To say we shouldn't be expecting them to play before their mid-20s...

I'll just throw out a fee names off the top of my head:

Jackson Trengove? Kreuzer? Renouf? Jacobs? Hampson? Tippett? McEvoy? Jordon Roughead? Zac Clarke? Vickery? Naitanui?

Few of them are top line ruckmen, but you wouldn't be expectig that from Jamar's backup.

Thanks for proving my point. I never said that ruckman shouldn't play before mid 20s, rather they can't expect to be competitive against premier ruckman before mid 20s.

How would those guys go as the main ruckman against Jamar or SandilandS?

Can McKenzie remain on the rookie list for 1 more year?

Under the rules he could. But we had to convince him to turn down an offer to join the senior list at Adelaide after last season (presumably) with the promise that he would be rewarded with a promotion to our senior list at the end of this year.

Frankly, quite a spectacular piece of player/list management from Harrington/Connolly/Bailey which allowed us to retain a very talented and valuable piece of the midfield puzzle as well as acquire both Fitzpatrick & Macdonald (rather than just one of them).

Jordie is being elevated to the senior list this year, you can take that as read.

Under the rules he could. But we had to convince him to turn down an offer to join the senior list at Adelaide after last season (presumably) with the promise that he would be rewarded with a promotion to our senior list at the end of this year.

Frankly, quite a spectacular piece of player/list management from Harrington/Connolly/Bailey which allowed us to retain a very talented and valuable piece of the midfield puzzle as well as acquire both Fitzpatrick & Macdonald (rather than just one of them).

Jordie is being elevated to the senior list this year, you can take that as read.

For sure, I expect him to be elevated.

Just procrastinating from study and the mind wondered off a little. I was entertaining the idea that if Bruce went to GC and McDonald retired it would mean that we would be able to nominate a rookie for senior football for the entire year due to only having 1 veteran (and we would also have 7 rookies). McKenzie could be that full time nominated rookie whilst giving us space on the senior list for another ND pick. The obvious obstacle is the commitment the club made to him and the salary issue as he'd be a regular starter you'd think next year. Don't mind me, just thinking out loud.

Jordie is being elevated to the senior list this year, you can take that as read.

Yep. You wouldn't want to rely on LTI's to have him playing and he has more than earnt the extra coin that will be coming his way.

Funnily I was just looking at his stats on the MFC web site and his tackles so far are 116 to Jnrs 97 and then Beamer on 85 (IIRC).

If we didn't promote him then I could only assume that the guys in charge were drunk when the decision was made.

Thanks for proving my point. I never said that ruckman shouldn't play before mid 20s, rather they can't expect to be competitive against premier ruckman before mid 20s.

How would those guys go as the main ruckman against Jamar or SandilandS?

How would PJ go? Would he be any better?

That is my point, which you continue to miss.

We are no better off with Johnson and since he isn't up to it, we may as well move him on and bring in someone who could be up to it.

Pretty simple really.

How would PJ go? Would he be any better?

That is my point, which you continue to miss.

We are no better off with Johnson and since he isn't up to it, we may as well move him on and bring in someone who could be up to it.

Pretty simple really.

Fair enough. i can understand that you don't rate PJ.

I don't really rate him easier, but i acknowledge that he's been pretty decent in recent weeks and if Jamar went down would be so far and away our best option it isn't even funny.

See, I don't agree.

I don't think he gives us anything we don't get from Martin and while Spencer is currently useless around the ground, he is much better Ina ruck contest.

Gawn and Fitzpatrick for next season are unknowns at this stage.

See, I don't agree.

I don't think he gives us anything we don't get from Martin and while Spencer is currently useless around the ground, he is much better Ina ruck contest.

Gawn and Fitzpatrick for next season are unknowns at this stage.

agree to disagree.

One thing we both agree on is that we'd be in quite a bit of strife if Jamar went down.

If I were in charge of the list i'd be looking to target Sam Jacobs from the blues big time. He's a good tap ruckman, actually pretty good around the ground. He's currently 4th ruckman at Blues with Warnock, Kruiser and Hampson in front of him. I think a second round pick (around pick 34) should get the deal done.

The '2nd ruckman' spot is a big worry atm

agree to disagree.

One thing we both agree on is that we'd be in quite a bit of strife if Jamar went down.

If I were in charge of the list i'd be looking to target Sam Jacobs from the blues big time. He's a good tap ruckman, actually pretty good around the ground. He's currently 4th ruckman at Blues with Warnock, Kruiser and Hampson in front of him. I think a second round pick (around pick 34) should get the deal done.

The '2nd ruckman' spot is a big worry atm

Sam Jacobs was reportedly beaten (or at the very least matched) by Jack Fitzpatrick last weekend. Is that a bit of 'grass is greener' syndrome creeping in??

The way I see it, the best way to "fast track" any/all of our young and promising ruckmen is to get AFL gametime into them as a #2 ruck before we have to rely upon them to carry a #1 load. The best way to achieve that is playing them alongside Jamar so in the event he goes down and they have the be "the man" it's not completely new to them.

Sam Jacobs was reportedly beaten (or at the very least matched) by Jack Fitzpatrick last weekend. Is that a bit of 'grass is greener' syndrome creeping in??

The way I see it, the best way to "fast track" any/all of our young and promising ruckmen is to get AFL gametime into them as a #2 ruck before we have to rely upon them to carry a #1 load. The best way to achieve that is playing them alongside Jamar so in the event he goes down and they have the be "the man" it's not completely new to them.

I was just about to add that ID. Fitzy was probably break even with Jacobs.

He is only 19 though and I can see the reasons why a call to bring in a Jacobs has merit. I really like the sound of a Fitzy/Russian, ruck/forward combo.

I was just about to add that ID. Fitzy was probably break even with Jacobs.

He is only 19 though and I can see the reasons why a call to bring in a Jacobs has merit. I really like the sound of a Fitzy/Russian, ruck/forward combo.

I have seen him a few times this year for Casey and I think he has a future.

For a young ruckman he is a fairly good mark and kick.

I saw him the day Casey got belted by Williamstown and he was one of the few that I thought earned his spot.

Early Days but he is the best of our ruckman after Jamar.

I have not seen another young ruckman at VFL level that is better than him.

I was just about to add that ID. Fitzy was probably break even with Jacobs.

He is only 19 though and I can see the reasons why a call to bring in a Jacobs has merit. I really like the sound of a Fitzy/Russian, ruck/forward combo.

I think it is highly unlikely that we would consider spending draft picks/players on bringing across a 22yr old ruckman who is currently 4th in line at his own club to 'cover for' our own crop of 20-22yr old ruckmen.

These kids need games and they need to be given as much responsibility as practical in those games. Which is to say, if there is a need for a ruckman to play a bit-part role in the AFL as a #2 ruckman, they need those opportunities for their development. In the weeks this isn't necessary, they need to be shouldering the load as the #1 ruckman (or at least in a tandem set-up) at VFL level.

what is the deal with the latest MFC player to leave for GC17 re Jones? is there any substance to this? I must admit i have been really picky towards his performance this year, only because I know he is such a 'hard nut' player that just goes in 'guns a blazin', and we all know how good he can & will be. It would be terrible to lose a hard player like him...

Should this be thrown into the Petterd & Bruce basket??? they were supposedly leaving to GC17...

BTW, my prediction on them in 2011 is either bottom 4 or just make it to 13.... they are a nothing side in the VFL...

Tasmania should have been the new side. NOT GS or GWS.

Senior Listed

1: Daniel Bell

Turns 25 early next year. During this years NAB Cup looked to be about to have a good year.

That was 'til the shoulder reco, I think that really killed any chance he had to be retained.

2:Brad Miller

Gave it his best shot,but his best just wasnt enough.

Wish every player had his endeavour.

Rookies:

1: John Meeson

Due to injury was lucky to have survived as long as he has.

2:Michael Newton

Turns 23 next year,has been on the list for 5 years,really hasnt done enough.

We have only seen glimpses of his best. But should make way and free up a place

on the rookie list.

Players that should come under review.

1:Kyle Cheney

A good backup for back pocket small. Needs to keep improving.

2:Addam Maric

Played well in his only game this year. I thought did enough to get another game.

But wouldnt be surprised if they cut him.

3: Paul Johnson

Probably will be retained. If he can stay fit,he may just step up another notch.

For now, a handy depth player.

4:Rhys Healey

Still only 20,hasnt had much luck so far.

5: Daniel Hughes

Another hard luck story due to injuries.Been around a long time.

5: Jake Spencer

Queensland lad. With Jamar fit and firing, Gawn earmarked as the next best thing.

Along with Fitzpatrick pinch hitting in the ruck and forward in the near future,

I wouldnt be surprised to see him return home.

With the draft this year, I am willing to hold on to the others on the current list.

All are young,and have time on their side. We have put time into these players.

If we cut most of them,we start from scratch,may end up down the same path.

All good sides need depth players, we have a few that have been in and out of the

team. Some need more that 2 -3 years to show what they have.

Career Pending:

Junior , I hope it's his call,but wouldnt be surprised to he decided to hang up the boots.

But deep down, I think he will go around next year,

Cam Bruce, same as Junior.

what is the deal with the latest MFC player to leave for GC17 re Jones? is there any substance to this? I must admit i have been really picky towards his performance this year, only because I know he is such a 'hard nut' player that just goes in 'guns a blazin', and we all know how good he can & will be. It would be terrible to lose a hard player like him...

Should this be thrown into the Petterd & Bruce basket??? they were supposedly leaving to GC17...

BTW, my prediction on them in 2011 is either bottom 4 or just make it to 13.... they are a nothing side in the VFL...

Tasmania should have been the new side. NOT GS or GWS.

You know what Sturmmann I do not think any one has any idea if GS has approached any Melbourne Player.

It is all just fanatsy, there may well have been approaches to a couple of players but only the managers would know

and no manager worth his salt would be letting on at this stage.

Find it very hard to believe they would be interested in Cameron Bruce he is in the twilight of his career!

But how would I or anyone else know!

Just wait a month and we will know.

You know what Sturmmann I do not think any one has any idea if GS has approached any Melbourne Player.

It is all just fanatsy, there may well have been approaches to a couple of players but only the managers would know

and no manager worth his salt would be letting on at this stage.

Find it very hard to believe they would be interested in Cameron Bruce he is in the twilight of his career!

But how would I or anyone else know!

Just wait a month and we will know.

We won't have to wait even that long I wouldn't have thought. In 2 weeks time once half the comp is recovering from Mad Monday and preparing for B&F nights the dominoes will start to drop.

Having said that, there's only expected to be 8 'poachings'. We've already had 1 and surely they won't all come from Bottom 8 teams so we may only get 3 or 4 more in a couple of weeks time and the others will be announced as their teams drop out of September.

GC is naturally a complete and utter unknown in terms of our little discussion here, so for the sake of the exercise I find it better to omit it. We know there has to be delistings, but GC poaching and trading is entirely reliant on third parties so not as realistic to propose in this context.

PJ. I'd rather we play kids in the ruck next year than him.

not sure how good this is but have been told he will give it away !

We know that Johnson isn't going to be a good enough ruckman to lead the side. Jamar could always ruck, but struggled to get around the ground well enough, but improved that recently.

With the game moving as quickly as it is now, I think a ruckman's ability around the ground is actually less important. A ruckman getting the ball in open space now doesn't have as much time and is probably just going to slow the play down - a killer in the modern game. Look at the ruckmen that are currently dominating the game: Sandilands, Jamar, Hudson. These guys are not quick, mobile ruckmen but rather are the man mountain types. What makes them so valuable is their ability to affect contests and stoppages. That's a place where it is so important to be able to control because they can bring about scoring opportunities.

Unfortunately Johnson plays like an outside midfielder and doesn't affect contests. He's poor in the rucking area, despite being reasonably competent at getting into space.

Spencer is tall, gangly and looks like a bit of a spaz. But I think that really does cloud a lot of views about his effectiveness and his potential for the future. I did a post after the St Kilda game, so I'll take some info from that post about Spencer.

"Spencer works hard around the stoppages and is actually very good in ruck contests, which is unusual this early in a project ruckman's career.

Look at Darren Jolly, the poster boy for aggressive tap ruckmen, in his first games and see how effective he was in the ruck. He played 22 games in his first 2 years, averaging 5.2 hitouts per game. Jake is younger than Jolly at that point is his career and is averaging 11.4 hitouts per game, include games of 16, 20 and 17 (this weekend) hitouts, all of which were better that any of Jolly's first 22 games.

As for disposals, it wasn't until 2008 that Jolly averaged more than 10 disposals a game. Spencer averages 6.9 at the moment, which isn't too bad for a player of his style at this stage of his career and his age."

Interestingly, in that St Kilda game he had 17 hitouts while Gardiner and McEvoy had 15 and 14 respectively. Jamar had 28. The most that Johnson has had in any game this year is 14.

Spencer has spent 3 years on the rookie list and, if we want to keep him, we have to promote him at season's end. I have no doubt we'll promote him.

3. Try to stick to the unofficial, uncontracted player list which has circulated in other threads. I have copied it here for reference. If you insist on delisting a contracted player you should have a good explanation for why the Club would take such a risk with the trust of the playing group.

Warnock, Bruce, Jones, Watts, Bate, Miller, Johnson, Bell, Moloney, McDonald, Bail, Blease, Strauss, McNamara.

Assuming this is correct - I wonder if we could consider a "Lauchlan Veale" type deal and expose a player to GC suns that we many or many not be not all that happy to lose. However, to facilitate a deal sweetened by exchanging draft picks backwards to secure an early draft pick ie 1 of picks 5,7 or 9. Baring in mind all the good judges are saying there should be plenty quality talls early in this draft.

Just as an example -

We allow player x to go. We exchange our 2nd,3rd & 4th round picks for 1 Gold Cost pick either picks 5,7 or 9

We retain our first round pick & their early pick. We also get a pick from the compensation rule that we then "warehouse". We use our last two picks to upgrade McKenzie & possibly Spencer.

Now assuming GC are true to their word and are only going to target "8-10 un-contracted players" this would imply they are going to heavily rely on the draft. Here is a golden opportunity for them to secure a host of draft picks prior to the 6th round.

I wonder or I'm I smoking drugs?

Senior List

In: McKenzie (rookie promotion), Spencer (rookie promotion), ND pick 16, ND pick 33, ND pick 50

Out: Bell (delist), Miller (delist), Johnson (delist), McNamara (delist), Green (veteran status)

Veterans' List

In: Green

Out: McDonald (retire)

Rookie List

In: Six picks in Rookie Draft

Out: McKenzie (rookie promotion), Spencer (rookie promotion), Healey (delist), Hughes (delist), Meesen (delist), Newton (delist)

Senior List

In: McKenzie (rookie promotion), Spencer (rookie promotion), ND pick 16, ND pick 33, ND pick 50

Out: Bell (delist), Miller (delist), Johnson (delist), McNamara (delist), Green (veteran status)

Veterans' List

In: Green

Out: McDonald (retire)

Rookie List

In: Six picks in Rookie Draft

Out: McKenzie (rookie promotion), Spencer (rookie promotion), Healey (delist), Hughes (delist), Meesen (delist), Newton (delist)

I agree with most of this. I am still inclined to keep Johnson as insurance because Spencer, Gawn and Fitzpatrick are all still a way off being good enough for senior level. The retirement of Bruce would allow Johnson to stay. It will be very interesting to see which way the FD lean.

...

Newton should be kept -

I am still inclined to keep Johnson as insurance because Spencer, Gawn and Fitzpatrick are all still a way off being good enough for senior level.

Oh but no no no!! Have you seen how many people are calling for Fitzy to be included for the Port match over at AAMI Stadium this weekend???

List Management: Debut a raw ruckman... in Adelaide... at the Dees' worst-performing ground..... yeh right.

Junior will play on,he's in our best 10 and we need his experience in finals next year.If this was his last year his farewell game would be round 22 at the G,do you really think a player of Junior's calibre/class wouldn't be farewelled by Melbourne on the G for all of us to say thanks & goodbye.

You've got to be kidding me!!!

Bye bye Miller,Martin,Bell.

PJ definately plays next year.Russian does his knee in round 14,who steps in and takes on Ottens,Gardner,Jolly et al? Gawn,Meeson,Spencer,Fitzpatrick,Sylvia?

Give me a spell!!!

Bye bye Miller,Martin,Bell.

Question: Based on 2010... what has Stef Martin done to deserve delisting?

What happens with Healey, Hughes, Macnamara, Meesen, Newton, Miller...?? Surely they are ahead of Martin in being delisted??

I'm waiting for Martin to be fully fit in 2011 so he can really show us what he's got!! He has talent galore so could be a gem. He is only 20 years old... :/