Vogon Poetry

Jack is now a mature footballer, not some kid with significant upside. He's played most of last year and all of this year (from memory). I fail to see what he is going to "learn" that is going to make him into a MFC AFL footballer. Half back? How many have we got? Lots. I hope you're right Bin but I can't see a path for Jack. He was very slow preseason when I saw him and was the only one doing specific training to increase his speed off the mark and agility. He couldn't get a kick in the preseason practice match that I saw and he looks slow at VFL level to me.

I thought some time ago that TMac could play the Blicavs role and in a way that is what's happened over the last few weeks. I wonder how that fits.

I've seen Jack twice this year, once live and once on TV and I don't recall him playing the inside mid role in either of those games although he has started in the centre square on occasions. But others have seen more and I might be wrong. And Trenners isn't like for like. Jones is much faster than Trenners and much more agile. I hope he gets a go if he's "best available" and I hope he does well. But if it's a "reward" selection that would be disappointing given where we sit and the fact that players like Stretch, JKH and Wagner all seem better suited to Subi.

Yes, but we really don't know, we're just guessing working on limited material. We've just come to different conclusions.

Martin you've got your knickers in a knot for no reason. In my previous posts on the subject I said I think Lewis will struggle to maintain his spot in the team as early as next year. It's a footy forum for heavens sakes. It's where people discuss footy and their views. I'm not a "self appointed football pundit" but I like discussing issues. IMO it's pretty boring to make observations about the bleeding obvious (gosh we played well yesterday - that really adds to the forum doesn't it) and I'm much more interested in anticipating what might happens and how we plan for it.

Apologies, you said " McDonald (IMO) can point and direct all he likes - he is not the smartest footballer going around." There is only one "smartest" footballer and I don't think you intended to give the impression that Tom was the second smartest. It was a pointed comment and I think you're hiding behind semantics. It implied that regardless of how much Tom directs you don't rate it because you don't rate his footy smarts and his direction is of little or no value. What does that imply?

Yes he had 31 possessions and he contributed in other ways. I reckon every other player contributed in others ways as well. Why should Lewis be treated any differently. I'm not contending that he doesn't and hasn't added value and I'm not arguing against the trade. I'm contending he is not nearly as valuable as many here say and that he is fast coming to the end of his playing career, something others disagree with.

I'd prefer to do it with someone who was capable of doing it now regardless of how often they'd done it before.

I know Lewis had more clangers than Tom yesterday and I'm loathe to argue a players "smarts" based on the sort of things you ask because they are subjective. I don't know if I'm misquoting you but I think you really said Tom McDonald is a dumb footballer. I think that's a very harsh judgement. And coaching on field is as much about understanding structures and being aware of what's happening around you not decision making under pressure. Jaded makes the point that Lewis chasing and tackling is disappointing. I agree and I think it's because he's slow and that this is what ultimately will count against him and no amount of intangibles will compensate. Anyway we can agree to disagree. What will surprise many is the longer Lewis is best 22 the happier I will be.

You can clearly gain more from outside the boundary and the club than I can. I don't know how smart a footballer TMac is. I know he's a very good defender, I know he's adapted to the ruck role very well in the last few weeks, He clearly has the understanding of the game to play his primary role very well and adjust quickly to new ones. I would have thought that's indicative of a player who is smart but that's just me. I know he is prone to execution errors but in my view it was the execution and not the decision that in most cases was wrong. I expect that if the FD was worried about his lack of footy smarts they'd instruct him to play safe football but that doesn't seem to be the case. But you seem to have made a "not smart" judgement of Tom so either you see more than me (quite possible) or you know something more about him. I could mount the same argument about all the others but you get my drift. I always wonder when peoples main positives about a player are intangibles that I for one are not well placed to judge.

Lewis wasn't awesome, he played his part like a lot of others. Lewis was part of a team that was unfazed. I can't talk for TGR, nor do I want to, but the response to yesterdays game is a fine example of the exaggerated adulation Lewis receives for a solid performance. At the time of writing this about 40 people have cast votes for players in yesterdays game and only about 8 have included Lewis in their best 6. The first 3 vote givers covered 10 players and Lewis was not amongst them. But reading the posts above I get the impression that without Lewis we might well have lost. Reality is Lewis was solid. I don't remember any great bits of play but I remember his first handball under little pressure missing the target by some distance and the panicked punch at the ball that gave Daniels the Dogs first goal. I also looked for the whiplash he may have given himself directing the hapless hordes many here seem to think we have on the ground . I saw Nev Jetta and Bernie Vince directing traffic all the time. Jones, McDonald and Viney likewise and Watts up forward. The reality is if we granted everyone the status Lewis is granted for pointing and directing others we'd we overflowing with on field coaches and yet many here seem to think Lewis is critical in this regard. The reality is he's a player playing his role. Lets keep things in perspective. Lewis was good yesterday. Not great but certainly earned his wage as did just about every other player on the ground for us. I'm please to have him in the team but there are clear signs he's nearing his used by date and when it comes it can come quickly. My view is it will come faster than many here think.

Yes, I saw the commas around "hide" so that's why I said " It suggests you recognize his declining abilities and "football" value to the team". You appear to have ducked my question " Are you suggesting that we retain him in the team for his leadership capabilities (which I dispute) even if he isn't up to it and there are better alternatives? " I know you've given us an example of what you've done as a coach but you've suggested you did play your old fumbly leader because you had a very young group. I contend we don't have a very young group and I'd also contend that a team playing well below AFL standard (an assumption that may be wrong) can't be compared to a group of full time footballers with such an experienced group of assistant and development coaches training them as well as input from Leading Teams (who I think we still use). Anyway I'd be interested in your answer to my question if you can be bothered. But on another note it's interesting how people interpret events to suit their views/hopes/stance. Lewis supporters and now defending his lack of chasing saying it's smart. When Watts was a whipping boy and did the same he was treated quite differently. Steve's initial reaction was that Oscar's kick to Harmes was lucky (he's not a supporter of Oscar in case you'd missed it) but when he looked closely at the replay he agreed Oscar's kick was good. Lewis came to us as a bit of a messiah and we all desperately want him to have that defining difference to our team. I did too, I just never liked him and regardless of the fact he now wears a MFC jumper I can't warm to him. I see what he does very critically whereas others see him through rose coloured glasses because they don't want their hopes dashed. Lewis has been very good on occasions. He was particularly good against Saints but has been workman like the rest of the games with some very poor performances during games. He was terrible against Suns in the first half. He's slow and he's old. I'd dispute Pro's assertion that he can play multiple positions. I think his midfield days are just about gone, he's a liability one on one in defence because he can't go with the smaller forwards. He can't play small forward because he can't apply defensive pressure. His position is running up and down the wing picking up a few kicks and playing loose man in defence. He's not done yet but he's not far off. I hope he get through next year but with the natural improvement of players like Wagner, Smith, Stretch, Brayshaw and the return of Gawn and Hogan (who just add general pressure to selection) he's in trouble. Anyway that's my view, we'll see what happens.

I've watched the replay again and again. The best bit is the roar before the ball even goes through. It started with those behind him (of which luckly I was one) who could see it was gun barrel straight (in memory of my favourite all time commentator) from the moment he kicked it and the rest of the crowd just joined in as one. That joyous roar will live with me for ages. Those who bother to read my posts know I'm a Jack fan and have stood up for him here for a long time. I was just proud of the boy. And while I've no problem with Jack giving them the bird I think blowing them a kiss would have been better, it would have pizzed them off even more. Brilliant meme Ted, but having said that I really like Jeremy Howe. Oh and Dazzle, a bit of pot calling kettle black in your post lad. Just saying.

I'd have a look at the team first, but that's just me.

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/video/2017-06-12/rd-12-the-sealer-watts-icecold-sinker Have a look Steve, he clearly looks up, sees Harmes and kicks very well to him - hard enough to ensure the Coillingwood player can't intercept and into space where Harmes can run on to it. Harmes kick to Watts is also very good. But you're nothing if not consistent.

Well we'll see what happens, it would be very good for us if you're proven correct. Unlike you I haven't heard Lewis' game mentioned much by coaches and captains much and I certainly haven't seen him turn a game. I recall Goody mentioning him in the second half of the Suns game but he played loose across half back which was a very easy gig. But I'm well aware that we see what we want to see and I'm aware I don't like him so that probably taints my view. But I am interested in your view of "hiding" him. It suggests you recognize his declining abilities and "football" value to the team. Are you suggesting that we retain him in the team for his leadership capabilities (which I dispute) even if he isn't up to it and there are better alternatives? FWIW I see a lot of Adem Yze in Lewis when Ooze was in decline.

And Oscar McDonald's clever kick to Harmes....

I'm not a rap for Lewis although I recognize his value to the team. I acknowledged that when I said " Now Lewis still has some value to the team and I'm not dropping him yet or saying useless." That recognition leads me to believe that he would certainly have made us a 3 point better team against Freo and possibly a 14 point better team against Richmond. The fact that he wasn't there because he decided to hit someone behind play fracturing their face resulting in a 3 week suspension is galling and a appalling failure of leadership for which many here are applauding him for. My comments were based around the adulation he gets and the comments like Abe (not the only one) saying " Lewis is our best leader, hands down." I articulated why I dispute that view. Viney and Jones have been very good leaders and have demonstrated that on the field. Lewis hasn't. And for the record I never said he did "nothing" so your "foot in both camps or in your mouth" is clearly misplaced. It's commonly asserted that Lewis is the leader and coach we need on the ground. That is, by and large, an intangible and reminds me of people who quote stats to support an argument and then when the stats don't support them discredit them as being misleading. There are a number on here that do that. But those claiming "leader and coach" values are really just guessing because unless you're in the club you just don't know. From what I've seen he's not someone I'd follow into battle in the way I would Jones and Viney and I can say that because I can see what the three of them bring on field, not some off field intangible psychobabble guessing of many here. The assertion is also an insult to our other leaders. Jones, Vince, Jetta, Vince, Tom McDonald and Watts have all played in excess of 100 and some many more. They are able to understand game plans and direct players. We have had exceptional player development FD personnel like McCartney, Roos, Goodwin and others mentoring these guys for some time. They have been successful in doing that and that would carry over to the "on field coach" attribute. Lewis of course could do it as well and be very good but our development is seriously wrong if he is so valuable in this role primary to his playing performance. First and foremost Lewis needs to get games because he's good enough to earn them. There should be no gifts. If he's not in the best 22 he doesn't play, his leadership should just be valuable garnish. My view is Lewis is lauded on this site beyond his contribution and he will fast become a player struggling for a place in the team, perhaps as early as next year. Oh, and for the record I'm glad we got him, he was cheap and he adds value but not to the extent asserted here.

I was lucky enough to be sitting right behind it. As Watts ran in he slowed right down, balanced himself before he kicked and it was like an arrow. There was not the slightest bend on it, straight over the goal umpires head. I knew he'd done it the moment it left the boot, it was pure. Coaches often talk about courage and the courage to run when you're spent. Watts was remarkable in this respect yesterday. One wonders if the training camp they went to before Christmas was the genesis of that ability - to just run when you can't. Great moment for Jack, great moment for every Melbourne supporter and I suspect a great moment for all football supporters other than the Pies.

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2017-06-12/hogan-at-least-a-fortnight-away He's clearly not anywhere near and understandably so. It's also clear that GNF's definition of "from the top" sets a very low bar which gives us an insight into GNF station in life. I like rumour but I don't like fabrications. Give me Nudge any day.

I for one can't come at the love and the adulation Lewis gets on here but each to their own. I see Lewis as an arrogant player coming from a highly successful club with 4 premierships under his belt who has been told what an asset he is and he believes he's it and a bit with nothing to prove. I cringed when I saw this in the paper last week spoken by Lewis: " "For me, it feels like another game because I haven't been a part of it, a part of the build-up of the rivalry. But certainly speaking to a lot of the players it feels like more than a home-and-away game." Good on you Jordie, that's the spirit. And I get bemused by comments like Abe above who make statements like "Lewis is our best leader, hands down." Can you verify this? Are you a part of the club and therefore see what he does day to day? Do you know what he says to players? A better leader than Jones? On what basis? Better than Viney? On what basis. Certainly not on performance on the field. It was Jones who turned the game against Gold Coast and was the leader yesterday and it has been Viney in other games this season. Show me a game where Lewis has turned it? And he hasn't shown leadership nor set an example by potting someone behind play and missing 3 games which we lost and could easily have won 2 if he'd been available. That's leadership? Lewis, as TGR has said, is slow. He goes to ground regularly, he fumbles the ball and his elite kicking is anything but. Cool head under pressure - just look at that terrible turnover in the last where he missed a simple 20 meter kick when under no pressure. As Pro has previously said he turns it over with the best of them. For a lot of the day yesterday he played the easiest position on the ground as the loose across half back - didn't impact the game and didn't get a kick. Now Lewis still has some value to the team and I'm not dropping him yet or saying useless. But the adulation he gets on this site bemuses me. Anyone would think he's Joel Selwood reading this. I think by the beginning of next season he may be obsolete because I think in a playing sense the game is fast passing him by. I don't know why so many get upset about someone calling Lewis out. He's a limited footballer now with a used by date fast approaching. Clarkson realized it and so did Lewis which is why he left his lifelong club for a three year contract and some additional superannuation.

I just got back for the game. Can't wait to read the game day thread.

Stretch and Wagner very good and very AFL interchangeable. Weid much better today. Maynard looks a real prospect.

I've seen Hulett often. He's a good mark and a very good kick particularly for goal. I think Biff's assessment of skills is wrong but his assessment is probably right. I'm doubtful he'll make it but don't think he's delist material yet.

Second year player and frankly from what I've seen at Casey has shown more than Weideman. Silly to delist a second year tall KP forward after 2 years. Of course this is subject to attitude and other things which only the FD really know. Prima facie he's a keeper for at least a year.