Change in Ruck Philosophy.

[grazman 7,499]

We tried to play two ruckman in rd 1, and it failed. Spencer was exposed time and again when his man ran off him in defence. We've since played only Jamar with a pinch hitter. Freo are doing the same. West Coast are still persisting with two and North have three (albeit with one playing solely as a KPP) - but my point is this. At some stage you need to trade the cost of effectiveness in the ruck with flexibility around the ground (most ruckman don't give you that). It'll be interesting to see which way the winds continue to blow. This weekend we play two ruckman (though Clark gives them far more flexibilty than most). I think we'll only play Jamar and use the extra space on the bench for genuine run. I think the obvious alternative would be if the league changed the interchange rule to incorporate substitutes.

[Axis of Bob 11,875]

With just one ruckman, for the most part, we have won every fourth quarter. We play a very hard running style of game, but it appears that we are also forcing the opposition to play a hard running style of game to combat us. Eventually we get over the top of them because we have superior endurance running ability. And the extra rotation is very important for us in this context, because we rely heavily on running.

My theory on ruckmen is that as the game speeds up and teams use defensive zones, the 'running ruckman' will have less influence around the ground. This is because the focus in beating zones is moving the ball super quickly so that the opposition can't move the zone. Once you break the zone there is plenty of space behind to allow free scoring. But slow movement means the zone can reset and it's hard to break through. Ruckmen don't move the ball quickly. Even Dean Cox, who gets the ball 20+ times a game, slows the ball down when he gets it. The ball is far better off in the hands of a hard running midfielder than a ruckman.

The role of the ruckman is still important, but it is mainly in the context of using their body to create space (and time) for the midfielders in congested situations (ie, stoppages). Ben Hudson is no world beater, but he is very good at creating space. That's what Jamar is doing really well now, even though he only gets the ball 10 times a game.

[Grand New Flag 3,227]

Very true.

However, I can't see there being any zones this week. Brisbane play old school football and try and move the ball quickly through the corridor with LONG KICKING to their dominate forwards.

They play a very 80s style game plan that suites their list.

[DirtyDees DDC 190]

With just one ruckman, for the most part, we have won every fourth quarter. We play a very hard running style of game, but it appears that we are also forcing the opposition to play a hard running style of game to combat us. Eventually we get over the top of them because we have superior endurance running ability. And the extra rotation is very important for us in this context, because we rely heavily on running.

My theory on ruckmen is that as the game speeds up and teams use defensive zones, the 'running ruckman' will have less influence around the ground. This is because the focus in beating zones is moving the ball super quickly so that the opposition can't move the zone. Once you break the zone there is plenty of space behind to allow free scoring. But slow movement means the zone can reset and it's hard to break through. Ruckmen don't move the ball quickly. Even Dean Cox, who gets the ball 20+ times a game, slows the ball down when he gets it. The ball is far better off in the hands of a hard running midfielder than a ruckman.

The role of the ruckman is still important, but it is mainly in the context of using their body to create space (and time) for the midfielders in congested situations (ie, stoppages). Ben Hudson is no world beater, but he is very good at creating space. That's what Jamar is doing really well now, even though he only gets the ball 10 times a game.

We got badly beaten at the clearances last Sunday in the last quarter - lost them 5 to 13. Perhaps because Jamar tired. I'd prefer to see another option to Dunn as the 2nd ruck. Martin has kicked 3 goal in the last 2 matches for Casey. He's very mobile and should be a better second ruckman than anyone else in the firsts.

His speed could break some of the defensive zones and his height will drag a tall defender onto him. Could be a show this weekend.

[grazman 7,499]

We got badly beaten at the clearances last Sunday in the last quarter - lost them 5 to 13. Perhaps because Jamar tired. I'd prefer to see another option to Dunn as the 2nd ruck. Martin has kicked 3 goal in the last 2 matches for Casey. He's very mobile and should be a better second ruckman than anyone else in the firsts.

His speed could break some of the defensive zones and his height will drag a tall defender onto him. Could be a show this weekend.

I don't think Martin could beat either Leuy or Clark, so It makes no sense to me to play a second ruckman that we know won't win or break even so to me it makes no difference wether Stef or Dunn contest the stoppages. We could play him up forward in lieu of Lynden but I don't think he offers the flexibility atm - I think he needs more time at Casey to learn his craft. Ditto Spencer whose aggression and attitude I like, but he's very much another long term ruck project.... ie he needs another 50 odd games at Casey before he'll even be considered ready.

[DeeSpencer 26,091]

[bI don't think Martin could beat either Leuy or Clark, so It makes no sense to me to play a second ruckman that we know won't win or break even so to me it makes no difference wether Stef or Dunn contest the stoppages. We could play him up forward in lieu of Lynden but I don't think he offers the flexibility atm - I think he needs more time at Casey to learn his craft. Ditto Spencer whose aggression and attitude I like, but he's very much another long term ruck project.... ie he needs another 50 odd games at Casey before he'll even be considered ready.

That's a good point. Although I wouldn't be disappointed to see them bring in Martin to play ruck and forward, giving Jamar more rest. I'd suggest Dunn goes to a medium forward position and Bennell might have to come out. I still think we could provide strong enough forward pressure.

I want to win every game, but I still think we have to look after Jamar and develop ruck and forward options for the long term. Dunn is not a long term back up ruck option.

[Swampfox 190]

While there are a few good ruckman playing today i dont consider any of them great or even very good

This then puts more emphasis on the midfileders gaining possesion of the ball and pushing it into the foward 50 and a scoring opportunity

This is the trend of football at present and until we see the emergence of a great group of ruckmen it will stay that way

I would prefer a good follower than a good ruckman at the moment

A winning midfield would be even better

[biggestred 5,193]

what happens if jamar (or the one ruckman thats in the team) gets injured 5 mins into the 1st?

[grazman 7,499]

and what if they don't get injured in the first five minutes?

I'm not trying to be cute... but obviously the footy dept have weighed up the risks involved. We could play Martin or Spencer or Fitzpatrick, but the reality is none are really ready to compete at AFL level and the FD think our best chance of winning is to continue to set up the way we have... if Jamar gets injured then you have to improvise... as I said before Martin will give you more in the ruck than Dunn, but not enough to make a significant difference as compared to dropping a runner like Dunn or Bennell for him.

[Chook 15,022]

what happens if jamar (or the one ruckman thats in the team) gets injured 5 mins into the 1st?

Then the rovers just shark the hell out of the opposition ruckman. It's pretty much what happens now whenever one ruck gets way on top.

[deanox 10,025]

We tried to play two ruckman in rd 1, and it failed. Spencer was exposed time and again when his man ran off him in defence. We've since played only Jamar with a pinch hitter. Freo are doing the same. West Coast are still persisting with two and North have three (albeit with one playing solely as a KPP) - but my point is this. At some stage you need to trade the cost of effectiveness in the ruck with flexibility around the ground (most ruckman don't give you that). It'll be interesting to see which way the winds continue to blow. This weekend we play two ruckman (though Clark gives them far more flexibilty than most). I think we'll only play Jamar and use the extra space on the bench for genuine run. I think the obvious alternative would be if the league changed the interchange rule to incorporate substitutes.

if the league changed the rule to 2 interchange and 2 substitutes i'd bet that teams play 1 ruck and either have a forward/ruck option or the other ruck is a substitute, used only if required.

neither spencer nor martin will win the ruck so i cant see the point in bringing them in.

AND im still a bit sceptical about ruckmen. even playing well they only get 25% to advantage. id like to see stats on 'to disadvantage', recorded exactly the same way but a tap to an opposition mid. i bet you they would be similar %'s.