rpfc

You're right NN, if we get him, should be played off a wing, end to end, he'd dominate... I hate this, I want to win games but if we don't we get a shot at getting a 21yr old 206cm ruckman and NN. Conflicted, I guess you could say.

Our backmen look awful, but I would reserve judgement on them until we get their workload down. Because you can't exactly say anyone isn't worthy of a spot in a backline to attack a flag because they flounder with 60+ inside 50s, no team that is a chance to wina flag wouldn't have so many. Basically, we're frustrated and rushing to judgement on everyone. Done it myself with Garland, so let's just keep our heads a little.

The Eagles are tanking, but they play so many at Subi. It's a mindset with Melbourne clubs there...

Yes, If we won 4 games or less this year.

Anyone saying Richmond are going to tank should watch their last three games - they have been brilliant. Not a huge fan of Wallace but the Tigers are having a go and they will win more than 4 games. I was pretty sure it was 4 and a half games as a cut off. Because 16.5 is such a strange number - why not 17 points - serves the same purpose and and isn't a fraction. Anyway, we will have competition for the spoon from the Coasters and possibly Essendon.

I know you're talking about Bell but, honestly, those sentences vould apply to half our team (only half?). He's a back flanker Daniel Bell - courageous, selfless, athletic, quick, a decent kick, and good value for the position he plays. Some have said we should try him in the midfield, which I cannot see for the reasons you mentioned - indecisive, poor peripheral vision, makes bad decisions. However, for a back flanker he is a good player who is apart of a backline that at the moment is seeing more action than the Western Front. They are battling away back there, with the huge workload and their own confidence issues. Our midfield sometimes gets away with alot from us and these players should get the blame, not our backmen: Green, Bruce, McLean, Jones, McDonald, Moloney, Batram, White, and Jamar. They are the ones that allow an average of 62 inside 50s. 62!! The AFL median is around 48. (Agian with the stats, I know. But some stats see into the truth of things.) While it may not suprise you, it at the very least, should alarm you.

Nah, F... that we need to build something for the future. Coming 11th is just as inspiring to our fairwhether supporters as finishing last. Play the talent, which is young, and give us a reason to look forward to next year not next week. We will win a game this year, but I want us doing it while showing we have some young talent at the club and it is not hopeless. The narrative of our plight changes if we play all our older players - our 'best 22' as you say - and we still lose, or only win a few. It changes to 'Melbourne has no future...its younger players can't break into this awful team...the club is no good and the situation is only going to be worse when these important players retire' Play the kids, and as i'll continue to say, give a reason to be excited about Melbourne. People are excited about potential, especially potential to win a flag. We have to be looking at that goal with our player selections but also our trading and recruitment. I want to see the only 'older' players at the start of 2009 to be around the 'best 22' to be: McDonald, Green (if not traded), Robertson (contracted till end of 09), Bruce (if not traded), Wheatley, Whelan, and Carroll. Everyone else should be 25 or younger.

Agree on Sylvinator's point about their common averageness making dropping anyone difficult but you have to look at who is beating the door down to come back. Valenti is desparate to play, Buckley ran all day against Bendigo - has his moments of awfulness but who in the red and blue doesn't. Plus he's 20. Bate was ok and Yze was good - But Bate is 21 and a KPP. Newton, Meesen, Bode, Martin, and Maric would be close but have to string more games together at Sandy. Especially Newton. With that in mind: IN - Bate, Valenti, Buckley, Whelan OUT - Bell (looks low on confidence, but is a good player), Warnock (Rivers, Frawley, and Carroll can handle Freos fwds), Morton (looks burnt out, a couple of weeks off will help him), and Batram (Play him in the guts at Sandy) Thin Ice: Robertson, Davey, Miller, Moloney, Dunn, and Carroll. White and Jamar had their best games for the year, although that isn't saying alot. They have both been awful around the ground for the first 5 rounds. Macca is struggling and so is Wheatley. Pass (for effort): Jones, McLean, Bruce, Green, Rivers, Frawley, Sylvia, and Wonaeamirri.

At he end of 2004 the Hawks had won 4 games, sacked Peter Schwab and hired a no name coach that was to leave the Port Adelaide Power just as they were on their way to a Grand Final appearance. Questions were asked of the coach and they continued to be asked as Hawthorn went through the next 40 games and only won 10 games. The Hawks stated a mid-season review would settle the future of their coach in 2006 as they decided to extend Clarkson's contract. Bookies at the time questioned what right he still had being head coach of a footy club. They finished the season well (won their last 4) but those 9 games that they won in 2006 (5 in 2005) were against Carlton twice, Essendon twice, and a pathetic Geelong twice with the other three wins coming at 'defacto Glenferrie' Aurora Stadium, Tasmania. He was pilloried for having an awful gameplan, based on this nonsense of over-possession that was seen as the latest fad. He stuck to his gameplan and overhauled the list to get players to the club that could handball and run and carry the football. (http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/zero-to-heroes/2007/06/30/1182624227510.html - Lyall Johnson charting the Hawks course) We have a new coach with a new gamestyle. The birth pangs of this are not unique. 2004 Hawks 4 wins, 82 more kicks than handballs (Clarkson taking over in 2005) 2005 Hawks 5 wins, 53 more kicks 2006 Hawks 9 wins, 59 more kicks 2007 Hawks 13 wins, 44 more kicks 2008 Hawks 6 and 0, 27 more kicks There is more pain to come, and to lose your head now is only going to make this long journey even harder. Our list requires work and patience is needed. This is not blind faith, if there is such a thing. I trust the process we went through to get Bailey and I see the problems he faces. For the foreseeable future I will be content to watch for signs of that promising future, all Dean Bailey can do is to stick to the gameplan that he knows best and push for a flag.

A shitload less than they would lose if they sacked Bailey.

Yeah, Dunn was good on TJ. TJ was constantly complaining to the umpires, which is always a good sign.

A new coach has little control over form evaporations (Davey, Robbo, Neitz, White, Yze, Brock, Colin, Macca, and Wheatley) or poor skill errors (Jones, Batram, Miller, Jamar, Bell, Bruce, Green, and Moloney). Nor can he be blamed for the list that, at the moment, looks extremely defective. I will give him time, basically for the fact that we cannot afford to get rid of him.

He's done well in the backline, but would like him to move into the midfield. My expectations are buried in the sand when it comes to Colin but he has been impressive in the last couple of weeks.

Agree. It's all set up for CC to say something that starts with "What I meant by that was..." However, if they do it over 6 - 8 weeks that is fine but like YM, I want to see what product i'm buying next season.

There is no point in making 16 changes unless you can get picks for them, besides you have to make 3 deletions at least every season so you should spread it out over a couple of years.

Those who want Valenti in the side are not saying he is the panacea for our woes, and now you're trying to put an unreachable ceiling on his performances from now on. He's 21, he's the best player in the VFL and he deserves a go. The end. Goodbye.

You know, that's probably a good thing, if we were getting beaten and our senior players were performing the narrative would be worse.

If we get Street it will be a pretty shallow PSD...

McLean and Jones for pick 2 is nonsense. I can understand you're frustration with their inconsistent performances but if we did this deal we would be worse off in the short run, the long run and any run you want to mention. We do need to look at trading people but not promising 20 and 22 yr olds. If we did this we would have punters like you typing about these mistakes we made listening to your advice. I agree with some of the other things you said though. The fact is Robbo should have gone, Bruce should have gone, Green should have gone but there are fans that don't want to see them go (some still don't with trapper) even though they realise they won't be around for our next tilt at a flag. They've got value and we should exploit that, we have been far too protective of careers at the expense of the club winning a flag, but trading McLean and Jones isn't going to help us win that flag.

Great thread, share your frustrations with people who want a 20yr old and a 22yr old to dominate a midfield. They are ball winners that will drive us back up the ladder in a few years time. The percentage of McLean's touches that are contested is 38%, and Jones 36%. For comparison Maccas is 30%, Bruce 24%, Green 23%, Morton 27%, Bell 27%, Wheatley 17%, Carroll 28%, Rivers 36%, and Wonaeamirri 50%. Not a slight on any of those players, just an illustration that McLean and Jones are midfielders we haven't had for awhile - ones that don't need 'handball receives' to have an impact on a game. Have mentioned this stat before and will again, I see it as being pretty relevant to competitive footy.

For those who say we don't need a ruckman, NN might not even be one. What if he plays like Goodes - Utility and goes from end to end dominating games (until this year) Or Richo of the last few weeks - Wing, again end to end using his athleticism. Rich is, by all accounts, the safer choice. But NN looks like he is the epitome of the future of footy. Fast, agile, athletic, etc. And apparently he runs and carries the football...(so at least we will have 1 bloke who can execute the gameplan.

I have no idea about how good Natinui is compared to Rich. But we need a great ruckman more than we need a great midfielder IMO. Plus we can use him in the ruck and then around the ground get PJ/Meesen to wrestle.

What does JMac have to do to get the captaincy? Unbelievable, co-captains... The bloke has won the last 2 b+f's and is a model citizen and footy player. Sheesh.

I do... But I like my world. It rains white chocolate maltesers and Tibet is a thriving theocracy. And Melbourne's half decent...

Completely understand your frustration and I hope they move them on as well but... I think that deadline may be used for the 26 year olds and up that Green, Bruce, Carroll, Wheatley, Whelan, White, McDonald, Robertson make up. With that said, who do you realistically drop to Sandy or retire; Green (No), Bruce (No), Carroll (Hard to do - ok at FB this year), Wheatley (Hard to do - ok off HBF this year), Whelan (Yes to both), White (Yes to retire), McDonald (No), and Robertson (Hard to do - Contracted next year). So Whelan and White possibly to retire (and one of them is currently susp. for a week) - That is hardly the clean out that we all expect. Personally, I believe this deadline will come and go with the MFC with no wins and no change. But if they are tough and ruthless, like they should be, these players should go: Carroll, Wheatley, Whelan, White, Jamar, and Miller. Robertson (because he'll be here in '09, Bruce and Green (both for trade week) should remain.