Do we need to draft a ruckman?

[Gooner 9]

Ruckmen are really hard to pick whether they're going to be good or not.

The only successful ruckmen who have been hyped up to being with are the few that have been taken with picks in the first 5. Jeff White, Kozi and Kreuzer come to mind.

Some of the more successful ruckmen out there have not been high draft picks or even got many games when they are younger.

Give Spencer time, it's no guarantee that he'll be the solutions to our ruck problems, but both he and Meesen deserve the chance.

Saying that, should Vardy be available when pick 18 arrives, pick him. We need a ruckman, and he's a good solution for pick 18.

[Axis of Bob 11,243]

An interesting little comparison between Mumford and Spencer.

Spencer has just turned 20 (played the season as a 19 year old), while Mumford is 23.

Spencer played 6 games this year and averaged 11.3 hitouts and 7.5 disposals per game. Mumford played 18 games and averaged 15.7 hitouts and 8.7 disposals per game.

Also interesting, Aaron Sandilands hadn't even been drafted when he was 19!! He debuted as a 20 year old off the rookie list and was recruited out of the WAFL. Then, he averaged 7.2 disposals a game and 18.6 hitouts. But was also a year older than Spencer.

Dean Cox debuted as a 19 year old and averaged 7.7 disposals and 10.8 hit outs per game. Also recruited as a rookie.

Darren Jolly (who is the player i feel Spencer is most comparable to as an aggressive tap ruckman) debuted as a 19 year old and played 4 games. He averaged 2.5 disposals and 3.5 hit outs per game that season!! His next year (comparable to Spencer's 2010 in terms of age) he averaged 4.7 disposals and 5.6 hit outs. The year after that (comparable to Spencer's 2011) Jolly averaged 7.2 disposals and 13.7 hit outs per game. Eventually now (as a 27 year old) he averages 11.8 disposals and 31 hit outs per game.

Now before you tell me that Spencer isn't as good as Cox etc etc, these just point out that there is so much development left in young ruckmen that I think saying that he's a dud/'make or break' is foolish. Time is what's needed to invest in young ruckmen a they fill out and develop their co-ordination (the West Coast players used to laugh at Cox's lack of co-ordination when he was young) as well as develop AFL running ability. Spencer has the raw requirements of a good ruckman, with his competitiveness, size and aggression, he just needs to develop the parts of his game that all beanpoles naturally improve as they gain more muscle - namely strength and co-ordination.

[torpedo 33]

Now this is ironic.

Billy brought up the argument against Spencer that you constantly used against Valenti.

Now the fact that Valenti is gone validates your opinion but not your argument.

I guess it really isn't as straight forward as "if they rated him, they would have put him on the Primary List."

Hmmmm?

I am sure RR can speak for himself but the fact that one is a 23 year old, AFL-ready midfielder and the other is a 19 year old developing ruckman is a glaringly obvious difference. Incomparable. The comment makes perfect sense in regards to an AFL-ready player, Spencer is not.

[torpedo 33]

Darren Jolly (who is the player i feel Spencer is most comparable to as an aggressive tap ruckman) debuted as a 19 year old and played 4 games. He averaged 2.5 disposals and 3.5 hit outs per game that season!!

Fairly useless stat without TOG.

What is interesting is that the Cats played Blake ahead of Mumford in the GF, even though it is a universally accepted view amongst Cats & non-Cats fans that Blake is a dud footballer. Ultimately Blake gets them first use most often so he got the gig, coaches rate that highly.

I think its fairly obvious from his height that once he gets some frame on him Spencer will dominate tap outs, something which a 23 year old Mumford has been unable to do.

[Axis of Bob 11,243]

You're right, torpedo, however the stats are not intended to be specific, but more to outline the general improvement that is left in a young ruckman's development.

I also think that the ability to win the ball around the ground (unless you're Dean Cox) doesn't seem to improve as much as the ability to influence a ruck contest. This, you would assume, is due to the massive influence that body size has on your ability to compete in the ruck and how much physical development most ruckmen have left in them at 19 years of age. I never expect Spencer to win more that 15 touches a game but I think that, in time, he could be a dominant aggressive tap ruckman in a similar style to Jolly.

I see Mumford as being closer to Ben Hudson (or even Jamar), in that his value is in the follow up work around stoppages with tackling and blocking rather than giving his midfield first use. That lack of competitiveness is a real weakness in Blake's game and why Mumford was preferred during periods of last year. This is really important and it's something I hope Spencer becomes more involved in, as he increases in size. I'm confident he'll improve because of his competitiveness. But the Geelong scenario is a very interesting comparison of worth of two different styles of ruckman.

What are your thoughts on the value of the different types of ruckman (assume each are mature)?

a- The aggressive tap ruckman (Jolly, Blake, Spencer)

b- The big bodied scrimmager (Mumford, Hudson, R Campbell)

c- The 'extra midfielder' (Cox, Fraser, P Johnson)

Obviously you would like these players to all be good at winning hitouts (some more than others), but they are a different style of ruckman. Which of these categories do you think is most valued, and which one the least valued?

Edited November 4, 2009 by Axis of Bob

[rpfc 28,057]

I am sure RR can speak for himself but the fact that one is a 23 year old, AFL-ready midfielder and the other is a 19 year old developing ruckman is a glaringly obvious difference. Incomparable. The comment makes perfect sense in regards to an AFL-ready player, Spencer is not.

I don't know if you are familar with RR's stance on Valenti - essentially that "if the MFC rated him, they would have elevated him."

Now Spencer is looking at a 3rd year on the RL and he is above that argument?

I agree that length on the RL is inconsequential as to whether a club rates a rookie.

Sometimes a situation, such as a beanpole ruckman from Queensland being on the RL and the dearth of places on the Primary List, means that a player will be kept on the RL but still be rated by those at the club.

Again, I say - RR's opinion on the lack of desire for Valenti by the MFC is correct.

His argument is not, however.

[torpedo 33]

I don't know if you are familar with RR's stance on Valenti - essentially that "if the MFC rated him, they would have elevated him."

Yes, your post included it.

As you said the comment was made in relation to 'him', being Valenti, in which case it makes perfect sense. You cant just take a comment made in relation to one player and then apply it to another and say haha you're wrong, thats retarded.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Again, I say - RR's opinion on the lack of desire for Valenti by the MFC is correct.

His argument is not, however.

Not necessarily.

Valenti was promoted by his supporters as an AFL ready to go 23 yo midfielder (better than McLean according to some ) and should be playing for MFC now. I have always held that MFC did not rate Valenti because he has few of the skills required in AFL to overcome his deficiencies. When we are screaming out for quality midfielders, it was clear that Valenti was not seen as one of them as MFC were prepared to draft as low as 60 in the ND and still not consider Valenti for elevation.

Spencer is a project player who needs significant development. Injuries have probably forced him to the front line earlier than would otherwise have been. While he is raw, at 19 he gives more hope in the ruck than PJ and Meesen and I think Bob's assessment of him is right. The AFL have only just introduce the rule for the 3 year rookie. If they had not, I think MFC would have elevated Spencer. At this point, he is definitely worth persevering with. In addition we should also be looking at other ruck options.

[torpedo 33]

What are your thoughts on the value of the different types of ruckman (assume each are mature)?

a- The aggressive tap ruckman (Jolly, Blake, Spencer)

b- The big bodied scrimmager (Mumford, Hudson, R Campbell)

c- The 'extra midfielder' (Cox, Fraser, P Johnson)

Obviously you would like these players to all be good at winning hitouts (some more than others), but they are a different style of ruckman. Which of these categories do you think is most valued, and which one the least valued?

It appears the coaches rate a) very highly, based on recent selections & trades. You certainly notice it when teams are getting clean use of it out of the middle whereas around the grounds the influence seems less profound, more astute observers of ruckman may think otherwise though.

You don't want the 'extra midfielder' type if they cannot ruck, then you might as well just have an extra midfielder.

Ideally you want someone with more than one string to their bow. Cox dominates the hit outs as well as playing as an 'extra midfielder'. If they can provide a strong marking option its invaluable. If they can snag a goal each week you'll be very happy.

I think I'd have to say a) though

[Sir Why You Little 36,696]

Yes of course we need to Draft a (Good) Ruckmen, ever since we let Jolly go up north.

I'm sure it wasn't done on purpose, but with the rule changes to the Centre Ruck Duels Losing Jolly really put the team back a few years.

Ruckmen are like old cars that you rebuild on the Front lawn-They take years to get right....

[Rogue 585]

Again, I say - RR's opinion on the lack of desire for Valenti by the MFC is correct.

His argument is not, however.

If you look at RR's comments in context you'll find they're quite cogent.

[Hiram Cowfreak 76]

I think an important part of a ruckmans game is to be able to take a mark. Great ruckmen like Simon Maddern and Jimmy had great hands.

Looking at our rucks:

- Jamar has been taking more important marks this year than previously and has the confidence to go for a speccy a la Jeff White

- Poor PJ has hard hands and can't mark for nuts

- Meesen looks like he might have good hands

- Dunno about Spencer??

If we use pick 18 on a ruckman, he needs to be capable of taking a good grab. If Vardy is exceptional, use pick 11 for him

[rpfc 28,057]

If you look at RR's comments in context you'll find they're quite cogent.

Look, all I want to get on record is that the amount of time spent on the RL is not a good enough gauge of a clubs view of a player.

Other factors keep players on the RL - like having a dearth of places on the Primary List as we have now.

That is all.

A small addendum to the conversation.

Let's move on.

[Swampfox 190]

Well from the ruckman in this years draft i am struggling to see which one is better than what we have

No way we will take a ruckman at picks 1, 2 , 11 or 18 as there are far better options still available

This is a midfileders draft with a few tall forwards and not much of anything else

[Hiram Cowfreak 76]

Yeah agreed its rookie one or forget it this year

[Fat Tony 5,105]

I think an important part of a ruckmans game is to be able to take a mark. Great ruckmen like Simon Maddern and Jimmy had great hands.

Looking at our rucks:

- Jamar has been taking more important marks this year than previously and has the confidence to go for a speccy a la Jeff White

- Poor PJ has hard hands and can't mark for nuts

- Meesen looks like he might have good hands

- Dunno about Spencer??

If we use pick 18 on a ruckman, he needs to be capable of taking a good grab. If Vardy is exceptional, use pick 11 for him

A few points about the ruck:

• Contested marking is becoming less and less important in the modern game. Players are instructed not to kick to contests and the kicking skills are so much better these days.

• The best ruckmen in the game today are all good runners and most are reasonably good kicks.

• In its endeavor to speed up the game, the AFL has made it harder for ruckmen to reach every ruck contest.

• Using a third man up is a very effective way to negate any disadvantage in contests around the ground.

• I don't think you will be able to afford to have two specialist ruckmen in the future. You will need at least one to also be able to play elsewhere.

• IMO Spencer is incredibly overrated and should be delisted. He is not athletic or skilled enough to play AFL and is an ordinary VFL player at best. Better to rookie another big bloke and try again.

• Vardy is not worth pick 11 and I doubt he will be one of the best 20 players to come from a very weak draft. He would have been lucky to have gone in the top 40 last year. For us to effectively give up Brock McLean for Vardy would probably be a blunder.

• Martin is definitely worth persevering with in the ruck. Look at Mitch Clarke this year. He could develop into a similar player if given the same opportunity.

• St Kilda has identified a good model for the ruck. Gardner and King were obtained for very little and are paid peanuts.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Not necessarily.

Valenti was promoted by his supporters as an AFL ready to go 23 yo midfielder (better than McLean according to some ) and should be playing for MFC now. I have always held that MFC did not rate Valenti because he has few of the skills required in AFL to overcome his deficiencies. When we are screaming out for quality midfielders, it was clear that Valenti was not seen as one of them as MFC were prepared to draft as low as 60 in the ND and still not consider Valenti for elevation.

Spencer is a project player who needs significant development. Injuries have probably forced him to the front line earlier than would otherwise have been. While he is raw, at 19 he gives more hope in the ruck than PJ and Meesen and I think Bob's assessment of him is right. The AFL have only just introduce the rule for the 3 year rookie. If they had not, I think MFC would have elevated Spencer. At this point, he is definitely worth persevering with. In addition we should also be looking at other ruck options.

Sorry RR, going to disagree on this one. We had PJ and Meesen already contracted, Stef Martin as a back up, and that left Jamar who they offered a 1 year contract to. So, does that mean they would have got rid of Jamar to elevate Spencer? I'd personally hope not, but they may have traded if the rumors about him going home were correct. I think the rookie list rule change saved Spencer.

I'm not sure why the criticism of Meesen either. I think he showed a lot of improvement in the handful of games he played. I will be watching him in 2010 to hopefully see him have an injury free year.

I think my main issue with Spencer is the fact that while he played for Casey, according to the numerous coaches reports posted on the MFC website by Peter German, he was always being asked to do more but very rarely did. There weren't many times where he actually got a good compliment.

I seriously hope I'm wrong and that Jake is the answer to our ruck issue. I'll be more than happy to apologise to his face if need be. While I have probably come across fairly harsh in my criticism, I'm just saying that I don't think he has got what it takes to be an AFL ruckman. Would rather see him delisted and Vardy drafted.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Sorry RR, going to disagree on this one. We had PJ and Meesen already contracted, Stef Martin as a back up, and that left Jamar who they offered a 1 year contract to. So, does that mean they would have got rid of Jamar to elevate Spencer? I'd personally hope not, but they may have traded if the rumors about him going home were correct. I think the rookie list rule change saved Spencer.

No. They can keep Jamar and Spencer on the list. We have 3 bona fide ruckman on the list. Martin at this stage pinch hits there. in 2009, two went down injured we were left with PJ who cant ruck and Spencer who is raw and brought on ahead of time at 19. It showed we lacked sufficient options in the ruck. We could easily take another ruckman on our list. A number of clubs have 5 to 6 rucks on the list. Spencer would have been kept either way. Its possible that both PJ and Meesen will be gone at the end of next season and both should feel lucky they are contracted

I'm not sure why the criticism of Meesen either. I think he showed a lot of improvement in the handful of games he played. I will be watching him in 2010 to hopefully see him have an injury free year.

He's no good. The only kind thing I can say about Meesen is that in his four games he was not as excruciatingly bad as he has been at Casey in 2008 and early 2009. Mind he was not that good either. And then there are the injuries...... Unless he improves his game and fitness he's gone at year end.

I think my main issue with Spencer is the fact that while he played for Casey, according to the numerous coaches reports posted on the MFC website by Peter German, he was always being asked to do more but very rarely did. There weren't many times where he actually got a good compliment.

Last year when Spencer was not in the AFL he was rucking 100 minutes one out against big bodied experienced tall players. He is 19yo. And for what its worth, I do read the Casey/Sandy reports and have never seen a negative report on a player. And I have seen Meesen, Robbo and Weetra to name a few who put in some absolute shockers in the VFL and still get positive reports. The assessments are laced with treacle.

While I have probably come across fairly harsh in my criticism, I'm just saying that I don't think he has got what it takes to be an AFL ruckman.

Its more a worry that you think PJ and Meesen do.

[Redleg 40,293]

The assessments are laced with treacle.

Are we back on to recipes again?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Are we back on to recipes again?

I blame Masterchef

[hoopla 418]

[quote name='billy2803' date='Nov 5 2009, 10:07 AM' post='286598

I'm not sure why the criticism of Meesen either. I think he showed a lot of improvement in the handful of games he played. I will be watching him in 2010 to hopefully see him have an injury free year.

[H_T 3,032]

Meeson's soft possessions in those early games last year have fooled a lot of people. In what was probably his best game for the club he had the grand total of '4' hitouts with an efficiency rating of 25%.He can't ruck. If he happens to have an injury free year, he will be delisted at the end of next season.

Standing by for Darren Cuthbertson's reply......

[hoopla 418]

Standing by for Darren Cuthbertson's reply......

..likewise...lol

[Darren Cuthbertson 0]

[quote name='billy2803' date='Nov 5 2009, 10:07 AM' post='286598

I'm not sure why the criticism of Meesen either. I think he showed a lot of improvement in the handful of games he played. I will be watching him in 2010 to hopefully see him have an injury free year.

Meeson's soft possessions in those early games last year have fooled a lot of people. In what was probably his best game for the club he had the grand total of '4' hitouts with an efficiency rating of 25%.He can't ruck. If he happens to have an injury free year, he will be delisted at the end of next season.

Hoopla -here are the hit out and efficiency stats for Meeson's 4 games last season:

(Hit Outs/Disposal Effciency) 22/88% 12/94% 9/56% 5/78%

Average 12 hitouts and average disposal efficiency of 80%

I don't know where you are getting your 4 hitouts and 25% effciency stats from.

Average time on ground was 70% with 60% of his possessions being contested.

You just love Jamar at the expense of recognising any other Melbourne ruckman and word statistics to ensure that the players you personally dislike are shipped from the club or just leave themselves. Your influence amongst the MFC is behind the scenes but getting more powerful everyday. Meeson's gone. Did you know he is from the Ablett's old club Modewarre?

I think you and Hightower are putting the wrong numbers in front of me to get me to post.

When you get the numbers at Board level everyone will bow to the Hoopla you have created!

[Darren Cuthbertson 0]

..likewise...lol

You won't lol when your numbers are proven incorrect and everyone will think wrongly that Hoopla doesn't know anything about football when you do and are a major MFC mover and shaker!