He will play his best footy if allowed to continue his unorthodox approach... fence him in to the square and you will be doing everyone a dis-seervice. You can have all the attibutes per se but if you havent the body on body strength he will get monstered by whatever Guerilla is assigned him. Give him space and lattitude

Who is doing the fencing? Give him the space from FF to lead into and know one will be getting monstered.

by its very nature FF is a somewhat contained position..As you say requires space.. ..well dont put him where theres constraints.

Interesting discussion.

If a player is the number 1 target up forward (atttracting the best backman), then is he, by default, the full forward?

Or does full forward imply he's restricted to stand in front of the goals?

Maybe its just semantics again. It seems to win every argument these days.

No it just seems to prolong every argument. Interesting question though. I'd say that I want him playing within 60 of goal and will be a focal point, thus FF in my view

No it just seems to prolong every argument. Interesting question though. I'd say that I want him playing within 60 of goal and will be a focal point, thus FF in my view

Agree. Next year, Jurrah will be the number one target up forward and therefore a KPP or FF or whatever someone wants to label it.

Are you serious? Barassi was the first to stress that you can't skate by on ability alone? Since the beginning of time people have been told that ability isn't enough in itself, and this applies to all endeavours - not just football.

Btw, talent = ability.

You over simplify what Im saying to make your point look stronger. Its pretty sad.. and see-thru

Its just in your mind you think Im saying Barassi was, "THE first to give the - 'you need more than just ability speech' - because thats how you want to interpret it to suit your arguement.

You take it as: just another speech - been said before..

I take it as: If 'the superstar' of the comp was not quite putting in on the track or fully doing his part - Barass would have said, 'Well, you wont be playing in my team no matter how good / how much ability you have.'

Thats how i interpret the speech and my point is there probably wasnt many before him to stand firm behind their convictions..

BTW - If Ability and Talent were the same thing, they'd be the same word.

Here, I'll use LJ to explain the difference, just for you:

"Last year we became aware of LJs' ability and after working hard on the track, in the 2nd half of the season we saw just how talented he is." ...Capish?

The only reason why people don't see Jurrah as a FF is because of deep sociological defect that thinks that black folks can't be FFs.

I think you were either over-eager to take a pot shot at someone or you're too convinced by the superiority of your own views on football that you failed to consider some of the reasonable queries about LJ's physicality that have been mentioned here.

Who is doing the fencing? Give him the space from FF to lead into and know one will be getting monstered.

There's that little issue of the opposition

Completely disagree. Jurrah has KPP written all over him in my view, I also think this argument has come up before.

If jurrah is our third key forward in upcoming years may God watch over and keep those whom we play, because it will be ugly.

I agree, and this is why I'd like it to happen. Assuming Watts turns into a forward playing a similar gamestyle to Riewoldt I'd like someone closer to hime who provides that long 'get out of jail' target.

The last we've had is Holland, while Jamar provied somewhat effective playing that way and of course guys like Kosi and Roughead do it better.

RE: Williams, I'd point to Hawthorn stocking up on KPFs (Franklin, Roughead, Thorp and Dowler).

You over simplify what Im saying to make your point look stronger. Its pretty sad.. and see-thru

Its just in your mind you think Im saying Barassi was, "THE first to give the - 'you need more than just ability speech' - because thats how you want to interpret it to suit your arguement.

I simply paraphrased your assertion in order to reply in a concise manner. I certainly didn't want to misrepresent your argument - you'll note my argument still stands if you interpret my response as challenging the assertion that he was 'one of the first'.

The idea that Barassi was one of the first to tell his players that realising potential needed more than just natural ability is simply unfathomable. I bet their mothers told them before he coached them.

BTW - If Ability and Talent were the same thing, they'd be the same word.

You can't get closer than synonyms

Here's the definition of talent:

tal·ent (tlnt)

n.

1. A marked innate ability, as for artistic accomplishment. See Synonyms at ability.

2.

a. Natural endowment or ability of a superior quality.

b. A person or group of people having such ability: The company makes good use of its talent.

Here's a definition of ability:

a·bil·i·ty (-bl-t)

n. pl. a·bil·i·ties

1. The quality of being able to do something, especially the physical, mental, financial, or legal power to accomplish something.

2. A natural or acquired skill or talent.

While there is some difference it's certainly not the difference which is outlined in what's being attributed to Barassi, with one being innate skill and another describing someone who has paired that with hard work in order to realise their potential.

Here, I'll use LJ to explain the difference, just for you:

"Last year we became aware of LJs' ability and after working hard on the track, in the 2nd half of the season we saw just how talented he is." ...Capish?

I don't know why you're being so condescending, particularly since your example actually fails to prove your point. It also works like this:

"Last year we became aware of LJ's talent and after working hard on the track, in the 2nd half of the season we saw just how much ability he has."

Here's the definition of talent:

Here's a definition of ability:

While there is some difference it's certainly not the difference which is outlined in what's being attributed to Barassi, with one being innate skill and another describing someone who has paired that with hard work in order to realise their potential.

I don't know why you're being so condescending, particularly since your example actually fails to prove your point. It also works like this:

"Last year we became aware of LJ's talent and after working hard on the track, in the 2nd half of the season we saw just how much ability he has."

LOL-

You so missed the point.. what 3 times now?

You can offer up dodgy definitions all you like.. (and then admit there is some difference between your synonyms? )

Point is - I and others know what Barass meant, you obviously dont get it.

But you know what? He's coached more prems than both of us combined and his theory is proven.. That you cant argue..

moving on...

Agree. Next year, Jurrah will be the number one target up forward and therefore a KPP or FF or whatever someone wants to label it.

Would love to see LJ given some time at CHF. He needs to be right in the thick of it as does JW imo..

and we want both utilising their great shot on goal.

Hopefully LJ can put on some weight quick, so we can see LJ and JW switching between the 2 key forward posts as opposition dictates (riewoldt/ kosi style)

BCS, they get some time in those possies next year and really ready to hop into it by 2011. Also this frees Martin up for a Key Back / Relieving Ruck role as well.. (God I hope we keep Martin away from the Forward line in future )

Who is doing the fencing? Give him the space from FF to lead into and know one will be getting monstered.

Players who succeed in this position get double teamed, triple teamed, get their run at the ball blocked, have opposition players blocking the hole in front of them and the effect is they are forced to play a more physical style. Beezlebub is 100% correct

There's no definitive answer to such a question, as its a subjective call. To me, Liam is definitely a star, but to others, not quite yet.

It seems to me that there are two aspects of a star player - neither of which correlate to being the best player.

Firstly, 'star power', to me is a trait which attracts crowds. In Hollywood, for instance, Sylvestor Stallone is a 'star', though clearly not the worlds greatest actor. This year, Liam became a star for the Demons, evidenced by the excitement and thrills he provided for Demon fans. Make no mistake, he is a drawcard. On one level, that makes him a star of the game.

Secondly, in pure football terms, a star player is one - not necessarily the club's best player - who is capable of changing the course of a game off their own boot. As opposed to some great accumulators of the ball, these players are capable of doing freakish things, unpredictable, and brilliant things, which others cannot do. This makes them a star player. Although LJ only played 9 games, I reckon he showed aspects of these traits in almost every game he played - despite being regularly benched when he looked like taking a game apart!

In summary, there's no right or wrong answer, but to my way of thinking Liam is already a star player without doubt.

Players who succeed in this position get double teamed, triple teamed, get their run at the ball blocked, have opposition players blocking the hole in front of them and the effect is they are forced to play a more physical style. Beezlebub is 100% correct

I see Jurrah being quite a handful the majority of the time, but very dangerous when the ball is in motion after a turnover or in transition from the back half when the team is in possession. If Jurrah captures his opponent one on one inside the forward 50m.... . He will be very, very hard to beat.

Of course, if the opposition side has flooded or block's paths inside 50 for leads, it will always be hard for pinpointed passes. No matter who is on the lead.

As for the putting 10 kg on, I'm not sure he has to. He'll get a bit bigger, as long as he is able to continue what he has been doing, that is being very agile to out position his opponents, lead for his teammates, and learn further aspects of his game for the sake of his team, all well and good.

Let's not forget, Watts is in the same boat as far as learning off his teammates around him and the learning the functioning of our new forwardline. Not just Jurrah. This goes for anyone else that is selected/recruited for the forward line. Really is a fresh start in a way for the Mfc.

I think you were either over-eager to take a pot shot at someone or you're too convinced by the superiority of your own views on football that you failed to consider some of the reasonable queries about LJ's physicality that have been mentioned here.

No pot-shot at an individual and I have yet to see a reasonable query over Jurrah's physicality that can not be answered with - he's 20 without a pre-season.

"He's too skinny" - That is how kids come to clubs, yes?

"He's undeveloped in the shoulders and arms" - Has he done a pre-season? He hasn't?!

From here we get into the absurd, and slightly prejudice reasons.

"He's too quick and agile to be FF. He's more of a HFF." - Yeah, I would hate to have a quick and agile FF...

"He won't be able to deal with being the focal point." - On what evidence? Fevola handles it and he is half the man Jurrah is.

If anyone thinks I am making these up to suit my argument, please provide reasons why Jurrah cannot be a "Focal point/FF/whatever you want to call it" that cannot be answered by "he's 20" or "he has not had a PS."

Just for the record...id rather Jurrah just increases his strength and endurance ( if thats at all required ) without bulking up. I d rather not see him in the square as I think that would severely diminish his playing field. I agree with the notion that anywhere inside of the 50 , with ball in hand that he will worry oppositions no end.. He can turn others inside out and upside down and has shown amazing spacial awareness ( and opportunity ) ....that goal through 3 defenders was mind boggling !!. Dont cage him...dont change him.. just let him be.. with every game comes even more confidence and experience.

He loves the footy field...he isnt over awed by it one iota. He commands it even now..he did from the first moment.

totally agree with RudeBoy's summations

Just for the record...id rather Jurrah just increases his strength and endurance ( if that's at all required ) without bulking up. I d rather not see him in the square as I think that would severely diminish his playing field. I agree with the notion that anywhere inside of the 50 , with ball in hand that he will worry oppositions no end.. He can turn others inside out and upside down and has shown amazing spacial awareness ( and opportunity ) ....that goal through 3 defenders was mind boggling !!. Dont cage him...dont change him.. just let him be.. with every game comes even more confidence and experience.

He loves the footy field...he isnt over awed by it one iota. He commands it even now..he did from the first moment.

totally agree with RudeBoy's summations

I cant believe that this tread has made it to 5 pages,only a star could manage that many pages, i wonder if the same poll was made for GREEN if it would go for 5 pages. HE IS A STAR.

That's a BIG call. Could easily be true in some cases.

In my case, I think he's not the type of player to play the stereotypical FF role, therefore I wouldn't refer to him as a FF.

He's more a roaming forward for mine.

Bugger it, I don't care what position you nominate for him, just put him in the damn forward line and kick the ball in his direction.

Doesn't Daniel Motlop spend a bit of time playing at FF for Port?

Yes, he does.

Is the "stereotypical FF" role becoming less frequent ?

Or are they, just as prevalent as they always were ? (ie. Fev, Bradshaw)

The way the game is played, is there more a need for the roaming forward KPP that is flexible for either FF or CHF or even HFF or Forward Pocket KP option...?

I think the way the game is with the zoning defensive set ups that oppositions come up with to prevent or minimise the FF's influence, is to have flexible and multiple options within or around the forward line.

Liam Jurrah I believe is a KPP prospect, he may not be the typical solid stereotypical FF, but he could become the the new version of FF, the adaptable and roaming FF, teaming up with perhaos one or two others.

Dont be sucked in by the stereotypical image of a FF. As rpfc said earlier he has all the ingredients to be a successful FF. He times his leads well and has pace to get infront of his opponent , his kicking is sound and his hands are clean and capable of the unimaginable. While he is not a gorilla he can bring his own unique style to the position. I have no doubt he can become a threat from FF

My thoughts too.

Would love to see LJ given some time at CHF. He needs to be right in the thick of it as does JW imo..

and we want both utilising their great shot on goal.

Hopefully LJ can put on some weight quick, so we can see LJ and JW switching between the 2 key forward posts as opposition dictates (riewoldt/ kosi style)

BCS, they get some time in those possies next year and really ready to hop into it by 2011. Also this frees Martin up for a Key Back / Relieving Ruck role as well..

Thinking along the same lines. Maybe an option for three KFP, not just two. More multi-dimensional. I would like to see perhaps Garland tried up forward too at some stage.

Players who succeed in this position get double teamed, triple teamed, get their run at the ball blocked, have opposition players blocking the hole in front of them and the effect is they are forced to play a more physical style. Beezlebub is 100% correct

This is one part of it but when forwards are double/triple teamed they tend to fail no matter who they are. Its up to the team to play accountable football that limits this option to opponents coupled with quick clean ball movement into the forward line. Jurrah has shown us he can find space when no one else can. Sure he might be outmatched in the air in a one on one body contact situation but you give him a run at the ball and my guess is he will win more than he looses.

These are all just opinions, no one is 100% correct

Yes, he does.

Is the "stereotypical FF" role becoming less frequent ?

Or are they, just as prevalent as they always were ? (ie. Fev, Bradshaw)

Liam Jurrah I believe is a KPP prospect, he may not be the typical solid stereotypical FF, but he could become the the new version of FF, the adaptable and roaming FF, teaming up with perhaos one or two others.

My thoughts too.

Thinking along the same lines. Maybe an option for three KFP, not just two. More multi-dimensional. I would like to see perhaps Garland tried up forward too at some stage.

yes he is

You can offer up dodgy definitions all you like.. (and then admit there is some difference between your synonyms? )

According to the dictionary defintions I've provided, the difference is not that one is about one describing an innate gift while the other describes the realisation of potential through hard work, dedication, etc.

If you think the dictionary definitions I've quoted are 'dodgy', feel free to provide definitions from another dictionary that contradict those and suggest the definition attributed to Barassi is correct (I haven't found any).

Point is - I and others know what Barass meant, you obviously dont get it.

I know what he meant, and it's something that's been lectured about since the dawn of time.

It's something drummed into talented people in various walks of life, and if Barassi was a talented youngster I imagine it was drummed into him too.

I simply don't think the definitions attributed to Barassi are semantically correct, which is what this debate is all about.

But you know what? He's coached more prems than both of us combined and his theory is proven.. That you cant argue..

I think it's you that's missed the point.

First, the 'theory' - if you can call it that - is not on trial. As I've said, the attribution was posted because of a debate about semantics of talent and ability, not football philosophy.

[by the way, even if this were a debate about the 'theory', the fact that the fact he's coached premierships doesn't 'prove' the 'theory'. However, that's beside the point - the debate isn't about the 'theory'.]

I haven't ever suggested that the gist of what's been attributed to him by Hannibal is somehow a flawed coaching 'philosophy' or 'theory', simply that his definitions of talent and ability are semantically incorrect.

Surely you don't think that the fact that he's coached successfully at AFL level prove that he used some words in a semantically correct manner?

If you idolise Barrassi so much you take definitions of words attributed to him over dictionary defintions that's fair enough, but be upfront about it.

This is one part of it but when forwards are double/triple teamed they tend to fail no matter who they are. Its up to the team to play accountable football that limits this option to opponents coupled with quick clean ball movement into the forward line. Jurrah has shown us he can find space when no one else can. Sure he might be outmatched in the air in a one on one body contact situation but you give him a run at the ball and my guess is he will win more than he looses.

These are all just opinions, no one is 100% correct

In short I guess I see him as a roaming forward in the style of Gary Buckenara who was a gun in very strong Hawthorn teams. Great leap , dangerous at ground level, multiple goal kicker and matchwinner but didn't have to play KP to be so.

.....

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Everyone here's over it, Im over it. You can only argue semantics for so long..

..here, i tell you what..

you find me some other coaches from any time before Barassi started coaching in 67' / 68' - back to "the dawn of time" as you put it,

where they give the 'ability - talent' speech (and not just one coach, a few.. and with footnotes..)

and I'll concede.

Until then..

Thinking along the same lines. Maybe an option for three KFP, not just two. More multi-dimensional. I would like to see perhaps Garland tried up forward too at some stage.

For sure.

Id love to see this Forward Line in the 1st pre-season game next year:

Garland Jurrah Tapscott

Wonna Watts Daw

Obviously I've filled in some of the blanks with my draft hopefuls

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Everyone here's over it, Im over it. You can only argue semantics for so long..

I can't wait for the next Telstra Bigpond advertisement in which the Dad relies on press conferences and other musings from sporting figures when helping his son with English homework

I am truly sorry that an off-the-cuff comment about Jurrah already being a star resulted in a poll, five pages about the teachings of Ron Barassi and an argument over semantics.

What else would we do during the off season?

I am truly sorry that an off-the-cuff comment about Jurrah already being a star resulted in a poll, five pages about the teachings of Ron Barassi and an argument over semantics.

Dont be sorry, there are some that found it informative and useful.