Green regularly left me with the same feeling Dunn does now. Green was a classic frontrunner, contests were not his thing, nor did he have the body to really impart a physical presence, to his credit he turned this around. I'm backing Dunn to do the same.

Green has always been brave in marking contests, even in his first year - 2,000. He wasn't brave to the extent that he marked fearlessly, as he does now, but he always put his body on the line in marking contests. Dunn never has, in fact he's avoided contact. Despite your "feelings" there's been a big difference. And I'm backing it won't change. But here's the kicker, I don't much care if it does. He's a very ordinary footballer - brave or not brave.

Green has always been brave in marking contests, even in his first year - 2,000. He wasn't brave to the extent that he marked fearlessly, as he does now, but he always put his body on the line in marking contests. Dunn never has, in fact he's avoided contact. Despite your "feelings" there's been a big difference. And I'm backing it won't change. But here's the kicker, I don't much care if it does. He's a very ordinary footballer - brave or not brave.

Saying Green has always been brave in marking contests is simply false. He heard footsteps. We can argue about who was "more brave' but it doesn't change the fact that, as Brad green has proved, this can change.

Saying Green has always been brave in marking contests is simply false. He heard footsteps. We can argue about who was "more brave' but it doesn't change the fact that, as Brad green has proved, this can change.

I don't agee. We're apparently not going to sway one another.

One things for certain though, Dunn is a very disappointing first round draft pick who hasn't found a position in the side after 5 years. I've rarely seen anyone as reticent as Dunn when contested marking contact is perceived. It's too embedded in his makeup. But as I said, I don't really care. I've wasted enough time tap tap tapping away about a very average footballer.

Oh, I agree on PJ. He is one of my favourites, because has done the courageous things in the past (I'd point to the shoulder injury he received on the wing against Sydney a few years back). However, this season he's been dreadful and has struggled to find form. The Eagles game was probably his best game so far, this year. He has great potential, as a second ruck and up forward (the Collingwood game in '07 is an example of what he could do up forward--obviously needs to fix up his kicking for goal though). Persist with PJ, but I still can't believe we traded Jolly and not Jamar.

Firstly, I worry about footballers particularly ruckman who after 7 years cant ruck and dont consistently physical impose themselves on the contest. And some are still talking "potential". I think at 25yo the footy department know where PJ is at.

In respect of Jolly there was not a choice between Jamar and Jolly. We traded Jolly because he cracked the sads and wanted to leave because he could not get nor justify game time against the reigning AA ruckman at the time Jeff White. Had we not traded Jolly when we did for a first round pick, he would have worked through the PSD the following year and we would have got nothing.

To be honest, I'd say a lot of our guys were front runners. Green wasn''t the only one. I'd stick Brucey in this category at times, as well.

They are not in the same category as Dunn and Green certainly wasn't a front runner. Hannibal sums Green up pretty well.

Green has played forward, midfield and over the last few years, as the sweeping backman. As a result he has not been playing as a 'frontman' in any sense of the word for some time. Arguably he played forward and midfield when our backline was stacked wth bigger, older and more experienced players. As they have left and green grew up, he assumed his current role. I don't remember Green hearing footsteps (and I'm sure he must have because almost every footballer has at some point according to R Walls in that excellent article of 1-2 weeks ago).

Green has always been brave in marking contests, even in his first year - 2,000

Correct.

You don't dominate in finals in your first season if you hear footsteps and squib contests.

Green never imposed himself on the contest physically, because as a forward, he didn't need to. He has the marking ability to outmark his opponent without the need to be overly physical. Robbo is the same, doesn't need to impose himself physically, but you wouldn't question his bravery.

As Green progressed into the midfield (or as a loose man in defence), he found himself in a lot more contested, disputed situations, where he had to put his body on the line more often, which he did.

Dunn has played 2 seasons as a midfielder, and is still finding it hard to cope with the physical nature of the game. Clearly this is a mental issue, as physically he is well developed, and would be on the bigger side for a midfielder (in height certainly).

In respect of Jolly there was not a choice between Jamar and Jolly. We traded Jolly because he cracked the sads and wanted to leave because he could not get nor justify game time against the reigning AA ruckman at the time Jeff White. Had we not traded Jolly when we did for a first round pick, he would have worked through the PSD the following year and we would have got nothing.

I understand there wasn't a choice between he and Jamar. My point was, however that Jolly is and always has been the far superior player out of the two. To be honest, I would have kept White over Jamar...

Correct.

You don't dominate in finals in your first season if you hear footsteps and squib contests.

Green never imposed himself on the contest physically, because as a forward, he didn't need to. He has the marking ability to outmark his opponent without the need to be overly physical. Robbo is the same, doesn't need to impose himself physically, but you wouldn't question his bravery.

As Green progressed into the midfield (or as a loose man in defence), he found himself in a lot more contested, disputed situations, where he had to put his body on the line more often, which he did.

Dunn has played 2 seasons as a midfielder, and is still finding it hard to cope with the physical nature of the game. Clearly this is a mental issue, as physically he is well developed, and would be on the bigger side for a midfielder (in height certainly).

Green played one good quarter in the 2000 finals, hardly domination. It's also incorrect to say that a forward doesn't need to impose himself physically. The fact is he developed his game, firstly by developing his body and then by commiting himself to the ball and the contest. This is not how he played in his early years. Dunn will be given every chance to develop this desire for the contest, which is possibly why he was made a tagger last year. I don't disagree that, as yet, he doesn't commit to the contest. I do however disagree that this desire for the contest can't be learned by a player. Dunn may well surprise you yet.

My point was, however that Jolly is and always has been the far superior player out of the two.

No kidding. Get out of here.

Who was stating the alternative view to that and what relevance is Jolly to the conversation about our rucks now?

To be honest, I would have kept White over Jamar...

To be honest, you would have to wonder why? Jamar gave more in half a season than White did all last year. White was finished and we held onto him for too long.

................................... Green was a classic frontrunner, contests were not his thing, nor did he have the body to really impart a physical presence, to his credit he turned this around. ........................

Disagree! ........... the 2000 Qualifying Final against Carlton comes to mind. Greeny put his 19 year old body on the line several times and was instrumental in Melbourne's come from behind win. It was his first season.

Dunn is a serial offender. He's at his worst going for marks when he expects contact, but he's also been found wanting contesting loose balls at pace. You've seen only one instance this year, whilst I've noted many.

More to the point, when a player has this flaw entrenched in their makeup, like I believe Dunn has, he will avoid certain situations so as not to highlight or expose this said weakness. So it effects their ability to get involved, or make the play.

He's a very disappointing first round pick and will find it extremely difficult to make a position his own, or to ever cement a place in the side. The young talent coming through behind him only makes it tougher. He's not a KPP, he's not a quality midfielder, and he doesn't use the ball exceptionally well. His only chance is as a hard running third tall forward - like his debut year. But I'm dubious to say the least.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Great post.

As was Brad Green in his early days. This trait can be learnt and with the size he now has he will hopefully add it to his game. He's young and I haven't written him off just yet.

Green has never had the issues Dunn has with expecting contact in marking situations. Early in Green's career he may have been perceived as an 'outside' player, but even then, his courage in the air was unquestionable.

Dunn is one of the players at Melbourne that will be delisted at either seasons end or when their contract expires

Absolutley no point in holding onto players who are mediocre at best

Thats going backwards ..................Richmond anyone ?

Saying Green has always been brave in marking contests is simply false. He heard footsteps. We can argue about who was "more brave' but it doesn't change the fact that, as Brad green has proved, this can change.

It astounds me that this fallacy still sticks.....

Geez I thought opposition supporters were ignorant of Brads talents.

And how does beating up on Green help defend Dunn?

No kidding. Get out of here.

Who was stating the alternative view to that and what relevance is Jolly to the conversation about our rucks now?

Remincising.

To be honest, you would have to wonder why? Jamar gave more in half a season than White did all last year. White was finished and we held onto him for too long.

I won't even bother arguing that one.

We still have 15 or so rounds to judge Dunn. If keeps performing like he is well something needs to be done about where he is going to play his footy next year.

But If he steps up and shows improvement I think Dunn can add good depth into out future side.

But If he steps up and shows improvement I think Dunn can add good depth into out future side.

Depth evolves, you can't target or earmark players for depth. I'm also a believer in turning the list over when the need arrives and getting kids into the club - something the club has been poor at this decade (save the last couple of years).

The facts are, Dunn in his fifth season is yet to make a position his own in the worst team in the league. The fact that he was a first round draft pick in exchange for Jolly makes it that little bit more bitter.

If you can't make the hard decisions on a player like Dunn you'll never make them about anyone. Unfortunately, I believe he has a year left on his contract. If I could get a cold pie for him at year's end I'd do the deal.

This softness perception is Green is wrong, even in his early years.

He would still take grabs in a marking contest and grab the ball when he had to.

The difference then to now was that early in his career he used to play for free kicks too much and I think this is where much of this perception stems from. When he grabed the ball in a contest and he got tackled he would often throw his head back like he had been shot. But he never squibed the contest, there is a big difference.

It astounds me that this fallacy still sticks.....

Geez I thought opposition supporters were ignorant of Brads talents.

And how does beating up on Green help defend Dunn?

It's not a fallacy.

I am not ignorant of his talents, I just watched his early games and saw a player who didn't like the hard ball.

I am not beating up on Green. I mearly used his ability to become a far more willing competitor to suggest that Dunn too can add this to his game. To say that because Dunn currently shirks contests he always will and it won't change is completely wrong, as Brad Green has proved,

Depth evolves, you can't target or earmark players for depth. I'm also a believer in turning the list over when the need arrives and getting kids into the club - something the club has been poor at this decade (save the last couple of years).

The facts are, Dunn in his fifth season is yet to make a position his own in the worst team in the league. The fact that he was a first round draft pick in exchange for Jolly makes it that little bit more bitter.

If you can't make the hard decisions on a player like Dunn you'll never make them about anyone. Unfortunately, I believe he has a year left on his contract. If I could get a cold pie for him at year's end I'd do the deal.

Absolutely spot on.

QUOTE (Hannabal @ May 15 2009, 07:58 AM)

Depth evolves, you can't target or earmark players for depth.

Absolutely spot on.

And yet you believe that Valenti was retained as a rookie purely for "depth" reasons. You flip flop when the argument suits you.

QUOTE (Hannabal @ May 15 2009, 07:58 AM)

Depth evolves, you can't target or earmark players for depth.

And yet you believe that Valenti was retained as a rookie purely for "depth" reasons. You flip flop when the argument suits you.

Are you ready for a barrage from RR.. You'd want to be ready.

TBH, IMO you've picked this out to suit yours. It's called 'knit picking' and doesn't carry much weight.

Good call/Bad call?

Bad call Mo.

QUOTE (Hannabal @ May 15 2009, 07:58 AM)

Depth evolves, you can't target or earmark players for depth.

And yet you believe that Valenti was retained as a rookie purely for "depth" reasons. You flip flop when the argument suits you.

No. He was retained to give him an opportunity to show if he was good enough for AFL. I have said this many times on this forum. Your petty snipe is all the more stupid because you have ignorantly attacked me on this forum for stating that I dont think Valenti is up to AFL standard. If I have stated that and you have had your juvenile and misguided barb at me for that why would I be keeping Valenti on for "depth"? I leave the flip flopping to your feverish little mind.

Its a pity you dont take the time to understand another person's argument particularly when you struggle to make a coherent and thoughtful contribution yourself.

Keep up the good work.

P.S High Tower - You're right. But what's new about Mo doing that?

Are you ready for a barrage from RR.. You'd want to be ready.

Took longer to come than I thought but who could resist such an opening, certaihly not RR.

Green played one good quarter in the 2000 finals, hardly domination. It's also incorrect to say that a forward doesn't need to impose himself physically. The fact is he developed his game, firstly by developing his body and then by commiting himself to the ball and the contest. This is not how he played in his early years. Dunn will be given every chance to develop this desire for the contest, which is possibly why he was made a tagger last year. I don't disagree that, as yet, he doesn't commit to the contest. I do however disagree that this desire for the contest can't be learned by a player. Dunn may well surprise you yet.

I'm glad your not coach Roost it, It's this type [censored] talk that keeps average players on a list too long. It's people like you, That like they way Bate goes about it. Listen up up mate and I'll spell it out for you. DUNN & BATE were taken at picks 13 & 15 in the 2004 draft HOW LONG !!!!! does a midfielder/forward need to develop THEY ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH !!!!!!!

Go back to bed simple.