foot skills

[Freak 100]

some good young players that the only reason this list won't take us to a flag will be purely because of a lack of players with good foot skills.

I want to make one thing clear however. Poor foot skills includes the actual decision made. Turning it over by foot might not be because they are a bad kick but because they lack decision making or have poor vision etc.

I still think we need to try and recruit players with elite foot skills. Strauss, Blease and Maric were those players but you can't bet your house on any of them making it just yet.

NOTE: this is just my opinion but in many cases my theory is backed up by draft profiles etc that list their weaknesses. I know there are very mixed opinions on certain players but here we go.

Here is a look at a core of the list:

A+

Davey- Elite but maybe he will be playing forward pocket during our premiership window.

Moloney - Sometimes criticised for being too predictable and always going long but he is an elite kick and breaks up the play with it

Sylvia- long and accurate. More accurate when kicking long.

Green- Not quite as good a kick as he was 5 years ago but still near elite. Will he be playing in 3-4 years when we are in our absolute prime?

A

Trengove- Kicking is great for a first year player.

Scully- Criticized by a few people for the penetration on his kicks but I still feel very comfortable with ball in his hands.

Wonaeamirri - Very accurate kick for goal. Priceless these days.

Jurrah - Probably more accurate across his body then a normal drop punt but he doesn't get acknowledged enough for being a good kick

B+

Bennell - gets the job done and has kicked some great goals but his ball drop is too uneven to rate him any higher.

Lynden Dunn - Unfairly criticized. Personally don't think he should have been dropped after the bulldogs game. Kicked a goal that was overruled as being touched (incorrectly in my opinion) and almost kicked a good banana before that. He is a very accurate kick for goal but is sadly being coached out of his career. Needs to be forward.

Petterd - kicks a few wobblers but they generally seem to go straight. Almost certain he is off to the gold coast though.

Watts - has a pretty good kick. he doesn't guide the ball enough onto his boot though and there is too much 'airtime' between when he lets go of the ball to when it hits his boot. That said, he can kick on both feet and is a long kick of the ball.

James.Mcdonald - won't be there during our premiership window.

B

Bate: He would be 'A' if he had time and space but he rarely does. He is a beautiful long kick when he has time but he has no right and often has to swing around onto his left and gets caught out. Especially because he has a horrible turning circle.

Morton: People would be lying if they said that they weren't expecting more when he first came to the club. Kicks it into the mark alot and kicks off one step unnecessarily too often. That said, he is a good long field kick as well as for goal.

N.Jetta- Is playing great footy at the moment but just needs to be given permission to bump more often and become a real sniper. He has campbell brown like timing and its something we haven't really seen yet but I think all teams needs someone to get the blood pumping

Jones - ALmost got a B+ as he has improved alot. He is slowly learning that when he can't see an option then just kick it long. He now does this more often.

C+

Garland: behind Morton, he also kicks it in the man on the mark a lot. A silly sin that really shows a lack of common sense. Have never been a fan and still aren't.

Bruce: Unfairly criticized as a player, I believe he should be in our Best 22 but his kicking has dropped off majorly in the last 3 years.

Rivers: Has dropped a few grades in my opinion mostly because he looks a little lazy. That said, I still feel comfortable with the ball in his hands so could be pushing B grade.

Grimes: This might cause a bit of a stir up but my heart is in my mouth every time he has it. When in doubt he kicks short to a 50/50 contest and it has cost us goal after goal in match after match. This might be a strange and picky thing also but he seems to kick it unnecessarily hard and has unrealistic expectations of our forwards. That said, his overhead marking and one on one contested football is something he deserves praise over but certainly not his kicking at this stage.

[pitchfork 181]

Interesting thread

Missed Chips penetrating inside 50's

Wrong on Grimes...nature of his role - providing our runners and target forwards improve I have no doubt he'll only be more effective

Generous on McDonald, Moloney Dunn

One thing...I don't think you've valued kicking on the wrong side enough...a number of our player are pretty much shut down when they're pushed onto the wrong side - These guys with the exception of Davey don't yet have the poise to overcome this like James Hird did for years

Good on the wrong foot: Scully, Trengove, sometime Grimes, Sylvia (Any others?)

Edited May 30, 2010 by pitchfork

[The Big Ticket 94]

Fairly accurate assessment imo

Garland is definitely B, pushing B+. Some of his long kicks out of defence this year have been superb.

Moloney is too high. I'd put him under B. Still just bombs away a lot.

[The Big Ticket 94]

Good on the wrong foot: Scully, Trengove, sometime Grimes, Sylvia (Any others?)

Watts has a very good wrong side.

[sylvinator 96]

You may have been trying to make a stir with the call on Grimes... but that's only because it is completely wrong!

Grimes is a good kick and has very good decision making.

The only reason why he sometimes is perceived to have a poor kick is because he gets most of his kicks deep in defence, under immense pressure, where any mistake is going to be highlighted because it costs a goal.

I play defence for my soccer team and it is the same way. Defenders makes a mistake= goal to the opposition. forwards make a mistake= turn it over in a non-dangerous position. Therefore, any mistake a defender makes is remembered, while midfielders and forwards make countless turnovers and it is more forgiven.

Grimes has probably hit more targets this season than any other player in our team! I definitely feel same with the ball in his hand. He's 19 y.o. He will make some mistakes. But that doesn't make him a C+ kick.

Rediculous call.

[Freak 100]

You may have been trying to make a stir with the call on Grimes... but that's only because it is completely wrong!

Grimes is a good kick and has very good decision making.

The only reason why he sometimes is perceived to have a poor kick is because he gets most of his kicks deep in defence, under immense pressure, where any mistake is going to be highlighted because it costs a goal.

I play defence for my soccer team and it is the same way. Defenders makes a mistake= goal to the opposition. forwards make a mistake= turn it over in a non-dangerous position. Therefore, any mistake a defender makes is remembered, while midfielders and forwards make countless turnovers and it is more forgiven.

Grimes has probably hit more targets this season than any other player in our team! I definitely feel same with the ball in his hand. He's 19 y.o. He will make some mistakes. But that doesn't make him a C+ kick.

Rediculous call.

I take your point but I'd much prefer Frawley to have the ball deep in defence then Grimes. Frawley has grasped the idea of kicking it long when unsure, Grimes hasn't. I've got no particular reason for disliking Grimes, but going short to a 50/50 contest in your defensive 50m is insane and he does is too much at this stage. I just wished we had someone like Hurn kicking in.

Also if you look at some of the best kicks in the league: Didak, Hunt, Green, Rich, Hodge, Drummond, Ryan O keefe and Lloyd and Lucas in their days rarely use their opposite feet. That said, I'm willing to concede that left footers are generally more accurate kicks but on the flip side have horrible opposites.

Anyway question is; what sort of player do we target during trade week and what sort of player do we pick up at the draft? Are foot skills still a priority?

Edited May 30, 2010 by Freak

[rpfc 28,779]

Not going to bite on this one, Grimes is a very good kick.

And one of the best 22 gamers going around.

Maybe you should find another dead horse to [censored], Freak. Hmmm?

[RalphiusMaximus 6,088]

I can't believe nobody has called you yet on rating Scully so highly. I guess that means it falls to me.

Scully- Criticized by a few people for the penetration on his kicks but I still feel very comfortable with ball in his hands.

It's not penetration that is the issue with Scully kicking. He can kick a good long ball, as was shown by that great goal he kicked from 50 a few weeks ago. When he has no time at all he never misses, but if he has found his way into space he seems to either pick out an opponent or kick it to a 50/50. It's almost as if he's better off when he doesn't have time to use his brain. He is also prone to the old fashioned "up-and-under" when a better kick would be using a lower trajectory to make sure the pass reaches it's target as quickly as possible. This is something that I noted as a concern from his highlight reals last year and his play so far has done nothing to reassure me.

So no, Scully is not an A grade kick. He is elite in his hand skills and his running, his defensive abilities are average and his kicking is ok. I am hoping that with his proven work ethic the deficiencies in his game will be rectified in the next few years, but at the moment that is where he stands.

[Keyser Söze 0]

hahahaha always good for a laugh freak.

Does being 192cm affect your kicking..?

[H_T 3,049]

Not going to bite on this one, Grimes is a very good kick.

And one of the best 22 gamers going around.

Maybe you should find another dead horse to [censored], Freak. Hmmm?

The 192cm players were rated highly.

[Keyser Söze 0]

The 192cm players were rated highly.

beat you to it!

[H_T 3,049]

beat you to it!

Haha. It was only a matter of time. Surprised Frawley didn't rate a mention. Must be a D-.....

[Keyser Söze 0]

Haha. It was only a matter of time. Surprised Frawley didn't rate a mention. Must be a D-.....

Wait - how tall is he again..?

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

I can't believe nobody has called you yet on rating Scully so highly. I guess that means it falls to me.

FWIW Garry Ablett rated him very highly in the HUN today (Sunday).

Ablett on kicking

Edited May 30, 2010 by Rojik of the Arctic

[Swampfox 190]

The list should include the whole list not just a few players

The subject of kicking skills without STRAUSS being mentioned lacks credibilty IMO

When making an assement you must recognise kicking under different circumstances (pressure etc)

To take it further you also need to analyse the effectiveness of each players non prefered foot

[Guest DeesPower]

I can't believe nobody has called you yet on rating Scully so highly. I guess that means it falls to me.

It's not penetration that is the issue with Scully kicking. He can kick a good long ball, as was shown by that great goal he kicked from 50 a few weeks ago. When he has no time at all he never misses, but if he has found his way into space he seems to either pick out an opponent or kick it to a 50/50. It's almost as if he's better off when he doesn't have time to use his brain. He is also prone to the old fashioned "up-and-under" when a better kick would be using a lower trajectory to make sure the pass reaches it's target as quickly as possible. This is something that I noted as a concern from his highlight reals last year and his play so far has done nothing to reassure me.

So no, Scully is not an A grade kick. He is elite in his hand skills and his running, his defensive abilities are average and his kicking is ok. I am hoping that with his proven work ethic the deficiencies in his game will be rectified in the next few years, but at the moment that is where he stands.

I agree. The other thing about Scully is he is a very average kick for goal from a set shot. I reckon he would be not much better than 30% at this stage in his career. I'm sure he will be a fabulous player, and these skills can be taught, but IMO this is his single biggest deficiency at the moment.

[Freak 100]

The list should include the whole list not just a few players

The subject of kicking skills without STRAUSS being mentioned lacks credibilty IMO

When making an assement you must recognise kicking under different circumstances (pressure etc)

To take it further you also need to analyse the effectiveness of each players non prefered foot

I didn't mention Strauss because he hasn't proven himself at all on the AFL stage and I can't say with any confidence that he will be in the team in our premiership window. Same goes for Maric. Blease is also unproven.

Interesting that Gary Ablett also believes Scully could be one of the best kicks in our team.

p.s. frawley is 193cm

Edited May 30, 2010 by Freak

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I was just thinking the other day, what the hell happened to Freak?

That's not a terrible OP... but I'm curious. Did you only include those names because they're the only players you think are "core" members? Or because they're the only ones who you believe can kick?

On either level, I can't understand why Frawley isn't in there. Not only is he core, he's one of our most important 6 going forward.

As fra as his kicking goes, you can put him a notch below Bate I reckon. A similarly ugly ball drop... but it gets the job done much more often than not. He doesn't have the penetration of Bate, but in terms of effectivenes (probably to do with what you mention about decision making) Frawley is as reliable as you would ever ask a defender to be. If he was any more accurate, he'd play forward.

In general though, your point is one I still feel like challenging when it comes up. You have been pretty scathing in the past about the kicks of some of this young team. The OP here is refreshing from you, because you seem to be behind a few players you weren't before.

My whole theory ties in with how we've been playing this year. Crawford came out in the media and said we'd gone backwards skill wise before the season started. I expected the worst, then I saw what this side could do...

Suddenly there's execution improvement across the board. I believe this has come about for two different reasons. One is that team-mates are running more regularly, more quickly and more cleverly to position to receive the ball. Whether or not it's confidence, maturity, a pre-season, or maybe it's just that Bailey's game-plan penny has finally dropped... the receiver is making the kicker look good. The other reason we've seen improvement is the pressure of man-on-man footy. The boys are starting to hold their own. They're confident, and they're not afraid to accept a hit to get off a decent pass. Also, when they stuff up, they don't drop their heads and look for a pass down the wing (again, this plays into the receiver's confidence... leading to space in a pocket/wing is always easier).

Just personally Freak, I think you'll find as the team matures, their kicking will increase in effectiveness tenfold. And there's players that will come out of nowhere to show what they could do in juniors without as much physical pressure. Morton is one of these... Jones and Scully as well will be made to look VEEERY good.

Players like Trengove and Davey will be good whether running unmanned, or running with three blokes hanging off their shirt.

[Freak 100]

I was just thinking the other day, what the hell happened to Freak?

That's not a terrible OP... but I'm curious. Did you only include those names because they're the only players you think are "core" members? Or because they're the only ones who you believe can kick?

On either level, I can't understand why Frawley isn't in there. Not only is he core, he's one of our most important 6 going forward.

As fra as his kicking goes, you can put him a notch below Bate I reckon. A similarly ugly ball drop... but it gets the job done much more often than not. He doesn't have the penetration of Bate, but in terms of effectivenes (probably to do with what you mention about decision making) Frawley is as reliable as you would ever ask a defender to be. If he was any more accurate, he'd play forward.

In general though, your point is one I still feel like challenging when it comes up. You have been pretty scathing in the past about the kicks of some of this young team. The OP here is refreshing from you, because you seem to be behind a few players you weren't before.

My whole theory ties in with how we've been playing this year. Crawford came out in the media and said we'd gone backwards skill wise before the season started. I expected the worst, then I saw what this side could do...

Suddenly there's execution improvement across the board. I believe this has come about for two different reasons. One is that team-mates are running more regularly, more quickly and more cleverly to position to receive the ball. Whether or not it's confidence, maturity, a pre-season, or maybe it's just that Bailey's game-plan penny has finally dropped... the receiver is making the kicker look good. The other reason we've seen improvement is the pressure of man-on-man footy. The boys are starting to hold their own. They're confident, and they're not afraid to accept a hit to get off a decent pass. Also, when they stuff up, they don't drop their heads and look for a pass down the wing (again, this plays into the receiver's confidence... leading to space in a pocket/wing is always easier).

Just personally Freak, I think you'll find as the team matures, their kicking will increase in effectiveness tenfold. And there's players that will come out of nowhere to show what they could do in juniors without as much physical pressure. Morton is one of these... Jones and Scully as well will be made to look VEEERY good.

Players like Trengove and Davey will be good whether running unmanned, or running with three blokes hanging off their shirt.

Yeh some good points in there. I missed Frawley. I'm content with his kicking because he knows his limitations and usually picks the right option. There are many players I haven't included like Jamar (ruckmen with foot skills are hard to find), Blease, Maric, Strauss and Tapscott all haven't really played in the AFL yet so I will reserve judgment although i think Tapscott will be the best kick in our team.

[pm24 451]

Just thought it was worth noting that Jack Watts probably has a lot of air time on his ball drop because the kid is 196cm tall. Just got a feeling that might have something to do with it. Other than that, the list seems like a reasonable assessment of our team.

I think we really miss what Paul Wheatley brought to the team. That ability to kick over a zone, or just bomb the ball into the centre square when struggling to get the ball out on a kick in. I'll never forget that game against the bulldogs at the Dome where he literally kicked it to the centre circle.

[Deeoldfart 8,065]

I expect Scully and Grimes to be elite players in the competition, but just at the moment they do turn the ball over a bit by foot. I can forgive them that, and I'm confident that they will weed this out of their games as they gain experience, and become more familiar with the pace and pressure of playing at the top level.

[Go the Biff 3,442]

some good young players that the only reason this list won't take us to a flag will be purely because of a lack of players with good foot skills.

etc etc

It's a bit hard to gauge whether your basing your assessments on their goal kicking, field kicking or both. You wrote of Jetta but didn't address his kicking at all which I find confusing in the context of the post. But I'll try to "kick in" to the discussion

I'm going to disagree on Grimes. I think you might be taking more notice of his errors & not balancing them against his kicking successes. Your A+ selections are probably fair enough - Moloney has a wider repertoire than he had when he first came to us. Davey is superb but needs to look further up the ground - maybe that will come when we have an effective leading forward. The one I disagree most strongly with is Garland. He rarley kicks ball-bursters but his disposal by foot is the equal of anyone bar Davey's left. Just wish he was getting a bit more of it.

Jurrah & Wonna are superb passers of the ball as well. Scully sprays it a bit. He & Trengove you could assess as "first half / second half" kicks. They both miss targets when fatigue sets in deep into the game, particularly Trengove. As they gain strength & conditioning over the next couple of years, the sky is the limit as both have sound techniques.

Dunn is a poor set shot. His run-up does him no favours. He's an ok field kick but comes into his own when having a shot at goal on the run. Gets nicely balanced & kicks through the ball. As an aside, if you think it was inaccuracy that got him dropped I suggest you have another look at his game.

Junior has been a so-so kick all his career. That said, his kicking this year seems to have gone up a notch. Particularly his left foot - he is getting penetration & pretty good accuracy.

Morton I prefer kicking 50+ rather than going short when he tends to miss targets too high. Jones can be very good when he gets balanced but too often tries to be Moloney Mk2. He doesn't have the arsenal for that & should apply the Clint Eastwood rule to himself.

If Jetta is included as core then Jordie McKenzie should probaly be rated as well. I'm a fan of his kicking action, particularly on the run. Keeps the ball reasonably low so it gets to its target quickly. He's another who looks great when he gets balanced.

As someone else said, all of our left-footers are too one-sided. I understand that most are (watch Hawthorn under pressure) but I believe it is a weakness more pronounced in left footers than right. It has cost us scoring opportunities on a number of occasions this season as our left footers have retreated to get onto their preferred side & a free player is covered in the meantime. Green as a young player could use his right. Davey has said his right foot is "only for emergencies".

For those that use stats to assess effective disposals, there is a need for a category "kicks under pressure", sort of a kicking equivalent of the contested marks stat. It's easier to forgive an error from a kick out of a congested pack than it is a kick in open space that sails over the targets head.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Yeh some good points in there. I missed Frawley. I'm content with his kicking because he knows his limitations and usually picks the right option. There are many players I haven't included like Jamar (ruckmen with foot skills are hard to find), Blease, Maric, Strauss and Tapscott all haven't really played in the AFL yet so I will reserve judgment although i think Tapscott will be the best kick in our team.

I think he'll be up there. The thing that'll separate him from the rest is distance, which Sylvia could teach him a thing or two about. But yeah, very good signs in his videos.

Davey deserves to be A+++++. I've never seen anything like him under pressure. Picks the "Trapper" option, but somehow, he almost always gets his man.

And just on Watts, I think he might just end up being one of these ones that I mentioned who will improve greatly with age. A "Lloyd" A+ type. He has got everything he needs on both sides. Field kicking and at goal. He's a walking kicking tutorial for kids. And he can shoot off a quick handball under pressure. But enough on him... Plenty of time for that. Suffice to say, I think his kicking will be something people highlight for years to come. And it'll separate him from the Hawkins/Butcher/Roughead.... even Riewoldt/Franklin debates in the future.

Scully sprays it a bit. He & Trengove you could assess as "first half / second half" kicks. They both miss targets when fatigue sets in deep into the game, particularly Trengove. As they gain strength & conditioning over the next couple of years, the sky is the limit as both have sound techniques.

Sound is probably accurate with Scully. Trengove, if he had 10 more metres on him, would be the perfect kick. His form, ball drop, chipping, kicking at goal... He's a superb, superb kick of the pill. The shape of his kicks is catered to his target too. Scully not so much. But like the good players, he knows his kick. He doesn't just put it on the boot and then blame the target for dropping it. He knows his limitations.

Dunn is a poor set shot. His run-up does him no favours. He's an ok field kick but comes into his own when having a shot at goal on the run. Gets nicely balanced & kicks through the ball. As an aside, if you think it was inaccuracy that got him dropped I suggest you have another look at his game.

Someone needs to sit him down and talk about his set-shots. There's a really good kick there. He's just doing to much.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Anyway question is; what sort of player do we target during trade week and what sort of player do we pick up at the draft? Are foot skills still a priority?

Was not asked of me, but I'll answer it anyway.

For mine, I'm all for a bustling, competing, deep inside forward fifty gorilla with a bit of pace and a humungous body. Butcher for example would have been a good draft pick at 11 should he have fell (no slight on Gys, of course). Doesn't have to be a prodigious kick. In a trade Roughead would have been ideal had he not been signed recently.

Going on the ladder predictor I have us going possibly as high as 6th, or as low as 12th. If 12th, that'll net us pick 12. From what we hear the first few picks are sewn up. Bennell, Darling, Swallow etc. Could a tall of the kind I suggest drop that far? Hmmm. Not too sure we'll get lucky and land a Schoenmakers... Ax suggested in other threads, available opposition NQR talls are pretty lacklustre. I like Astbury, but it's not like he's getting squeezed out.

So what's the answer if we can't go tall? Not being in your face Freak, but maybe one or two 188-192cm players. It's this reason that I inflate Petterd's value to being just outside our best six. He's not a bustling tall. But gee he plays like one. Perhaps a forward line of Petterd sized players who move quickly, and are flexible in positions is the way of the future? We keep hearing that power forwards are a thing of the past? Look at Roo. Without him the Saints are a shadow. When it works it's great, but when they break down or are curtailed, you're one-dimensional.

So after all that. If a good heavy FF/CHF available at 12ish, then snaffle them. If not, I reckon a mid-sized forward. Probably two of these would be ideal. Maybe even in a trade, we could trade pick 12 and a player for pick 6ish?

As for kicking skills on these guys. Kicking is the single most important skill. Of course it's still a priority. It's a priority with EVERY player. The thing in our favour this year is that I doubt we'll be using more than our 3 draft picks (McKenzie, Spencer... and on the outside maybe even Hughes have to be promoted, along with the 3 = five or six delistings)... So we don't need to be looking at players in the 4th round or later with good engines, but horrible kicks. We can go for class, class, class. So I think the kicking issue will take care of itself, at least in this draft.