fr_ap

Generally agree. Also thinking back to the language around trade period about the club asking Clarry to buy (back?) into standards. Yes he now appears to have done that - but I wouldn't be against it if they feel he needs to show it for longer to earn the privilege of playing. I don't love the overall message either to him or his teammates that he returned to training all of 3/4 weeks ago and is now an automatic selection despite his prior (alleged) indiscretions, whatever they were or are - all we know is he wasn't adhering to standards. Best thing for him, and us, may be to hold him back. Take the time, right the ship and demonstrate its on a very stable footing before re-entering the fray.

ANB is a champion player & human. Steadily improved himself, worked on his deficiencies, and did his time in the VFL no complaints until he absolutely smashed the door down & couldn't be left out of the side. Not the perfect player but gives the most consistent effort of anyone in our team, without being an emotionally charged yo-yo like some others. Level-headed, self-aware, leadership in spades & consistent effort/attitude - you really cant ask for more. One of those guys who probably won't be fully recognised until he hangs them up.

That was a very promising display against a team I rate highly. Truthfully they didn't look like scoring and only did when they munged it to their two key forwards. After fretting about the midfield depth all summer i liked the different looks in there with Salem and Koz. Tide turned every time Gawn is off the ground - quite amazing how much he controls our fortunes.

Jane, I think I speak for everyone when I say we feel your anger, rage and devastation. It makes my blood boil too everytime I think about it. Know this though - the outpouring of emotion, admiration and community wide respect for Angus today has been outstanding. He's an amazing guy who has the right values, and today leaves a legacy and a mark on the game that is being lauded far and wide. His life will be full for all his days because of it. He will have every avenue of life (other than football) open to him because people support good people. If and when Maynard retires, he will not enjoy a morsel of what Gus has experienced today. Maynard will be remembered fondly by a small number of slack jawed yokels, but otherwise does not and will never have the respect of his peers or the general public. It is easy to see that opposition players already don't respect him, and haven't for years. His post-footy opportunities will be limited by this. The richness and fullness of his life over the long term will be limited by this. We talk about the karma bus - this is what it truly looks like. It's not him copping an injury, or a suspension, or losing an important game - it's the long, slow, day-by-day realisation that he could have been better, and wasn't. Regret and emptiness will be his prize at the end. As for his premiership medal - flags aren't about that. They're about fulfilment, mateship and a sense of accomplishment - and his will always have an asterisk against it. Not in my view, but I can say with some certainty in his own mind. Anyone who has ever felt white line fever will watch that incident and can tell he bumped with intent. Ultimately he won some footy stuff, but left a body behind and lied on the (kangaroo) stand to get it. That's not fulfilment.

I can see how it would come across as gloating, but it's not. I'm simply making the point again, as every prior time was shot down or disregarded. Not sure why I feel the need to bang my head against the wall, but I'm passionate about the club and our fortunes. And therein lies the disagreement. At risk of starting a debate I really don't want to have (as it's been done to death over the last 2 years), in the case of loading the 'reason' you use to explain our performances has not been proven. Until it is factual, I consider it an excuse. I'm not alone in this view. As for not screaming sincerity - interpret my comments however you like. Respecting your contribution means I respect the effort, time, and devotion you have to exploring the topics, which is clear and cannot be doubted. That doesn't mean I will agree with all your findings. The only 14 year old right now is the one incapable of understanding the distinction between respecting someone, and agreeing with everything they say. I apologise for drawing you into this as it was unnecessary. The original quip about your post length being a leading indicator of the Dees was in jest. Clearly no one would actually think the length of your posts has anything to do with our performance. It was a joke and one I thought you would have the self awareness to laugh at. I didn't need to follow this up with the further critique once WCW had inflamed things. I have no beef with you whatsoever, I just disagree with some of your opinions/analysis. You started this debate. My comments about our prospects/round zero had nothing to do with you. Says a lot that you'd opt out as soon as you're taken to task.

And you call me rude. Here's an idea...mind your own business. I am just as devoted a fan as you are, despite our different perspectives. I'm looking forward to the trip & game regardless of the result. I wouldn't ever tell you not to do something you're looking forward to. Acknowledging the challenges in front of us is not sooking. Discussing those challenges in a thread specifically about them is relevant. Mentioning that some of us saw the same challenges a few months ago is also relevant. Sorry if it's a touchy subject. If you don't like what other people have to say, stay off the internet. I respect what you bring to the forum, all you do for the the club and your positivity. The club needs all of that. It also needs others who will put it under pressure when required. Some threads, like training updates that you contribute to, are fun and optimistic. Other threads like this are to discuss what isn't, or might not be going quite as well. Likewise, I genuinely respect Binman's contributions and devotion. But I don't always agree with it, and think particularly when we lose there are some pretty amazing mental gymnastics on show trying to justify, excuse or explain away what are very simply, poor performances or better opposition teams. I'm pretty sure I saw the "loading" excuse trotted out in 2nd quarter on Sunday. In a practise match. In February. That same excuse will probably be used in rounds 1, 3, 5, 7, 10, 13, 15, 17, 19 and 21. I don't agree with it. It's tiresome. Strong clubs don't look for excuses and don't make apologies - they own it, like Trac did in the recent podcast. We did this under Roos and from all accounts, did this in early 2021 when the players took ownership. Our club needs more of that, not more excuses or long-winded explanations that blame the faceless fitness gods or the incredible improbability of losing a final with double the number of inside 50s.

There were several of us calling out the warning signs some time ago. The media are now jumping on board, and it's hard not to. There is little about our present situation that bodes well, leaving the usual apologists quick to point out our 3 consecutive top 4 finishes. They were nice, but are ultimately irrelevant to this year, especially when the bottom has fallen out of the list depth-wise and we had the worst cultural offseason we've had since pre-Roos. There are certainly several things to be concerned about, whether you like Lloyd or agree with him or not. I respect Binman's analysis, but the length of his posts has direct predictive correlation to our fortunes. The worse things look, the longer his posts get. There were some particularly lengthy ones in Sunday's post match thread, and I have a feeling we're going to be reading some even longer ones before this year is up. I have tickets and am flying up, but I think round zero in Sydney could actually be pretty nasty. Could very well set the tone for the year.

Let's hope so!

Wouldn't be holding my breath for a better showing against Carlton, who from all reports have had just about the best pre season in the history of the sport. Could actually be a bit ugly Looking forward to heading down to the old Optus Oval and missing a quarter waiting for my $26 souvlaki

Agree - thought Howes was awful. Not a defender and conceded something like 8 (?) goals to his direct opponents. Thought we were very poor overall. Have some concerns we are trying to evolve the gamestyle to match the Collingwood trend but there is a key difference - we don't have their level of instinctive skill or the swell of the crowd to infer pressure on the opposition. Mid and small defenders are an issue for me. Bowey is not really progressing and is a liability in most contests. Howes - see above. McVee looked very 2nd rate today and played lazy footy offensively and defensively. Not sure if anyone sat behind the goals right of the camera...but two [censored] almost came to blows several times and were teeing off with expletives and insults despite a litany of kids running around. All over....someone blocking their view. One demon one tiger - both absolute deadbeat muppets. Made me wonder why I missed footy when I see that demographic and basically escorted my two little kids away from the area. At a practise match family day...please.

Thanks, needed that reminder

I thought Windsor was quite tall. Was Judd really 5cm taller? Seems a lot and I don't recall him being overly tall

Didn't mean to start anything on Schache...my comment actually wasn't in reference to anything that happened last year. What happened happened and couldn't have happened any other way. Rather, I was only hypothesizing on how we can use him this year. We wouldn't like it if the playing group were still fixated on last year. So let's all move forward shall we?

Dee fault

Honestly I can see a version of events where Schache plays a lot this year. I have always been critical of his contest and mongrel and can't see that changing - and he could maybe be a liability in a final for that reason. But he has the height, skills and goal kicking ability our forward line needs. He's not a small body. He can chop out max reasonably well and is a good field kick whilst he plays ruck. If Petty spends the year injured and in/out of the side, I can see JVR being the bash crash forward and Schache being the more skilful one. They play together pretty well at Casey. Could happen imo....

A large part of wingplay is understanding defensive positioning and being able to hold your own in defensive contests. If the attacking side comes more naturally to him, it could be that Howes training with the backline is for the benefit of his wingplay rather than as an out-and-out half back. If he could add that string to his bow with his height, it would make him a valuable player. Imo whilst Langdon/Hunter are solid in the contest and positionally sound, imo we've lacked a defensive winger with height since Brayshaw moved to other roles.

Well done. Got all the validation by telling people ignorance is bliss. It's not pessimistic, it's realistic. Yes, Oliver missed half the year last year and we managed ok in the middle. This was for a variety of reasons - Viney stepping up, Melksham allowing Trac more time in the middle to name a few. We could very well find solutions again. But unless you really don't rate Oliver or his contribution to the team, his absence is overall a net negative. That's realistic, and any opposition supporter would tell you they'd rather face us without him. You can try to wash away the problem with hopes and dreams of youth filling the gap, but he's a generational player. His output week on week is irreplaceable, individually or in the aggregate. His continued absence makes us a weaker side than last year - and we finished what, 5th? Tmac and Brown were missing for large chunks of last year. Guess what - we didn't win the flag, and a big reason was our inability to find competitive, consistent, stable key forwards to kick goals. These two were a massive part of 21 and we miss them as individuals and a combo, and we haven't addressed the deficiency. Oppo teams know we aren't potent outside of Fritsch. So yes, them being over the hill and showing no signs (yet) of returning to their old selves is a net negative, considering they were both very good players in their prime that we have really struggled to replace. Even one of them getting back would help us immensely. Every player is a year older. Very astute. But an extra year is not the same for all, and you know it. Gawn and May are both probably 2/3 years off retirement, and they will decline at some point. Gawn last year had his worst year statistically for some time. With every year that passes the likelihood of their form declining increases. Net negative vs last year. Realistic. Frampton, Cox and Cameron aren't world beaters, but are established senior depth who have played a lot of footy and are reliable (yes, even Cox). Them being that depth was critical to the Pies flag, whether you realise it or not. Laurie, Woewodin, Turner or Howes can't be considered senior or reliable (yet), even if they do have more upside. They'll improve for sure, they might be solid, they might be great. But right now, they're not. That's realistic. This is the exact point on Smith. No world beater, but reliable senior depth of which we have precious little. He, like Frampton, could play in a flag side and do a job. You know it. We might like to think Turner could do the job, but we don't know yet. Realistic. I am optimistic (yes, really) about our chances to improve. I'm excited by Bowey, JVR, Riv, McVee growing, Trac getting his goal kicking together and putting us on his back, a youngster or 3 injecting themselves into the side. I'm excited for what McAdam can bring together with Pickett, and intrigued by the prospect of Billings rediscovering his once blistering form. I have a lot of faith in our senior players and leaders like ANB, Lever, Trac and Viney. I'm excited to see if Mcqualter has any impact on our style of play. But do I realistically think all these points above will be enough to both offset the inevitable negatives/declines (some of which I covered above, others will be unforeseen), our inarguably thinner senior depth, the improvement of other teams AND bridge the gap from 5th to 1st? On balance, no. Do I think if things go more wrong than right, like a Petracca long term injury for example, that we could fall from 5th to 8th? To 10th? Yeah, probably. Yes, most teams can't handle the loss of their superstar. Difference is we've (seemingly) actually already lost 1, whilst also being drained of senior depth. I could post more about all the things I'm excited about. On this occasion I chose to post about what I'm concerned about. It's not supposed to offend you and if it makes you uncomfortable, that's perhaps telling you're not quite as confident as you might think. It's not pessimistic - just honest discussion. Try it.

Training dialogue is all opinion pieces mate. You think so and so looked good. They ran drills that were interesting for reason X Y and Z. All according to you, as you're entitled to present given you make the effort to attend. Either way it's all just footy discussion which is what we're here for. The midfield depth is the primary concern. I just don't see how we could cope with Oliver out if say Viney or Trac pick up anything medium to long term. It actually becomes pretty crucial that Gus becomes a part of that rotation and there are some obvious doubts on that. Rivers might make a good mid but we're projecting there, and it will rob us of a very important and strong 1v1 defender that I'm not sure bowey could replace. However you cut it, Laurie, Woewodin and [insert out of position journeyman or 18 year old] aren't the quality of depth needed to win a flag (in my opinion). Add our flakey key forward woes where we rely on Petty who's made of glass and a very young KPF in JVR who will have down days, and I just worry about the ability of this list - stars down to the last resort players - to go the distance. If everything goes right and we stay healthy, sure, I agree we are a dangerous side. Unlikely we get the best case scenario, though we can hope!

Did not go to training, responding to what's been written (this session and others), the state of the injury list, the other well publicised issues and my own ruminations. Been around long enough to see some signs. Hope I'm wrong.

We will be doing very well to stay top 4 at this rate. Likely to be missing our best player in Oliver for who knows how long, Tmac and BBB seemingly over the hill, May and Gawn a year older and at the moment, no real depth or youth to excite this year other than perhaps Rivers/McVee continuing to progress. I like Laurie and Woey, but if our midfield depth has become those two, Chandler and ANB in spurts, that spells trouble. Add to this the long absence of useful swingman/forwards Smith/Melk, McAdam so far appearing as injury prone as he is famous for, a big question mark on how Gus looks on return as well as some pretty significant mental scarring at this point (across the team, not just Gus), and it honestly feels like we are a Petracca injury away from missing the finals or even bottom 6. Sydney's list is stronger, Carlton are improving quickly and Collingwood's fan base won't let them complacently carry on. Adelaide are also improving rapidly and should compete if Walker can keep defying his age. The middle of our list is thinner than it's been for years. Just feels like we are slipping off the best teams at the moment. Don't come for my throat - just can't shake the feeling we are due to tumble. It's not MFCSS either - i haven't felt this way about the list in at least 5 years I think.

I'm no fan of Caulfield the area or the South-East in general - (I know a lot of you live there but tbh there are far better places to live in Melbourne that are relatively unexplored by the standard East/Southeast types) - but I agree that this seems like a terrific option for our base which ticks a lot of boxes. We were always going to have to compromise on a few things but all in all this seems to have relatively few. I'm not sure of the appeal/obssession with Port Melbourne, which in some parts is basically inaccessible by public transport. Beggars cant be choosers...

We all know if May had done this they probably would have found a way to boot him from the game Doing it to De Goey is an unfair comparison btw....the comparison is a fair, best 3-5 22 prime mover who is universally loved by the team and across the comp. Think sidebottom, who incidentally, they would not have won the GF without I'm still furious about it all, it's such a shame

Well he's not a patch on IQ. Has quietly become just about the best mid sized defender in the comp

Doesn't have anything close to Quaynors athletic profile. I like what Bowser brings but his 1v1 losses in the d50 have been very costly and he is our weak link down back in that regard. I think he'd be a very handy half forward with his skills and nous around goal.

Thanks all for the comments A few things -we should petition the club to give WCW the media gig. She's already doing a better job then they are at bringing us information (& photos!) - one reason for McAdam leaving Adelaide was apparently disagreements with Burgess. We may be seeing why .. - disappointing to hear on Jefferson. Everything pointed out aligns with my fears for him.