Some might be thinking my questioning is indicating Im pessimistic about where we are. As Redleg outlines..its been a long haul to where we are..and where we are is defying the criticc and quite heartening to all of us here really I should imagine.

1) we're still here...lol ( well no laughing matter..lol )

2) we are improving. its just the train aint leaving no station !!!

3) the building blocks are being put into position...just its frustrating that so much must have been done twice or three times already. Hopefully this redundancy is a thing of the past

But we are currently sponsorless and like Warnock its going to depend very much on the outlook and probably maturity of these viewpoints come potential partners and players. Were a bit of a junk yard gem.On th surface we dont look to brilliant but with some attention and some new parts ..well look out all you who laugh now, we're coming back. It wont be glamourous but we arent in this to be also rans any more.

But it will take time. and I can fully understand why people/players may not take a shine to us.

It took me a while when considering how , if after a lead role etc , hecould pick Carlton. Despite what many wil lconsider the obvious ...the carlton effect etc.. We have alsway sthought in this matter that he WONT play a major rucking role. What if he will. It must therefore occur that Kruezer will change his..or multirole more..Good for Carlton...no so much for the rest of us..lol..Whther we wont them to , liek them to etc teh Bluebaggers are getting their act together.

instead of whinging and whining about how unfair the world is..oh woe is us.. WE need to get on with things. ..We need to be ruthless and pragmatic in our dealings etc.

We often comment that this player or that player must step up in order for the team to develop. Im going to suggest the very same thing of the club ( and indeed whatever we do in this ) the club has shown potential, has shown some very real talent...but just as a player this may not be good enough alone..SO to it is with the Club..In Season 09 from head to toe the MFC has to step up and not only play the footy it thinks its capable of...but the CLUB needs to be the CLUB it talks the talk of.

If we are to climb the lader we must become relevent at al levels. every T crossed and i dotted !!

I dont really care for the way some of the changes have been brought about, but hey are here. Well..Let the CLUB get on with it. Theres a great deal to do MFC, and yes it will take time. However momentum can be a fleeting thing if the mighty wheel slows. Keep pushing everyone. we stil lhave some pain ahead.

Could we have used Warnock ?? Of course

Do we carry on regardless and refocus efforts.. ?? Of course

Go Dees

Yeah, I'm over it now... but it hurts... bring on the trade and draft periods i say!

PS. BB - have a question for you, here's the link if you haven't read it yet.

Question is "Will this have an impact on the mfc?"

http://forums.demonland.com/index.php?showtopic=11803

He chose Carlton, oh well. We need to move on. Chris Judd he ain't. Melbourne supporters need to stop feeling sorry for themselves and the quicker the better. If players don't want to come to the MFC, so be it.

It's interesting that we fielded about 10 of our young guns into a meeting to lure Warnock.

I bet all Carlton did was get C.Judd or D.Pratt to get on the dog and bone and persuade him to come over and play for the Blues. Job done.

It's interesting that we fielded about 10 of our young guns into a meeting to lure Warnock.

I bet all Carlton did was get C.Judd or D.Pratt to get on the dog and bone and persuade him to come over and play for the Blues. Job done.

Warnock ran straight to Carlton as soon as he saw the dreaded Power Point presentation.

It's interesting that we fielded about 10 of our young guns into a meeting to lure Warnock.

I bet all Carlton did was get C.Judd or D.Pratt to get on the dog and bone and persuade him to come over and play for the Blues. Job done.

If that doesn't at least interest a young player, then Carltank, or anyone else, are welcome to him.

IMO, Judd and $'s were the decision makers. (unless of course, he hates his brother!)

As with Judd, if a player chooses to chase the money above all else, I don't want him at the MFC.

Warnock clearly chose the dollar over being the no.1 ruck for the next 10 years and playing alongside his brother. Good on him.

Lets move on and concentrate on getting players who WANT to play for our great club.

And generating a culture that is to be respected from outside, and revered and aspired to within the club

And generating a culture that is to be respected from outside, and revered and aspired to within the club

Yes, because it's Carlton's culture that attracted Judd and Warnock

If a player is chasing the money above all else, then us and 14 other clubs can't compete with Carlton at the moment.

Lets see how long it takes the AFL to actually do something about it!

I'm sure the chance of playing finals with an up and coming list in the next couple of years was on Warnock's mind. I'm also pretty sure the Carlton offer would have contained aspects which the MFC offer could not have, legal or not, but nonetheless the Carlton "brand" is worth more in AFL terms.

And why would he not be a 10 year ruckman for them? If he's as good as we'd want him to be, I'm sure he could fulfill the role there

I'm sure the chance of playing finals with an up and coming list in the next couple of years was on Warnock's mind. I'm also pretty sure the Carlton offer would have contained aspects which the MFC offer could not have, legal or not, but nonetheless the Carlton "brand" is worth more in AFL terms.

And why would he not be a 10 year ruckman for them? If he's as good as we'd want him to be, I'm sure he could fulfill the role there

He'd be fighting for a position with Kreuzer for the rest of his career.

And Judd turned down Essendon and Collingwood (two clubs who have played more finals in recent times, and whos brand is as strong if not stronger than Carlton's) in favour of Carlton.

This has nothing to do with culture or the chance of maybe playing finals next year.

Glad you know him

He'd be fighting for a position with Kreuzer for the rest of his career.

And Judd turned down Essendon and Collingwood (two clubs who have played more finals in recent times, and whos brand is as strong if not stronger than Carlton's) in favour of Carlton.

This has nothing to do with culture or the chance of maybe playing finals next year.

And your point is??

I haven't seen a contract yet, so i'll wait.

He'd be fighting for a position with Kreuzer for the rest of his career.

Ridiculous. They'll be teammates for the rest of their careers. He'd be clearly their 1st choice as tap ruckman, with Kruezer playing up forward, and having decent stints around the ground. Perfect combination.

Yes, because it's Carlton's culture that attracted Judd and Warnock

If a player is chasing the money above all else, then us and 14 other clubs can't compete with Carlton at the moment.

Lets see how long it takes the AFL to actually do something about it!

it will take years, probably that suck Demetriou will have to go before anything is done about Carlton cheating, Pratt is probably paying the blokes at the AFL off

Havent you heard...Vlad is Visyion Impared !! At best only one works, which explains his lack of depth perception in any argument he puts forward !!

Before you disappear in stats did you consider game time on the ground?

The kid is 22yo. with potential. Jamar will be 26, Johnson will be 25. They have 3 to 4 years in the system and are not at AFL standard individually or as a pair.

Its a silly comparison that lacks vision.

Collingwood took the best available who was a 3rd string ruck from Brisbane who were happy to trade. By the way it was pick 14 for Wood. BTW Wood is only 22yo. Ruckman take time to mature.

It probably matters nought now but your analysis is silly and lacks vision. Clearly Warnock has done nothing to suggest his high price tag and the statistics bear that out. He's no Cox and he's no Sandilands. If he were, Mark Harvey would have played him more often and he would also have given him more game time.

You've based your argument on Warnock's potential as a ruckman and while he has shown some signs of a promising future as a ruckman and he definitely has the height for it, it's all there as potential for the future and he's as much an unknown quantity as Wood was 12 months ago and for that matter, Meesen as well.

True, ruckmen take time to mature and if that were the case then surely Warnock would have given Naitanui a flogging in the ruck when the faced each other this year in the WAFL match between Swan Districts and West Perth? No, this time it was Naita who had far less ground time but he still managed to beat him statistically and on the ground.

I'll let you in on a little secret. Warnock didn't dominate rucks at the WAFL level either even though most of the ruckmen there are spuds. That's the reason why Harvey wasn't picking him much in the first half of the season.

My tip is that R Warnock will end up being one of the more expensive players running around at the Northern Bullants and he'll have a bit of company in the rucks there if they keep Setanta and his dud brother Osama.

The bottom line is that it would have been irresponsible of Melbourne to try to match the pay cheque that Carlton was offering even if you accept all the other considerations that allegedly attracted Warnock to hitch his wagon with the Blues.

It probably matters nought now but your analysis is silly and lacks vision. Clearly Warnock has done nothing to suggest his high price tag and the statistics bear that out. He's no Cox and he's no Sandilands. If he were, Mark Harvey would have played him more often and he would also have given him more game time.

You may have missed this post. It might help you.

Below is a possibly biased synopsis from a Freo supporter. Fwiw, I agree with him and believe that we must do all that we can to secure his services. I'd give pick 19 to get the deal done.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FREO guy

vvvv

Most clubs had doubts over an anorexic looking 204cm player ever making it to the required physical level. Turns out he was eating like a horse and was at the end of a recent growth spurt.

The thing Fremantle liked about him was his excellent endurance. Was elite amongst potential draftee's and beat many players smaller than him. Beep test from memory was 13.1.

Came to the club and put on 10kg over 1 preseason. Started in the WAFL reserves and was clearly too classy and found himself in the senior side after a handful of games. Was way ahead of development. The club had signed him on a 3 year contact from the start given where he was starting.

By the end of his debut season he was a regular at WAFL level. Still looked skinny as a rake.

Preason 2, manages to put on another 10kg. Now into the high 80's. Still looked skinny but started to dominate in the WAFL. Justin Longmuir retired after 1 game in the 2007 season. Warnock got his chance mid way through the season with some stella form in the WAFL.

Subsequently Sandilands goes down with injury and Warnock is left to lead the ruck in his 2nd season at the club. (refer back to that picture again). Surprisingly he does exceptionally well. In games where Cox was meant to dominate, Warnock is clearing the ball and gathering possessions. He has his best game for season 2007 against Carlton. 16 possessions and 16 hitouts.

His most impressive stuff is when he chases down midfielders who try and go around him laying some big tackles. Very fast off the mark. Also he has more finesse than Sandilands in the tap work. Fremantle fans get overexcited and start claiming it'll be hard for Sandilands to get back the lead ruck.

Preseason 08 rolls around. He hurts his lower back. Gets games at the beginning of the year when he wasn't ready. Performs poorly and is dropped. He is now playing WAFL at West Perth. Mark Seaby, Kepler Bradley and Adam Campbell all playing their. So at best he's getting 50% time in the ruck, sharing the duties with Mark Seaby.

This when all the rumours of him leaving start. Eventually finds form and is brought back to the senior team. Does well in combination with Sandilands and eventually hurts his shoulder. His season ends early for surgery.

Here we are.

He's grown 2cm taller, he's now 206cm. Weighs in the mid 90's but is still shy of a mature body. Probably needs to shade a 100kg before he could bang bodies regularly with the top rucks. He's got the same armspan as Sandilands and a pretty good leap.

From the last 5 drafts how many ruckman would be classed better than Warnock:

2007 draft:

Kreuzer

2006 draft:

Leuenberger

2005 draft:

???

2004 draft:

Ivan Maric (only recently hit form)

2003 draft:

????

FFS, he is only 21. And at 21, he is only showing promise. How 21 year old rucks dominate the AFL? If I am basing my assessment on what how has shown in limited game time and on his potential, I think I have shown more vision that you have displayed on this thread. It figures you cant grasp some pretty basic flaws in the other posters comparison with 25 to 26 yos with 4 more years experience.

The fact is that you have put him into the same bucket as Meesen suggests you have really seen neither play or just dont know. I suggest the latter.

I am not sure why the gripe about the price tag. He was always going to get significant interest if he came onto the market and the price was always going to be high. Three Clubs were vying for his services. Maybe they know something you dont. Its pretty clear they do.

So as we enter 2009, I am sure you can sit back and enjoy the incompetencies of Jamar and PJ and thank god we have not sought to secure a capable ruckman.

Hannibal has nailed it.

Hannibal has nailed it.

No he hasn't. He's cited the opinion of a Docker fan who thinks Warnock was dominating in the WAFL. That person is wrong. Warnock in fact played second fiddle at West Perth to Mark Seaby FFS.

I didn't say he doesn't have potential, I said he hasn't put the runs on the board, just like Meesen.

If you had bothered to read what I said I said he has "shown some signs of a promising future" and I also said "ruckmen take time to mature" but that doesn't equate to him having a record to command 400k p.a. Three Clubs were vying for his services but only one offered the 400k. Maybe the other two know something you dont or maybe the other two don't have a benefactor that pays 7 foot dudes 200k to clean the toilets at their operations.

Nor did I suggest that Melbourne didn't seek to "secure a capable ruckman". Melbourne clearly did go after him but failed to secure his preference. The two are entirely different things.

That's my opinion and I'm entitled to express it without putting up with someone who wastes his time trying to shoot the messenger with inane comments like "you have really seen neither play or just dont know". My information on Warnock comes from reliable people who have seen him play at WAFL and AFL level as well as from what I've seen myself.

FFS, he is only 21. And at 21, he is only showing promise.

And potential is NOT worth 4 years, well over a million dollars and an early draft pick.

We're all moaning and bitching over the fact that Yze and White were given such long and expensive contracts, yet we're happy to offer longer and more expensive contract to someone who has proven very little and couldn't get a game with a bottom 4 side?

We've definitely been sucked in hard by the hype if we're stupid enough to think Warnock is worth that much.

You have to think of the residual cost here, in 3 years time if Warnock has proven to be nothing more than a middle of the road ruckman, and we're looking to re-sign Morton, Maric, Grimes, McLean etc..., we may just not have enough money to do so because we're tied to such a ridiculously massive contract.

Trade could go something like this:

1. Warnock (Freo) --> Carltank

2. pick 6 (Carltank) --> Filth

3. Didack (Filth) --> Adelaide

4. Griffen (Adelaide) --> Freo

And potential is NOT worth 4 years, well over a million dollars and an early draft pick.

We're all moaning and bitching over the fact that Yze and White were given such long and expensive contracts, yet we're happy to offer longer and more expensive contract to someone who has proven very little and couldn't get a game with a bottom 4 side?

We've definitely been sucked in hard by the hype if we're stupid enough to think Warnock is worth that much.

So if his former coach in Connolly is prepared to deal then I assume you think that he's either stupid, doesn't have the Club's best interests at heart, or is a horribly poor judge of talent.

For all intents and purposes....we missed out...Sh!t happens ...get over it move on!!

We have missed out before..am bloody well sure we'll miss out again before this game turns it up...

You can either all go sook in a corner and cry yourselves to sleep or we brush oursleves off and focus on the next "attainable" ( with any luck.. ) and so it goes on.

Would have been a handy pickup..not to be.

such is life !!