Will the 'River' flow again in 2009?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

It's a pointless argument in reality as whatever anyone thinks is true, we won't really know one way or the other until we see him perform.

Agree and that is the whole point.

.... you really depress me sometimes with your negative views.

Chill. You need to get out more?

[Rogue 585]

IMO Rivers has played KPP roles in the past. I consider him a KPP player. But he can play other roles for the team including being our 3rd tall.

I think that someone else - whether it be Carroll, Holland, Nicholson, etc - has generally picked up the KPF's for the opposition, at least as plan 'A'.

Rivers tends to take the less dangerous tall forwards and then provide assistance to the other defenders.

Always interesting to see how others see the game differently though

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Agree and that is the whole point.

Chill. You need to get out more?

Are you ever wrong RR? I thought I was once, but I found out I made a mistake.

[Rogue 585]

I thought I was once, but I found out I made a mistake.

An old'un but a good'un.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

An old'un but a good'un.

Well.....I am old. I can remember being in the Grey Smith stand in '64

[H_T 3,036]

I think that someone else - whether it be Carroll, Holland, Nicholson, etc - has generally picked up the KPF's for the opposition, at least as plan 'A'.

Rivers tends to take the less dangerous tall forwards and then provide assistance to the other defenders.

Always interesting to see how others see the game differently though

Effectively we do agree. I recognise Rivers tends to take the less dangerous tall forwards whilst providing assistance to other defenders, its this latter assistance role that he is so good at because he reads the play so well and comes in with well timed spoils or nullify's the oppositions spot kicks to a target.

He has at times played the KPP role too. Even though as you say, more often than not, a Carroll, Holland or Nicho at times went to the opp's plan 'A' forward. However, under ND he seemed more effective in the 'assisting defence role'.

Just thought I would clarify this, as I think we are more on the same wavelength, than not - even though I still consider Rivers a KPP.

[Rogue 585]

Effectively we do agree. I recognise Rivers tends to take the less dangerous tall forwards whilst providing assistance to other defenders, its this latter assistance role that he is so good at because he reads the play so well and comes in with well timed spoils or nullify's the oppositions spot kicks to a target.

Yep, agreed.

Do you think Harley plays a similar role for Geelong?

Just thought I would clarify this, as I think we are more on the same wavelength, than not - even though I still consider Rivers a KPP.

Understood

Well.....I am old. I can remember being in the Grey Smith stand in '64

Excellent - that would have been a good day. Hopefully you see another flag soon!

[H_T 3,036]

Yep, agreed.

Do you think Harley plays a similar role for Geelong?

Definitely. Yes. With Scarlett and Taylor the 'A' team role (ie. the Carroll, Holland, Nicho roles). What Geelong also have is Milburn and Mackie - they seem to do what Harley does too. Gee they have great defensive options...not to forget at times Selwood dropping back occassionally to cut off supply.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

How is it being pedantic to talk about what type of player Rivers is after you put forward an opinion and gave some reasons for it?

While no debate ever 'needs to be done' on this forum it'd be a pretty boring place if all assertions went unchallenged.

You dismissed the notion that Rivers is a third tall based on some factors that don't a) exclude him from playing a third-tall role, or B) mean he must be a KPP.

In fact, some of the attributes you asserted that Rivers has are qualities you want in a third-tall (ie. courage and reading the play).

I think it's fair enough for me to ask why you feel those qualities mean he must be a KPP when I don't see him in that way...

In fact, I'd probably use factors that you used to reinforce your point that Rivers was a KPP to argue the opposite, so I was interested to hear more about why you felt they meant he wasn't a third-tall.

Garland can play small - he's played on Farmer - and I think he can also play forward.

Not really aimed at you... I like to give RR soft but significant jabs in the ribs, just to keep him honest, and to try to lighten the poor bloke up...

That said, my original post was a passing comment on how I believe "third tall" doesn't begin to describe the role he plays. I've seen him repeatedly stand toe to toe with some terrifying opponents... in games where I gave him no chance, yet again and again he proves his worth by either beating his opponent or taking them out of the game. And all this when not playing as third tall...

I get frustrated when I hear people say he's limited to this role, as if it's the only job he'll ever do at MFC.

My point about the pedantics was that certain posters see someone get excited about a player, and feel the need to disagree with EVERYTHING they see, even when it contradicts other disagreements they've made in other threads.

So back on his strengths and weaknesses. What strengths does a KP defender need that Rivers doesn't have? He has strength, he marks an opponent beautifully, corralls them, takes them up the ground or deep if that's what his coach wants... At the end of the day Rogue, there are plenty of his strengths that are good for BOTH jobs. My comment is a response to the fact that he has played on KP forwards and beaten them.. more often than not. That's probably the biggest reason 'd be confident if he took a dangerous forward... or a forward who'd been dominant to half-time. He's done it superbly in the past.

[H_T 3,036]

So back on his strengths and weaknesses. What strengths does a KP defender need that Rivers doesn't have? He has strength, he marks an opponent beautifully, corralls them, takes them up the ground or deep if that's what his coach wants... At the end of the day Rogue, there are plenty of his strengths that are good for BOTH jobs. My comment is a response to the fact that he has played on KP forwards and beaten them.. more often than not. That's probably the biggest reason 'd be confident if he took a dangerous forward... or a forward who'd been dominant to half-time. He's done it superbly in the past.

This is along the same views I expressed Rogue. Its why I consider him a KPP, despite the some roles he has played down back - because he is so effective in this manner.

Good description here, Dappa.

[Rogue 585]

Not really aimed at you... I like to give RR soft but significant jabs in the ribs, just to keep him honest, and to try to lighten the poor bloke up...

My point about the pedantics was that certain posters see someone get excited about a player, and feel the need to disagree with EVERYTHING they see, even when it contradicts other disagreements they've made in other threads.

Fair enough.

I'm sure I've been consistent in my opinion of Rivers (very good player that plays as third-tall rather than KPD).

So back on his strengths and weaknesses. What strengths does a KP defender need that Rivers doesn't have? He has strength

I'm not sure he does have the strength to go with some of bigger guys out there.

That's probably why guys like Carroll, Holland, and Nicho have been the first to get the big jobs in the past.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I'm not sure he does have the strength to go with some of bigger guys out there.

That's probably why guys like Carroll, Holland, and Nicho have been the first to get the big jobs in the past.

Yup. And as I said this is really the only major concern with him I reckon... when it comes to match-ups. I don't like the idea of him leading against Fev out of the square, or wresting Brown in it. In the past when he's marking them he pushes them wide, takes them up the ground, plays smart.

People talk a lot about the death of the power forward these days. I think the stories are exaggerrated, but I think there's some truth to it. There's only a few big guys I really fear, and it's not like there's one in every team. Many of them have resting ruckmen, or Brett Burton types, which Jared could outbody.

In any case, the point is moot unless he A) gets on the park, or B) plays one of the roles we talk about here.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Bring it in Dappa.. C'mon.

?????

Bring in the what now? I must have missed something.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Yup. And as I said this is really the only major concern with him I reckon... when it comes to match-ups. I don't like the idea of him leading against Fev out of the square, or wresting Brown in it.

I think that is the concern about Rivers and it limits the players he can play on as KPP.

In the past when he's marking them he pushes them wide, takes them up the ground, plays smart.

If either his opponent is making the play or the opposition have possession of the ball he wont doing much of that. Its great he does that but that he can make the play typically as a third up KPP. I just cant see him doing that on a Riewoldt, Fev or Buddy.

[_becks_ 35]

I think that someone else - whether it be Carroll, Holland, Nicholson, etc - has generally picked up the KPF's for the opposition, at least as plan 'A'.

Rivers tends to take the less dangerous tall forwards and then provide assistance to the other defenders.

I think Martin will have to play on the 'monster' forwards now he is the biggest out of Riv, Warnock and Garland. Don't forget Frawley either (although must admit I haven't seen much to keep the faith).