Axis of Bob said:

Ever the populist, Hanna.

But don't worry, Hanna, the kids will still love you because you're loud and it means that they don't have to think for themselves.

I've never expressed a view in my life to be popular, and doubt that that's a term that comes readily to most on here if asked for their opinion about my offerings.

Glad to see that you bothered to answer the question, I thought you'd got stage fright. As for "kids" ? Why try to denigrate posters on Demonland ? I doubt most are kids. I thought it would be interesting to get supporters views; and you've given yours. You're a pretty typical Melb. supporter. You may or may not represent the popular view on here, it will be interesting to see how the poll goes, but I'd suggest that you represent the majority in the street. And that's OK.

Btw, why am I "loud" ? It must be your own ears ringing, Bob You're best posting in forums where you all agree with each other. I'm sure there are a few around.

Btw, how's that effective small forward line of the Bulldogs going ?

I'll mark you down as a b)

NB: nice little exercise. What do you reckon Leigh Matthews would say if he was asked the question ? Clubs may pander to members with nice little blurbs on what they stand for, but no-one within a footy dept. would have any other view than a premiership being the single reason clubs exist.

  torpedo said:

Care to clarify that you are referring to football clubs, not AFL clubs?

It's an unofficial Melbourne Football Club supporters forum. I'm talking AFL footy.

I think that you need to look at the reason for creating the club in the first place.

Was the MFC originally created because the founders wanted to win premierships? Doubt it. It was a boys' club and a way for the cricketers to stay fit over winter.

Then think about the big issue currently - GC17 and WS18. Is their creation being driven out of a desire by their stakeholders to win premierships? No way. $$$$$

What the hell are some people on about?!

If winning a flag in the AFL isn't the single effing thing we think about, why don't we just go and play in the VFL and enjoy ourselves?

We wouldn't have to pay anyone and the fans could play, we could all get [censored] afterwards and go on about how we much we loved playing in the red and the blue.

We get the players, the coaches, the recruiting staff, the facilities, the members, the sponsors, and the PR blokes towards one elusive end: A PREMIERSHIP.

And yes, it's still enjoyable to go and watch Liam Jurrah play when we are losing, but if I didn't think he would apart of an MFC Premiership team I wouldn't bother.

Harden up, and get your priorities in order...

In the AFL, the ultimate aim is a premiership. But you can't plan or develop strategies for that, because it depends on so much that's out of the club's control. So a club can only work towards improving its performance as much as it possibly can, and puts in place plans and strategies to achieve that.

So the Casey development and alignment is a strategy to improve performance. Player development is to improve performance. Getting the right draft picks - Scully - is to improve performance. None of these things can guarantee a premiership.

I think the ultimate goal for all of us is a Dees premiership. But what floats my boat week to week is to see signs of improved performance. That's why I enjoy every game - not because it brings us one week closer to an eventual premiership, but because of the signs that we're going to get better. The Swans game, for example, had no bearing at all on whether we'll win a premiership in 2013 or not. But it was great to see Jordie, Morton, Cheney, Jurrah play so well, to see Stef do so well in the ruck cvontests to at least hold his own against one of the best (though Jolly killed us around the ground), and dammit, even to see Juice & Miller improve everything except their kicking.

  Hannibal said:

Unfortunately, it's your type of misunderstanding that epitomises this club and reflects its lack of success. It's also a view that embarrasses me and makes me sometimes cringe around MFC supporters. That you cannot understand the sole reason for clubs existing is telling."

Which is why I think you really need to tone down this sort of gratuitous & unnecessary abuse against anybody who doesn't see things exactly the same way that you do. Express your opinion, by all means, but abuse of this type doesn't advance your argument one bit. You do make some good points for your argument, but play the ball and not the man.

Of course, I voted ©. Of course the ultimate aim is a premiership, but it's not the only aim, or the only reason I follow the Dees. We are actually allowed to enjoy our connection with the club without it depending wholly on when we win our next premiership.

  rpfc said:

What the hell are some people on about?!

If winning a flag in the AFL isn't the single effing thing we think about, why don't we just go and play in the VFL and enjoy ourselves?

We wouldn't have to pay anyone and the fans could play, we could all get pissed afterwards and go on about how we much we loved playing in the red and the blue.

We get the players, the coaches, the recruiting staff, the facilities, the members, the sponsors, and the PR blokes towards one elusive end: A PREMIERSHIP.

And yes, it's still enjoyable to go and watch Liam Jurrah play when we are losing, but if I didn't think he would apart of an MFC Premiership team I wouldn't bother.

Harden up, and get your priorities in order...

Are we asking "why the club exists" or "why I continue to follow the club"? I think you've answered the second question, but the first question is the one asked in the poll. FWIW I wouldn't bother following this club if I thought a premiership was permanently out of reach either.

My answer to the actual question: Football clubs exist as an outlet for a bunch of competitive blokes to be able to put their skills to the test against the best. The best and most primary benchmark of this is obviously a premiership, but I don't reckon that's why they exist, it's just something they should be striving for since they do exist.

  Akum said:

Which is why I think you really need to tone down this sort of gratuitous & unnecessary abuse against anybody who doesn't see things exactly the same way that you do. Express your opinion, by all means, but abuse of this type doesn't advance your argument one bit. You do make some good points for your argument, but play the ball and not the man.

What abuse ? I don't consider any of that "abuse".

And I'll please myself how I post, Claude. Obviously with consideration to the rules of the site.

  CarnTheDees said:

I think that you need to look at the reason for creating the club in the first place.

The club was formed in 1858, but the VFL competition started in 1896 (I think). Once they entered the league they made a decision to compete for the VFL premiership cup. It has to be the sole reason all clubs exist, otherwise why compete ?

  Axis of Bob said:

At no point does it talk about winning a premiership. The objectives of the Brisbane Lions are, in summary:

- to participate in the highest level of football competition in the country,

- to promote AFL football by operating a team out of Brisbane,

- to serve the best interests of the club's members and

- to operate legally.

As it should be. Good post.

The way I will define my position is to make a distinction between 'the sole purpose' of a football club and the number one ambition of a football club.

I believe winning a premiership (or premierships) is the number one aim of any football club, but it is not the sole reason for their existence. Football clubs exist and survive in their communities because they provide many different things for its members and the people in those communities.

The issue is more complex than I think is being suggested. I believe that to evaluate a football club merely on the number of premierships it has won, is a shallow analysis. Yes, it is the best way to evaluate onfield success of a club but football clubs are about more than just what takes place on the field.

I want to win a premiership more than anything and I expect the football club to make decisions that will make this event more likely than not. As a football club that plays football in a given league, I expect this to be the ultimate ambition and key objective of the club.

But I would also be disappointed if the club were so narrow in its sense of purpose to see itself as merely being about winning premierships. Football clubs can and do achieve great things in their communities. As a part of the Australian social landscape, football clubs are important institutions whose influence and impact go well beyond the playing arena.

I have trouble with the word "sole". If it was "primary" I'd agree, a flag is what we strive for and every decision we make is directed towards it.

Old55 hit it on the head when he said " Maybe it's a pity that most of us are unable to change our allegiance based on which club might best fulfill our aims. "

The fact that we can't seems to indicate to me that whilst the primary reason we compete is for a flag there is more to our support than that.

In the EPL the majority of clubs can't win a "flag". Why do they still have supporters if this is the case?

And why do all of us watch football games where MFC is not involved? I'd suggest it's because we love the game and suggestions that "I'd give it away if I thought we'd never win a flag" sound a little extreme to me.

Interesting thread H. You and I have discussed this issue at length and I doubt either has changed our view.

FWIW I don't see one group as "better" than the other and I'd suggest that Melbourne supporters reflect the spectrum of any club.

Einstein: I was typing as you posted. We make the same point.

  torpedo said:

How is that relevant to my point you highlighted? I don't understand...

  Quote

"nobody could give a rats arse how many premierships they have been involved with, least of all 'judging' them by it."

  Quote

I think you are confusing people who value the club and its people more than a premiership cup itself as people who don't give a stuff, which seems very misguided.

The question is why do football clubs exist within the AFL ? (or what is the essence of a football club's existence?)

You ask each of the CEO's and FD's of each of the clubs, that very question.

They all have a common denominator......their sole purpose is to be successful and to ultimately win a Premiership. It's that simple.

Given all the recent MFC initiatives, many of which are in no way shape or form geared towards premierships, I can't see how "winning a flag is the sole reason for a club's existence" could possibly hold true. It's as one-eyed and self serving as the old 'football is for men only' line.

  Hannibal said:

The club was formed in 1858, but the VFL competition started in 1896 (I think). Once they entered the league they made a decision to compete for the VFL premiership cup. It has to be the sole reason all clubs exist, otherwise why compete ?

How can the sole reason a club exists be to win something that didn't exist when it was formed?

what are examples of MFC initiatives not geared to winning premierships?

There was a clue in the 'men only' comment for one example.

  rpfc said:

What the hell are some people on about?!

...

Harden up, and get your priorities in order...

I just had to laugh at this post.

  youami said:

What are examples of MFC initiatives not geared to winning premierships?

Community work. Celebration of past players, officials, etc. Family Days & footy clinics.

  High Tower said:

The question is why do football clubs exist within the AFL ?

No its not. I understand what your position is in relation to the OP.

Did the overflow of emotion regarding Jimmy Stynes have anything to do with winning a Premiership? If the sole purpose of a football club is Premierships, then surely the club should have quietly moved him on, brought the next person in and continued head on towards the goal. Why waste energy on it if it doesn't bring us closer to our "sole" purpose?

AFL clubs and sport in general is about a hell of a lot more than just reaching the ultimate sucess IMO.

  youami said:

what are examples of MFC initiatives not geared to winning premierships?

Demon Heartland

  torpedo said:

Community work. Celebration of past players, officials, etc. Family Days & footy clinics.

Indirectly, they are.

  youami said:

what are examples of MFC initiatives not geared to winning premierships?

There's tens: Pink Lady Day, players visiting sick kids in hospital, assisting player welfare after football ...

Sorry I had to read your whole post, Hanna, until I finally found you produce something of an argument. Here it is:

  Quote

NB: nice little exercise. What do you reckon Leigh Matthews would say if he was asked the question ? Clubs may pander to members with nice little blurbs on what they stand for, but no-one within a footy dept. would have any other view than a premiership being the single reason clubs exist.

Leigh Matthews was employed by the Board of Directors of the Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club and was not a member. The Board of Directors would have given him his own objectives which they felt would have helped the Club to achieve its objectives as stated in the club's constitution. All of the members of the football department are contracted and are answerable to those contracts and the clauses stated within those contracts. But those contracts are created by the Board in order to help the club achieve its objectives as stated in the constitution. Each contract, from CEO to Coach to Physio to Membership Officer etc, is different and designed so that the sum of them, with the Board's guidance, can attempt to best achieve the club's objectives as stated in the constitution.

The constitution is not a fluffy blurb created to appease members, the constitution is the base document that guides what a club can and can't do. It allows us to elect representatives to the Board, who then go and run the club in the best interests of its members according to the constitution.

You make a very emotional argument and I admire your passion.

So, in short, it doesn't matter what Leigh Matthews thinks his job was because he was employed with a far narrower role statement that was created in order to help the Board achieve the club's stated aims and objectives as set out in the constitution.

Again I ask......

If the AFL awarded Melbourne the premiership this year in exchange for us relinquishing our AFL licence, would you do it? Would the club do it?

  High Tower said:

Indirectly, they are.

Sometimes but not always, often any positive flow on effect is purely coincidental. I don't think premierships are at the back of the club's minds when they send players along to a hospital to visit kids dying of cancer.

So clearly that is not an initiative geared towards winning premierships. It is an initiative of a football club, doing what a football clubs does, bringing people together and helping out in the community.