seems to be in the direction of a 50/50 setup.

We are never going to get a better ruckman than Jamar next week, but we sure as hell can get a better forward than Johnson/Newton/Spencer et al.

Hang on, what happned to the doesn't have to be a world beater mentality? In the case of Hale it is ok if he plays a role (ie a goal and a half per game) but if we acquire a ruckman they have to be better than Jamar all of a sudden? Lets keep it simple. What I'm proposing is that I haven't seen Hale produce anything up forward this year that suggests he is a better forward option than a stock ruckman in a rotation (before you mention PJ he isn't even a stock ruckman). People just can't get it in their heads that he was tried at North for this exact role and was not up to it. At least with a stock ruckman they can ruck. People use the arguement what if Jamar gets injured (which is a valid concern) I can tell you Hale won't save us but a more competent stock ruckman may.

We have to work with the system to get the best outcome for the MFC. And at the moment it looks to be Hale.

This is the thing, if we pay over the odds then that is aruguably not the best outcome. Sadly best does not always equate to adequate. As we have previously agreed price will be the issue here both in what we trade and the salary of the said player.

[The O 39]

Their seems to be too much focus on Hale's negatives. (Yes he's considered a 3rd or 4th ruckmen at North, but so what?)

Fact is he is not a No 1 ruckman capable of playing an entire game in the ruck (as Jamar, McIntosh and Goldstein are all able).

All 3 mentioned above, I would consider as dedicated ruckmen, not a ruckmen/forward (although it's arguable they could do this).

He's after an opportunity to get more time in the ruck (which complements what we appear to need at present, and allows Jamar given a 'rest' up forward)

Hale was North's leading goal kicker in 2008, and is capable of being a regular scoreboard contributor with 1 or 2 goals each week.

He's 26 and after a new club. Whilst a little older than most supporters desire, we need experience (particularly in the ruck to assist with Gawn, Spencer and Fitz's development).

Finally, we see it all the time, all a player often needs is new enviroment to blossom.

Edited September 30, 2010 by The O

[The Albino Warrior 44]

Lets keep it simple. What I'm proposing is that I haven't seen Hale produce anything up forward this year that suggests he is a better forward option than a stock ruckman in a rotation...

This is the thing, if we pay over the odds then that is aruguably not the best outcome. Sadly best does not always equate to adequate. As we have previously agreed price will be the issue here both in what we trade and the salary of the said player.

Well said.

Hale had a massive opportunity to make his mark thanks to Petrie's injuries. He didn't take that opportunity.

Even in his "break out" year he managed just 37 goals and averaged 8 hitouts.

He'd want to come at a bargain trade and salary price.

[beelzebub 23,376]

That last bit rings somewhat loudly inthis instance . He's gone stale at Nth . I'd say in the vernacular he's a bit p!ssed off there. this then will impose (mentally) constraints that reflects onthe field.

So the Stale Dale at nth might become Rave Dave at Dees ..might ..

Will be interesting to see how indeed this pans out

[1858 285]

Their seems to be too much focus on Hale's negatives. (Yes he's considered a 3rd or 4th ruckmen at North, but so what?)

Given what we could potentially be offering up to get him and the $ he will be on why shouldn't he be put under the microscope? I'm all for improving our list and obviously we don't need the best players to do this but there is still such a thing as over rating a player (at least in context of a potential trade). I don't think I have seen anyone argue that he isn't an improvement on PJ.

He's after an opportunity to get more time in the ruck (which complements what we appear to need at present, and allows Jamar given a 'rest' up forward)

He's actually after more time in the seniors let alone the ruck and his "forward pro-ess" hasn't been good enough to ensure that in a year where he had the perfect platform to produce.

Hale was North's leading goal kicker in 2008, and is capable of being a regular scoreboard contributor with 1 or 2 goals each week.

That was then this is now. If he was in '08 form he wouldn't be on the table. 1 or 2 goals has been my point, a stock ruckman can deliver that.

He's 26 and after a new club. Whilst a little older than most supporters desire, we need experience (particularly in the ruck to assist with Gawn, Spencer and Fitz's development).

No arguement with the experience factor.

Finally, we see it all the time, all a player often needs is new enviroment to blossom.

For sure, but this applies to any player we acquire in theory, attributes come first.

Ultimately if we take on Hale I won't automatically condemn the decision as he would add incremental improvement to our list. If we overpay (which IMO is on the cards) then I'll be severely disappointed though as it isn't necessary for what he brings.

[jayceebee31 761]

In the words of John McEnroe "You cannot be serious!"

Laycock is one of the softest, most injury-prone and incompetent spuds in the AFL. I don't even know a single Essendon supporter that rates him.

As I said it is a punt- if we could not get Hale- I think he could turn out to be a very good draft pick-as good as Leigh Brown has turned out at Collingwood.I realise he is injury prone but worth a punt in my opinion IF the cards don't fall for Hale.And furthermore, I'd like us to retain Warnock.

Edited September 30, 2010 by jayceebee31

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

Yep, the issue of Hale and the issue of ruck depth for Jamar/Spencer are separate. I'd be looking at Hale as a Koschitzke style forward. I like the idea of getting a mature ruckman as a cheap rookie entirely as a back up for Jamar and Spencer - effectively taking the place of Paul Johnson.

Given that he is contracted to North, I'd assume that we'd be looking at paying our pick 31 at least. I don't know if there's a player swap that they would be keen on.

You lost me.

[rpfc 28,430]

Well said.

Hale had a massive opportunity to make his mark thanks to Petrie's injuries. He didn't take that opportunity.

Even in his "break out" year he managed just 37 goals and averaged 8 hitouts.

He'd want to come at a bargain trade and salary price.

37 goals and 8 hitouts a game would be pretty bloody valuable to us from a forward who rucks.

Let's see what deal the FD can do.

[Grandson of a gun 276]

As i mentioned in another topic, i am slowly coming around on this idea if we can secure him in a trade along the lines of a direct swap for Maric or Maric and a late pick.

Theoretically, if we do get him it will be as a forward who pinch hits in the ruck so Jamar can rest.

He only needs to kick 25-35 goals to be effective.

Moreso, it is the overall balance in the forward line that he might help with.

Consider that if Hale is the full forward, his height alone commands one of the better tall defenders and if he kicks a couple of goals every game, he may start to command the best defender. This means that in turn Watts, Jurrah, Green, Petterd get the 2nd, 3rd, 4th defenders and can start to run riot.

As i said, i am coming around on the idea more as a team balance and development factor than anything else as long as the price isn't too much to pay to get him.

[Demon Disciple 12,126]

As i mentioned in another topic, i am slowly coming around on this idea if we can secure him in a trade along the lines of a direct swap for Maric or Maric and a late pick.

Have to agree with you. If it were for Maric and a latish pick, that would be good for us. We have the likes of Wonaeamirri, Bennell, Jetta and Maric all vying for the small forward role (Petterd easily has Maric covered in terms of a HFF, and Davey when he plays there). If we are able to swap an excess player for one that can fill 2 needs, it would be a win for us (no matter how bad people think Hale is).

[Jarka 767]

37 goals and 8 hitouts a game would be pretty bloody valuable to us from a forward who rucks.

Let's see what deal the FD can do.

He has kicked 37 goals in a season only once in his career. He has kicked more than 20 goals only twice, the other being 22.

Why do supporters think that a player will immediately have a career best performance at a new club? The reality is that he probably won't get anywhere near his career best stats, this puts him on a par with Brad Miller.

[rpfc 28,430]

He has kicked 37 goals in a season only once in his career. He has kicked more than 20 goals only twice, the other being 22.

Why do supporters think that a player will immediately have a career best performance at a new club? The reality is that he probably won't get anywhere near his career best stats, this puts him on a par with Brad Miller.

Do you really think that I think he is going to come straight into our forward line and do that?

That was a reply to an equally flippant post about Hale's limitations.

Jurrah, Watts, Green, Petterd, and Wonaeamirri don't need another star in the forward line with them.

What they need is someone to take the responsibility off of them to force an aerial contest. I don't want Brian Harris knees constantly going into Jurrah and Watts.

Frankly, I think that a goal a game from both ruckmen and Jamar given a break with an adequate replacement is all I see occuring. But I think it would be an improvement that will reverberate around the ground.

Hale isn't great.

But neither is Leigh Brown.

[Jarka 767]

Do you really think that I think he is going to come straight into our forward line and do that?

That was a reply to an equally flippant post about Hale's limitations.

Jurrah, Watts, Green, Petterd, and Wonaeamirri don't need another star in the forward line with them.

What they need is someone to take the responsibility off of them to force an aerial contest. I don't want Brian Harris knees constantly going into Jurrah and Watts.

Frankly, I think that a goal a game from both ruckmen and Jamar given a break with an adequate replacement is all I see occuring. But I think it would be an improvement that will reverberate around the ground.

Hale isn't great.

But neither is Leigh Brown.

Hale and Brown are two completely different players, Hale is a log and towards the end of this season was a liability in the North forward line. Brown has the agility over Hale to perform the role you're talking about.

If you want another player to take over PJ's and Miller's dominance at Casey then Hale is the man for the job.