Vogon Poetry

I did.

Steve, try not to confuse support for Oscar and others as criticism of Lever or an unwillingness to trade for him. Lever is better than Oscar. We know that. But that doesn't support your view that Oscar is no good.

Steve you're become a bore. Why should our key defenders take note when for the last 5 games key forwards haven't scored much against us. Why not Jetta, Hibberd, Hunt, Vince and others that rotate through the backline? Why not the midfield for not rolling back quicker and putting pressure on? You're one of the individuals here who can only see things in black and white. You're like the bloke in N12 who hurls abuse at the players all game except you do it here to our key backs. You have a view and that's fine but it's not really based on fact and you've nailed yourself to the mast so you look at every opportunity to further your view. Sadly your view is now worthless because it lacks any impartiality. And remember this? It was before the Adelaide game, you know, the team with the best attack in the competition. They managed 9 goals against us at the Adelaide Oval. Never saw your summary but assume the answer was nine. Get a grip man, you're not doing yourself any favours with your constant attacks. We all know the arguments, we'll all make our own judgements. Shouting your view from the roof tops won't convince us and doesn't make your view more valid. It just reeks of desperation.

Really? I couldn't be bothered going back further but I've looked at the last 5 games. In those five games (PA, NM, GWS, StK, Brisbane) Brown has kicked 4, Membery and Westoff 2 and no other tall has kicked more than one. For all your posturing and desperation to keep the "Oscar is a dud" myth going the proof certainly doesn't seem to be in the pudding. I'd love Lever, I'd love any elite talent and if elite talent chooses you then take it. But the facts seem to be that our defence is in pretty good shape and opposition talls don't regularly get hold of us.

What are the ground conditions like KC?

I know what your saying but I'm not sure it would be a great outcome if he can't get a game. It would mean we have a player that we don't need taking a spot on the lists, being paid and there for two years . That would be a poor outcome for the club. Just to clarify. I don't mind that we've got him, I supported his recruitment, I don't think he's been a failure and I think he's been good at times. I just think he's not as good as many here think, he provides experience but not leadership and he's got a short shelf life. Let's revisit in 10 months time.

Ben E I understand mine is not a popular view, it wasn't popular when I negatively critiqued Lumumba either. I got that one right, along with Neeld, Schwab and McLardy well ahead of time. I've got them wrong too like all of us. I think the comments you've quoted were made about Lewis by Mahoney when we recruited him, before he'd done one training session. Of course they are positive and I had exactly the same view. I wonder what Mahoney thinks now and whether he shares any of the concerns I have. He'll never tell you, as he shouldn't. And for a bloke that was "next in line to be captain of the Hawks" Clarkson, arguably the best coach this century, didn't want him and let him go for a peppercorn. What does that say ? Remember, Lewis was contracted and Hawks could simply have said "No". They didn't. Perhaps they knew something.

I don't dismiss his leadership, I just don't think it's as profound as many make out. Leadership is not hitting a bloke behind play and missing 3 very valuable weeks. That's just dumb. I think Lewis provides experience more than leadership as he provides a cool head tight situations but that is a far cry from leadership although easily confused. I'd follow Jones and Viney into battle but I'd be worried Lewis would pick and choose when he went.

I'm not wrestling with inner demons at all. My response has been mainly to counterbalance the blind adoration that Lewis was receiving in his first clutch of games. I didn't agree with that adoration and expressed a contrary view. Your paraphrasing is correct bar the conclusion. I've never said we shouldn't have recruited him. Further I've never said he wasn't a decent pick up by the club. In private discussions with Old55 and a few others I expressed my disappointment with Lewis from the preseason on mainly because he wasn't meeting my expectations. I got no support. I wanted a hard nosed contested ball inside mid with elite disposal skills and clean hands. I also expected courage. That's what he was at Hawthorn. But I felt in the preseason games and early on he was going through the motions. He's an elite player - or was - but the attributes he showed at Hawthorn he didn't show for us. He was shown up by players like Viney, Hunt, Hibberd, Jones and others for hardness at the ball, he had many possessions on the outside because we used him for his ball use and I can't remember him turning a game when others did. I reckon he was largely going through the motions for much of the season. He was lauded on here for his on field coaching and leadership which happen to be characteristics that can't be judged properly from the outside. And his suspension and his unapologetic manner immediately afterwards was the opposite of leadership. And to complete your questions I'd find it hard to consider his recruitment a success if he only played one of three paid years. He's been good for us this year and I've acknowledged that but he's not been great. I'd consider one in three paid years a poor return. But of course you are of the view as are many others that his mere presence has had a huge benefit on our playing group that will benefit us in years to come. I won't give him that credit because firstly it's supposition and secondly the behaviours I've seen don't support it. For me his form and hardness in the last few games when we've got to the pointy end of the season just support my view that he was coasting early. I don't want that example given to our players. You many not have noticed but I don't usually join in with "general discussion" unless my view differs because I'm not interested in stating what has been said before and is the common view. But on Lewis I differed so I expressed a view.

I don't know if you include me in the "naysaying brethren" but what always amazes me about DL is the need to see issues as black and white. STMJ says OMac is no good and refuses to recognize his very good form this year. WYL says Salem should be traded for his lack of discipline on Saturday and hasn't seen the incident that led to that comment. Go figure. I've recognized that Lewis has been best 22 from day one. I've questioned his "on field coaching" role because unless your on the ground you don't know what was said by whom. I saw Jones indicate for Lewis to go down back when Gawn went off so let's not pretend the rest of the team is incapable of making such a move. But lets not ignore his shortcomings when recognizing his contribution. He can't play a defensive role down back because he's too slow, he can only play as a spare. He has fumbled a lot and he does go to ground. He doesn't have the speed to find time to handball well when under pressure and does turn it over. There was a clear instance of this on Sunday. He hasn't put his body on the line in past games as he did on Sunday and as Old55 says, he might be pacing himself. If so that's a significant limitation and admission of his declining abilities. And I don't rate his leadership as others do when he pots someone behind play and gets a three week suspension, you don't see Viney or Jones doing that. That suspension cost us one and arguably two games. We could be competing for a top 4 spot if he (and Vince) hadn't shown a complete lack of leadership. I think he'll struggle to play next year because the game is not going to get any slower. There will be improvement from players like Stretch, Smith and Maynard who have not played regularly this year and Salem, Hogan, AVB and Watts are still to return. Then of course you have the trading and draft period where we will try to improve our list as well. The reality is Lewis will get worse while others will get better and at some point he isn't best 22. I think that is likely to be early next year, others don't. Why posters seem to think it's a competition to get it right I don't know. As TGR says, time will tell. And who gives a flying F if they're wrong anyway, there wouldn't be a person on this forum who hasn't "got it wrong". It's a discussion point for heavens sake.

He was brave in the last quarter and was good all game. But the commentary on him during the year has also been right, he hasn't done it much at all and the fact you've needed to highlight this actually proves the point. And whilst I agree he's been close to our best player over the last month the fact people are talking about him firing up at "the pointy end of the year" is a pretty serious criticism. You don't need to say that about the other players in the team and the reality is you need maximum output from all players all year. In effect what you're saying is he's been cruising until now and that isn't good. But no argument about his value yesterday, he was very good.

As many know I've been a critic of Jordan Lewis this year but not yesterday. The way he played yesterday was the way I hoped he'd play the season. He had a go, he cracked in for the hard ball and he won important contests. If he keeps that level up he'll be very valuable. We'll never know but is it just that he's keen to play finals, did he get a rocket or is it just form fluctuation? Well done Lewie, I thought yesterday you led by performance rather than reputation.

It was a cheap shot Jumbo. Move on.

My favourite Robbie story relates to his first game. He had to pay to get into the ground because the bloke on the gate didn't believe he was a player. Dazzle you once said you didn't rate Robbie that highly but I hope these highlights give you a flavour of his skill. Captained the Big V, says much from a team that was very ordinary at the time.

Have you seen the Salem incident? Crisps wasn't facing Lewis as I recall.

What? Thanks fracturing a blokes face behind play?

In my view if Vince and Lewis hadn't got suspended for irresponsible behind the play infringements leading to suspension we'd be sitting on 48 points and comfortably in the 8 with wins over Freo (Lewis) and NM (Vince). That it was from senior players makes it even more galling, that Lewis is touted as an on field leader and coach setting examples for younger players is inexplicable. If we miss the 8 it will sit directly on the head of these two.

Sorry to hear of Barry's situation KC, wish him all the best from me. As ever, appreciate your efforts as I did your Dad's.

I gave up trying to pick the changes week to week but I'll make two points. The first is if we are going to do any good in the finals we must have our best players playing and playing well. So whilst someone like Watts has been disappointing he must stay in the team and find form. Secondly I know JKH is not flavour of the month around here and I can see why but I thought he was far from our worst against NM and he just keeps racking them up at VFL level. I don't take much notice of low 30's at VFL level but he's a regular 40+ player. He can obviously win the ball and he has good skills. His treatment will be interesting to see.

That's fantastic news, it gives him a season that he would otherwise have missed. Given he's a player who hasn't come through the normal pathway he needs as much football as he can get. Missing a season with an ACL would have been dreadful. Great news in my book.

How many targets has Hibberd hit lately?

Hey KC, see if you can find Barry From Beech Road down there. Did the same sort of thing for us when MFC were with Sandy as you do now. If you see him buy him a beer, he loves one!?

Reckon you might have had some inside info Drunkn!

Better drop Hibberd then, 13 tackles for the season.

There is nothing in my post saying he should be brought back before he's ready. I was saying we should keep the season very much alive for him and give him incentive and hope, not shunt him off until next season as many suggested.