Dean Bailey

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The reality suggests that next year we will be in stage 2 of the re-building process.

I have been bagged on this forum before for saying we need to display a new "culture" on the footy field. 6 to 8 wins should be and is a realistic target, but to me, more importantly, what I would like to see next year is improvement in these areas. I think, even with our depleted list in the second half of the year, the signs are already there.

1. More on-field leadership shown by players who have a year or 2 under their belts.

2. An evident improvement in disposal skills

3. A forward structure that is multi-dimensional.

While the list is young, the calibre of recent and new recruits that we will have suggests that Dean Bailey will have perhaps one of the best young lists to work with than the majority of AFL lists. If there is a discernible improvement in these areas, then DB deserves to have his contract extended for another 2 years. If not, it will be time to look elsewhere.

I think your target next year is realistic and you are right with the metrics to measure imporvements. i would add a few more and not restrict structure to the forward line for example. It wont be solely games won but obvious scoreboard performance will be factor for consideration.

When would you make that judgement Iva? How long would you wait before the media starts rolling out the obituaries? As you rightly pointed out, this is a young list and any highs from an emerging rising star will also be tempered with the inepxerience and inconsistency prevalent in younger players. This is also coupled with possible injuries as well. What's your window?

[Roost It 1,434]

Another thing to remember.

Do we seriously want to be looking for another coach next year?

We need stability almost as much as a good coach.

I was in the wait and see camp but I'm not anymore.

Bailey hasn't set a foot wrong and deserves 2 years to continue his job.

I mean what's the worst that can happen - 2 more years of sound player development, sounds pretty good to me.

What does the club do otherwise? So we're sitting 1 and 10 next year and we decide to sack Bailey, What then? Connolly? Lyon? Viney? More coaching sub commitees? less time focused on the job at hand. We can't afford to become a rabble again, we don't have that luxury.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

I think your target next year is realistic and you are right with the metrics to measure imporvements. i would add a few more and not restrict structure to the forward line for example. It wont be solely games won but obvious scoreboard performance will be factor for consideration.

When would you make that judgement Iva? How long would you wait before the media starts rolling out the obituaries? As you rightly pointed out, this is a young list and any highs from an emerging rising star will also be tempered with the inepxerience and inconsistency prevalent in younger players. This is also coupled with possible injuries as well. What's your window?

RR, I accept your points. Inconsistency of young players/bodies and injuries will be the unknown factor next year and I am more than happy to cut some slack to DB in those areas, but we need to show some real steel in our approach next year. In terms of the "window" and taking into account the unknown factors which you point out, I think DB deserves to serve the year out, even though that won't stop the jungle drums from beating beforehand, if the worse case scenario occurs. However, I think a discernible improvement needs to be realised, even if it is in the intangibles.

Another thing to remember.

Do we seriously want to be looking for another coach next year?

We need stability almost as much as a good coach.

I was in the wait and see camp but I'm not anymore.

Bailey hasn't set a foot wrong and deserves 2 years to continue his job.

I mean what's the worst that can happen - 2 more years of sound player development, sounds pretty good to me.

What does the club do otherwise? So we're sitting 1 and 10 next year and we decide to sack Bailey, What then? Connolly? Lyon? Viney? More coaching sub commitees? less time focused on the job at hand. We can't afford to become a rabble again, we don't have that luxury.

RI, again points well made. I would not like to see DB "sacked" mid-year, but he needs to show he is more than just a manager and developer of young guys. He would, imo, need to demonstrate he is a genuine tactician and motivator. As I said above, in response to Rhino, I believe DB, all things being equal, needs to serve out the full term of his contract. However, if their is no discernible improvement in skill and application, then he equally deserves to be put under the microscope. While we don't need to re-visit the destabilsing days of the past and again become a "rabble", it would be equally bad to let a problem fester, lest we upset the status quo.

In terms of G Lyon, if anybody has seen the DVD put out following last year's inaugural Debt Demolition night, Lyon's opening address to the players had "coach" written all over it. He had the players and the audience in general, in the palm of his hand. He was inspiring. If you can get hold of it, I highly recommend it be viewed. I was not at the more recent event, but I understand he was equally passionate and inspiring when addressing the group at the 'G, albeit with Jimmy as his main motivation.

In short, if there is not a marked improvement next year, accepting the points that both you and RR raised above, then the Club has a duty to examine the options for 2011.

[Wolfmother 182]

I still can't decide which way to go....

The give him another year has merit for two reasons...

1) the club has had a full rebuild which won't be completed to the end of the season... one year to prove that it has completed is a little short so the extension will give him two years to prove what he now has a competive list

2) What will he need to do to get an extension or it is only a formality??? 6-8 wins isn't really an improvement as we could of had that this year and without half our best 22 out we should be able to achieve that.... So what does he need to be showing improvement 8-10 or is next season still a year for development of the kids????

If so three full seaons of development is a long time and if we don't give him the one year extension this year then he would have to give a mimium of two at the end of 2010 which means a five year plan.... Everyone wanted Bomber Thompson head when Geelong came ninth in 2006 and the next three seasons they have won 50 out of 55 matches so four and fifth years can make a big difference....

Just a question so don't go berserk... Has the club always looked at Dean as a cull, rebuild, develop coach before handing it off to someone else???? Or do they see him as long term.... If they do it doesn't matter if he has an extension this year or next as he will coach the club for five or six season....

The reason I ask as it look like the club could of been setting this one up for G.Lyon.... Lyon could not have rebuilt the club like Dean and the MFC would of been bashed in the media due to his or another big name coach media profile.... Are they planning to hand the coaching job over to someone with a big name to get the Melbourne brand out there when we start hitting our strides.....

[rpfc 28,052]

I only want to give him 2011.

All those in favour of waiting till next year will either be guaranteeing Bailey is gone, or gets to coach in 2011, 2012, and 2013 - PURELY on what the Demons do in the first half of 2010.

That is an irresponsible way to run a club.

Give him an extra year now.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

RR, I accept your points. Inconsistency of young players/bodies and injuries will be the unknown factor next year and I am more than happy to cut some slack to DB in those areas, but we need to show some real steel in our approach next year. In terms of the "window" and taking into account the unknown factors which you point out, I think DB deserves to serve the year out, even though that won't stop the jungle drums from beating beforehand, if the worse case scenario occurs. However, I think a discernible improvement needs to be realised, even if it is in the intangibles.

In short, if there is not a marked improvement next year, accepting the points that both you and RR raised above, then the Club has a duty to examine the options for 2011.

I just dont know how you will measure that in a sufficient time frame in order to avoid trial by media. If you wait until half the year is gone and if this year is any indication the improvement really kicked in post that time. If you wait until the end of the year and I dont think you can do that then you are looking to contract him for a further three years out until 2013. Then you run the risk if Bailey flops in 2011 or 2012 you are stuffed. And in my view if you think you have to wait to the end of the year then you should already be talking to another coach because you clearly cant Bailey the support he deserves and needs

As you pointed out its a young team and much of that discernible improvement may only come late in the year and into 2011. And thats beyond your timeframe of decision making. Meanwhile in the Press, the Club becomes a whipping post that makes Richmond look like a well run machine.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

RR,

I don't think I said that at all. What I said was that, from my point of view, there would need to be a discernible improvement that goes beyond managing kids and their development, to motivation, application and improved skill levels. Even if that does not translate to a marked improvement on the ladder, as long as I see improvement in those areas, then I am happy. The intangible is to perceive a new steel and resolve within this group and the new "gun" recruits which we will get this coming draft. I accept the limitations that come with age and lack of experience.

I believe that supporters will back DB, if they see real signs of improvement in mental application, which go beyond a simple expectation that the kids we have come with a heap of credentials.

As for what the media have to say, well "let them eat cake". They have a job to do which is to sell newspapers and achieving ratings. They will do what they will do. In this case, keeping the supporters onside is what is paramount here.

[Weedster 174]

Never in the history of football has a coach with DB's record received 3 pages of discussion about a contract extension when he still has a year to go on his current one - what on earth is the hurry - he's not going anywhere ! :angry:

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Never in the history of football has a coach with DB's record received 3 pages of discussion about a contract extension when he still has a year to go on his current one - what on earth is the hurry - he's not going anywhere ! :angry:

This is a discussion forum. DB's current contract is due to expire at the end of next season. As to whether he goes on beyond that point, or leaves surely is a legitimate question for debate

[Sir Why You Little 36,668]

What happens if things start going south in 2011? What if Bailey cant take a maturing group from the development phase in 2011- 2012? What are you going to do then? Shift your head in the sand a little. You will be screwed at the most critical part of your 7 year window and paying top dollar in the process. Great outcome for a Club that's broke and living on AFL handouts. Good business. Oh dear.

You complain of MFC being a soft target and your thinking would leave MFC with all the hallmarks of a sporting marshmallow. I am sure Schwab and Co have more sense and savvy than shown here.

RR you have just written what i have been talking about., 7 year window is way too long anyway-no club has that length of success. I expect to be having a crack around 2011-12 for the cup & for 1-3 years after that.

I don't see the problem of doing contract negotiations around QB next year in order to do this.

May we please disagree & move on....

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The intangible is to perceive a new steel and resolve within this group and the new "gun" recruits which we will get this coming draft. I accept the limitations that come with age and lack of experience.

I believe that supporters will back DB, if they see real signs of improvement in mental application, which go beyond a simple expectation that the kids we have come with a heap of credentials.

As for what the media have to say, well "let them eat cake". They have a job to do which is to sell newspapers and achieving ratings. They will do what they will do. In this case, keeping the supporters onside is what is paramount here.

Your intangible may not be shown from many of the gun recruits in their first year. Indeed Watts, Blease and Strauss with the new selections will be putting in their first pre season and may or may evidence until late in the season at all.

If the media starts writing obituaries early in the season then you have no chance of keeping supporters onside when every media spot on MFC focusses on soon to be out of contract coach being sacked after a few hard losses. If this forum is any indication then they think little of improvements in mental application.

If for many supporters their mental application cant stretch beyond the banal football crud in the Herald Sun.

Richmond adopted a similar approach you wanted and they ate humble pie and looked incompetent. For someone so focussed on culture that should be an anathema. The AFL is whole media event built around a sport. Heaven help you if you cant realise the destruction they can reap in these situations. They make a hard situation untenable and unworkable. There have been enough salient examples for a more sensible approach.

RR you have just written what i have been talking about., 7 year window is way too long anyway-no club has that length of success. I expect to be having a crack around 2011-12 for the cup & for 1-3 years after that.

Tell him he is dreaming. We would be shooting the lights out (like the Hawks in 2008 and the Bombers in 1993) and working ahead of schedule. If you look at Brisbane, Port, Geelong and St Kilda, 7 years is not an unreasonable time.

So by QBW, you will be in the position to determine that we can have a serious crack at the flag the following year and the year after and that you would give Bailey 3 years to do so by then?

I'll put it all on no27 black...spin away.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Richmond adopted a similar approach you wanted and they ate humble pie and looked incompetent. For someone so focussed on culture that should be an anathema. The AFL is whole media event built around a sport. Heaven help you if you cant realise the destruction they can reap in these situations. They make a hard situation untenable and unworkable. There have been enough salient examples for a more sensible approach.

I see no analogy with Richmond in what I have said, in fact quite the opposite. They contracted a media tart in Wallace for 5 years, as his first contract and despite their early draft picks, they spun out of control over Wallace's tenure and their culture became perhaps the most toxic in the AFL. I would much rather be in the position of the MFC than the Toigs, given they will surely have to begin what we started 2 years ago and deal in a compromised draft from next year.

Again, accepting the issues of age and inexperience, I expect more in 2010 and as I can't seem to get you to understand my point, I will let you know as soon as soon I see it. The "science" of drafting has come a long way in the last 5 years and certainly it is a quantum leap from 10 years ago.

Are you ever wrong RR? I thought I was wrong once, but I realised I made a mistake with that thinking. Actually, it's not about who's wrong or right, it is about sharing perception on a bloody forum for goodness sake. Let's just bounce the pill and play on shall we.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I see no analogy with Richmond in what I have said, in fact quite the opposite. They contracted a media tart in Wallace for 5 years, as his first contract and despite their early draft picks, they spun out of control over Wallace's tenure and their culture became perhaps the most toxic in the AFL. I would much rather be in the position of the MFC than the Toigs, given they will surely have to begin what we started 2 years ago and deal in a compromised draft from next year.

The Coach was neither here nor there. The handling of the matter by Richmond was prophetic. There should be lessons learned with that. Once the Tigers were done the media picked over NM and then were start on PA. You underestimate how much of that toxicity is fueled by the media. Be warned. And the issue of the lists and where they at is neither here or nor there

Again, accepting the issues of age and inexperience, I expect more in 2010 and as I can't seem to get you to understand my point, I will let you know as soon as soon I see it. The "science" of drafting has come a long way in the last 5 years and certainly it is a quantum leap from 10 years ago.

When a coach is in the final year of his contract you dont have the luxury of doing these things in "Iva time". Your comment on drafting science is hardly relevant to determining the tenure of the coach unless you are inferring that we are recruiting an uber race of young footballers. They are still kids and are still growing. They will take more time than the window you will be given to decide on the Coach.

Are you ever wrong RR? I thought I was wrong once, but I realised I made a mistake with that thinking. Actually, it's not about who's wrong or right, it is about sharing perception on a bloody forum for goodness sake. Let's just bounce the pill and play on shall we.

Not really. :D Its all we are doing Iva sharing a perception and discussing it. Cheer up old salt.

[Sir Why You Little 36,668]

Your intangible may not be shown from many of the gun recruits in their first year. Indeed Watts, Blease and Strauss with the new selections will be putting in their first pre season and may or may evidence until late in the season at all.

If the media starts writing obituaries early in the season then you have no chance of keeping supporters onside when every media spot on MFC focusses on soon to be out of contract coach being sacked after a few hard losses. If this forum is any indication then they think little of improvements in mental application.

If for many supporters their mental application cant stretch beyond the banal football crud in the Herald Sun.

Richmond adopted a similar approach you wanted and they ate humble pie and looked incompetent. For someone so focussed on culture that should be an anathema. The AFL is whole media event built around a sport. Heaven help you if you cant realise the destruction they can reap in these situations. They make a hard situation untenable and unworkable. There have been enough salient examples for a more sensible approach.

Tell him he is dreaming. We would be shooting the lights out (like the Hawks in 2008 and the Bombers in 1993) and working ahead of schedule. If you look at Brisbane, Port, Geelong and St Kilda, 7 years is not an unreasonable time.

So by QBW, you will be in the position to determine that we can have a serious crack at the flag the following year and the year after and that you would give Bailey 3 years to do so by then?

I'll put it all on no27 black...spin away.

I expect there will be many examinations of baileys coaching,after next QBW would be the first time i would start to make evaluatons. I f i was in charge, Lets just see what the club does hey. When i raised this point i didn't expect to be still justifying my point 2 days later.

It was just an opinion-not the spanish inquisition!!

[Roost It 1,434]

RI, again points well made. I would not like to see DB "sacked" mid-year, but he needs to show he is more than just a manager and developer of young guys. He would, imo, need to demonstrate he is a genuine tactician and motivator. As I said above, in response to Rhino, I believe DB, all things being equal, needs to serve out the full term of his contract. However, if their is no discernible improvement in skill and application, then he equally deserves to be put under the microscope. While we don't need to re-visit the destabilsing days of the past and again become a "rabble", it would be equally bad to let a problem fester, lest we upset the status quo.

In terms of G Lyon, if anybody has seen the DVD put out following last year's inaugural Debt Demolition night, Lyon's opening address to the players had "coach" written all over it. He had the players and the audience in general, in the palm of his hand. He was inspiring. If you can get hold of it, I highly recommend it be viewed. I was not at the more recent event, but I understand he was equally passionate and inspiring when addressing the group at the 'G, albeit with Jimmy as his main motivation.

In short, if there is not a marked improvement next year, accepting the points that both you and RR raised above, then the Club has a duty to examine the options for 2011.

From all that I read and listen too, he's an excellent motivator. Tactically he got us to the win - loss ratio we needed and in doing so snared us 2 picks, learnt alot about the players and developed their flexiibility. I understand your queries with him and why you wouldn't resign him just yet. I just think the club needs the stability and I believe Dean has done enough to earn the right to another year, thus killing "2 birds with the one football"

[maximum bob 462]

QBW next year will be about one third of the way into our next serious crack.

Anyone calling for DB's head after that round regardless of the result is seriously delusional.

Personally, I'd sign him for three years.

[beelzebub 23,200]

Cant beleive so many miss the obvious when discussing Bailey. seasons 08/09 he has had a particualr job to do...seasons '10 and beyond is a whole different ball game.

[demon3165 2,576]

I am pissing myself laughing over this discussion, think the club has more of an idea than us on this subject. Those who think we will be a top eight side need to get their heads out of their backsides, next year we will improve a lot more and will have our ups and downs but the light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter. Try to remember we are at least 2-3 pre seasons away from being a power player in the league, as these kids slowly turn into men, just enjoy the ride we will have over the coming seasons.

[Sir Why You Little 36,668]

Cant beleive so many miss the obvious when discussing Bailey. seasons 08/09 he has had a particualr job to do...seasons '10 and beyond is a whole different ball game.

Yes exactly, which is why i would use after QBW as the first reference point for assessing The Football Dept next year.

Quite simple really.

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

I am pissing myself laughing over this discussion, think the club has more of an idea than us on this subject. Those who think we will be a top eight side need to get their heads out of their backsides, next year we will improve a lot more and will have our ups and downs but the light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter. Try to remember we are at least 2-3 pre seasons away from being a power player in the league, as these kids slowly turn into men, just enjoy the ride we will have over the coming seasons.

You don't have to be a power to make the 8. Carlton and Brisbane aren't totally convincing. The battle for 8th has been a joke, Hawthorn and Essendon have been ordinary for most of the year. I think we can make the 8 as long as we keep a realitvely fit list for the year. I don't think we are as far behind the rest of the field as people think but I don't think we should extend Bailey's contract because people think we are going to improve. I want to see it first.

[e25 5]

You don't have to be a power to make the 8. Carlton and Brisbane aren't totally convincing. The battle for 8th has been a joke, Hawthorn and Essendon have been ordinary for most of the year. I think we can make the 8 as long as we keep a realitvely fit list for the year. I don't think we are as far behind the rest of the field as people think but I don't think we should extend Bailey's contract because people think we are going to improve. I want to see it first.

So we follow your plan

You conveniently ignore the fact that, unless we come out and win at least 40% of our games before QBW, he'll be fired whether he deserves to be or not.

The media are a flesh-eating virus and will leave an unusable carcass of a coach if we don't deal with the situation in an intelligent manner.

[demon3165 2,576]

You don't have to be a power to make the 8. Carlton and Brisbane aren't totally convincing. The battle for 8th has been a joke, Hawthorn and Essendon have been ordinary for most of the year. I think we can make the 8 as long as we keep a realitvely fit list for the year. I don't think we are as far behind the rest of the field as people think but I don't think we should extend Bailey's contract because people think we are going to improve. I want to see it first.

Being a power is about being in the top four constantly not just making the eight, big difference.

Edited August 26, 2009 by demon3165

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

Being a power is about being in the top four constantly not just making the eight, big difference.

You wrote that we had no chance of making that top 8 next year. I disagree cause I think there is little difference between 6th and 16th. I agree that we are a couple of years away from making the top 4.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

You wrote that we had no chance of making that top 8 next year. I disagree cause I think there is little difference between 6th and 16th. I agree that we are a couple of years away from making the top 4.

Do you think so?

There is about 9 wins and about 40points of % between Adelaide and Melbourne.

But you think that we are a couple of years away from top 4.

There is only one game difference between 4th and 6th.

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

So we follow your plan

You conveniently ignore the fact that, unless we come out and win at least 40% of our games before QBW, he'll be fired whether he deserves to be or not.

No Queen's Birthday is when I would start looking at his contract. I wouldn't sack him during the year unless the club went seriously backwards. If we are say 2 and 9 by then than I would wait til the end of the year to see how we go. If we are 4 and 7 then I would seriously consider giving him a 1 or 2 year extention. If we are 0 and 11 then I wouldn't worry about looking at it at all.

If Bailey can get us above the bottom 4 with a minimum of 6 to 8 wins then he deserves another contract, but if we keep playing like we have been playing in the past 3 years then it's time to find a new coach.