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This is a very very good call. They recognised what was possible with Heeney and added the support around him via Jordon and Adams. Between Jordon and Grundy, we have significantly enhanced their side (potentially to a premiership level) for extremely little in return.

That doesn't absolve the list management team of anything. If there is no money for the 2nd / 3rd stringers that hold the team together and allow the stars to do their thing,that's a major problem. Honestly, this isn't hard to understand. Oliver was rewarded for his very questionable off season with a Rd 1 berth. He and Viney get picked every week regardless of their output. Sparrow likewise. They get games because there is no one else. Show me the incentive, and I'll show you the outcome. None of these guys have anyone trying to take their spot. They've reached the zenith before and know how hard it is. They're taking home 1m a year for a long time as reward for that, whether they perform or not. They know they'll get picked every week regardless. They're rocking up to work and going through the motions. Culture and standards Culture and standards Culture and standards Roos, his coaching team and Josh Mahoney set all of this up. Goodwin managed to harness it for a time, but since that amazing day it has fallen bit by bit by bit. Natural ageing, tiredness, staleness and most importantly the recruiting of questionable types with little competitive edge & poor standards (and then the rewarding of those players regardless of form) has tipped this team over the edge. The environment and connection is a complete shadow of what it once was. This happens slowly...and then all at once.

Feel like I'm in la la land. I wrote a long thread about this in preseason and was widely shot down. It was really really really obvious this was coming. And I wrote that before Gus retired. It's been obvious for weeks or months now, certainly for anyone who went to the Brisbane game in the flesh.

If you actually understand footy and know what to look for this isn't surprising. List has been monumentally mismanaged since the flag and standards have been poor for a while now. Club is arrogant, stubborn and to boot, dumb. We play players through injury, we don't reward form, we do reward mediocrity and the list management team have made a number of very soft calls. All these little things add up. 21 is all we're seeing folks. I hate it and it makes me sad.

Anyone in here who genuinely thinks we are a flag chance has rocks in their head. Been clear for quite some time.

Tim Lamb. Not JT.

Agree. They're quite far from peaking tbh, their last month has been up and down. Sydney are genuinely peaking and couldn't play any better - too early. Blues were my flag tip before it all began and remain so - have all key items covered and their 2nd/3rd string layer are all contributing solidly and knowing their role. They've as a group also discovered the knack of winning - you can see it. They give me huge '21 Dees vibes and have done for about 18 months

Firstly - you've got it backwards. The nebulous concept is the game plan - because what unfolds on the field is not within the coach or players' control. This isn't basketball, where plays can be scripted with a high degree of control. Or even soccer. With 18 players per team, our number of variables makes much of what unfolds explicitly and mathematically out of our control. That doesn't mean the game plan has zero impact - teams of course try to execute their principles certain ways - but very rarely does it actually play out the way it was intended. What is not nebulous - and is within the teams control - are the principles of how we want to play. This is why Goodwin talks about contest and defence, and why when we are flat - the first piece of feedback is invariably to return to our principles. Gamestyle and personnel / positions are all downstream of this. All MFC supporters have seen this play out - Roos didn't come in and bring some cutting edge game plan. He brought principles, culture and standards. He spoke about it. Goodwin has reinforced that foundation and it is always what's most important. Secondly, you've made my point on Lamb. McVee, JVR and Howes were drafted. By JT. Not acquired at the trade table. The culture and standards have indeed fallen. I've elaborated on this previously and won't revisit this here. It was evident well before any of our most recent off season from hell came to light. You underrate those that left and worse, missed the point. I didn't say they were A graders. I said they had key strengths that aligned to our principles. Even then, objectively Harmes has played 2 or 3 games this year at far higher level than billings or hunter have. Jordon is holding down a midfield spot in the clear best team in the league and quelled Walsh, who coincidentally, destroyed us. Bedford is the worst of this cohort, but his pressure and contest is league leading for his position. We'd be a better team with him in the side. Quality in market - easy in hindsight and impossible to know who we actually had a crack at - but McStay, Chol , BZT, Ratugolea, Hollands, Ginnivan, Henry, Gresham, McKay, Doedee, Amon, Hill, Taranto, Acres, Berry, Bruhn, Bowes, Francis, Meek are all players who could have added something to our team. Obviously this is a stupid exercise as for various reasons a lot of these were probably not possible - but the bottom line is our acquisitions have been mediocre whilst our rivals have added some key pieces, sometimes for a lot of capital, sometimes for not much at all. We were at the peak and didn't need much. 1 or 2 or 3 players adding to the team significantly was probably all we needed. We couldn't do it. In any case, if you genuinely think our work at the trade table has been great or even good, there's no point discussing. To me it's been inarguably poor.

My most important point is the one you agree with. Every other "rubbish" point pretty much supported that. So what is it you disagree with? That we've added quality? Who? That our flag was primarily the work of Jackson (who acquired Roos), Roos (who set the culture and made the call on Oliver), JT (who drafted almost the entire team), Mahoney (who acquired Lever, May and Langdon), or McCartney (who made our young mids the best contest players in the game), or Goodwin (who executed the flag year as a coach)? That before setting a game-style, teams identify the principles of their culture? Might be news to you but it actually is how it's done.

I'm not talking about the team we were. I'm talking about the team we are now.

Sure. But they won't. Kidding yourself

Sure, I rambled a little. I'll sum it up. Gamestyle matters very little and our problem is that the team itself isn't much chop, and that culture and standards have fallen. Plenty on here saw it coming. You lot are wasting your time throwing theoretical "gamestyle, score source" arguments into the void to avoid coming to terms with the more jarring reality that this list is no longer capable of success. It's easier to blame tactics. I get it. Most EPL club owners do the same thing.

Honestly this is getting uselessly academic & tiresome. At best, game styles are almost entirely aspirational and depend on what each opposition brings. Add in the randomness of 36 on-ground individuals making distinct and random decisions, as well as external factors like weather and umpires...you get the drift. Some sports have narrower guardrails by their nature - we are pretty free form. Imo the point of the 'gamestyle' isn't to dictate how and when we execute plays - but is moreso about imbuing principles - contest, defence, tempo - that players can remember and execute in split second decisions in the heat of battle. For a few years there, our principles were strong and clear and suited the strengths of our key players and role players. We also established really high standards and fostered a culture that maintained this. The list build was informed by these principles and standards, and so we were in sync at all levels - AFL through to VFL. To take advantage of this, we had several of the best players in the AFL in key positions, and some pretty good players in other positions too. Ultimately this is the most important thing. The best players will always control who wins games. Following the flag, the culture and standards started to fall away, and crucially we've recruited individuals who were not suited to our principles (Hunter, Schache, Billings, Fullarton). A lot of our 'very good' players who's strengths agreed to our principles (Brayshaw, Hibberd) either retired, regressed (Sparrow, Bowey, Brown, Mcdonald) or left the club (Harmes, Jordon, Jackson, Bedford). All these guys had flaws, but were strong at our principles. We've replaced them with players who have some other strengths, but don't align to the Melbourne principles. They become weak links in the chain. Most importantly, the remaining players who embodied our principles the most (Viney & Oliver) have fallen off a cliff for different reasons. We look so unrecognisable because our contest is gone. We're no longer winning more than our share of critical contests - bottom 4 at clearances, bottom 10 at contested footy. Our tackling is weak. This is not the fault of the coaching staff, who showed they could build the environment and a set of principles that can be successful. It's way too easy to blame our issues on a "gamestyle". Our window is over because of our recruiting and list building since the flag, which has been probably the worst of any team in the comp. Other than Windsor this year, we have not added a single player who has added positively to the team. Not a single one. There has been plenty of quality on the market in positions we needed. We either can't identify it, can't attract it, or couldn't pay for it because we've locked up so many on long term contracts. Why Tim Lamb gets love around here is beyond me - he's done a horrendous job. He wouldn't be making list decisions in a vacuum, but it ultimately falls on him. JT, Josh Mahoney, Roos, Jackson, Brendan Mccartney and Goodwin were responsible for our flag, and Lamb is responsible for our stagnation since. Gamestyle gamestyle gamestyle bla bla - Goodwin no longer has the cattle at his disposal.

On the contrary, he'll be relieved I think

They're just not popping in my head when I think of contenders. Can't figure out why...

Tis a good point. Maybe Scott has underachieved? Or maybe, as we all seem to remember when almost every premier fails to go back to back...it's incredibly hard and you need a truckload of luck

Whilst I still think Carlton are the team to beat this year, it's hard to deny Geelong is pretty much the best run club in the AFL. Yes, they have natural advantages (the home ground and the region). But they consistently make the most of them by recruiting and developing incredibly well. We all saw the cliff coming - so they go and get Cameron to win them another flag with that generation. Now another cliff - they bring in a cohort of 22-24 year olds with senior experience - Bruhn, Bowes, O Henry - for really not much in capital (negative capital in the sake of Bowes). With our list profile - where that is an age group we are light on outside of Kozzie, Riv and Sparrow - we'd be lucky to have acquired any of those three. Add to this a drafting and recruiting staff that really very rarely miss even though they aren't getting top top picks - think SDK, Holmes, J Henry et.al - and you have a perennial contender. Arguably the best off field stuff in the AFL, an amazing culture of high achievement and one of if not the best coaches in the game too. They make smart decisions - where we sometimes rush players in, they rest their ageing or banged up stars when they don't need them (in turn passing responsibility to the next generation). A club that knows how to do it and plays the long game (vs. Us playing track with a broken leg etc. in our desperation to win again in our brief window) A lucky club in some ways, but extraordinarily well run. They are an example we should be trying to follow. I don't like them at all, but respect what they do. Sydney the closest thing from a consistency and cultural perspective. Perhaps no small coincidence they also benefit from an academy which is analogous to the recruiting advantages of the Vic surf coast. I suspect we aren't quite at their level this year especially with the level of youth we are carrying in the team, but very happy to be pleasantly surprised otherwise!

Perfect post. We arent competing for the flag, and barely for the 4, if Howes Woey Windsor and Laurie are mainstays. We could maybe carry 2 of them, but our bottom 6-8 just become so poor - it's not the list profile of a competing team. Especially if our stars continue to underperform and the more developed youth (Petty, Sparrow) offer next to nothing.

Not sure what issue anyone can have with this post. He's allowed to have his opinion and it appears its reasonably informed and well laid out, whilst obviously also pointing out he would support Fullarton if selected. Personally I've never actually watched him play a game so have nothing to add. We probably need to see what he has sooner or later either way - we took the time to recruit him, so unless they think Brown & Petty with JVR in the ruck is our Plan A (it might be) then wouldn't mind seeing him play. Tigers have two good tall defenders in Young and Miller, but they are young and can be beaten.

Yep this is (mostly) it. The 6-8 assessment isn't really a reflection of the W-L records at the moment...we are 6 games in and if the fixture is compromised for a whole year, it's beyond compromised and barely comparable across teams after 6 rounds. Record to date is a factor (probability-wise) in terms of likelihood for top 2/4, but a minor one having only played 25% of the season. The comment is more rooted in my (subjective) assessment of the lists, strengths/weaknesses, gamestyle and the very very subjective vibe I get from watching. Of course that's informed by who they've all played - so it's all a subjective exercise. But almost everything is - doesn't mean you can't discuss it or project forward. IMO at this stage you need to watch for what each team looks like at its best, knowing that there will be aberrations along the way. Carlton aren't infallible but they have terrific depth. It's the best list in the comp by some margin. Somewhere between 4-8 of their best 22 out and they've not skipped a beat. The midfield bats 6-8 deep on A-C+ quality (ours is probably 5 deep at best). Players like Cowan would have gotten many more games on a list like ours. More generally, they just have the look of a side that has figured out how to win. They are finding results in a number of ways, know themselves and just look engaged and hungry in every spot. Call it culture - they're building something special there. It reminds me of us in many ways. Yeah, they lost to Adelaide....who had a 1 in 100 day in front of goal and barely missed. Owies missed a sitter with 1 min to go that would have sealed it. They were the better team. It happens. Are they perfect? No - they probably lack an elite 2nd KPD and rely on Weitering a lot - but then so do we with May. TDK is their Jackson style point of difference. It's their flag to lose and I think we are watching their 2021. Geelong I'm actually less sold on - I think they are still propped up by their ageing stars to a degree and question their durability - but they have an extremely soft draw so are top 4 locks - and their younger cohort is underrated. Bruhn is a star not getting the attention he deserves, and between SDK/Close/Stengel/the Henry's etc. they've actually managed the exit of their superstars extremely well. People still don't realise what a luxury Blicavs is. It's a good list with a good coach, good culture and a soft draw. They'll go close. You'd be hard pressed to watch GWS and convince yourself there is a better offensive team in the comp. Their general skill level and footy IQ across most positions is off the charts. And their point of difference to the other top teams is pace, in most spots. They rely on Hogan to score and his form is a big factor for their form - but he looks so healthy and happy so no reason to suspect it might not continue. As much as I lauded Carlton above, Taylor and Coniglio probably make GWS a 3 goal better side considering it was Curnow/McKay who did it. But that speaks to their depth - which isn't quite at Carlton levels. They're the top 3 imo. Sydney have an incredible young midfield, but will need McDonald, amartey and Maclean to fire and I don't think that's a flag quality fwd line. Port also have an incredible young midfield, but lack the real quality depth around the flanks IMO and have a questionable culture when the going gets tough. Brisbane, who knows given their start. We know they're good enough but not convinced they have the mentality. Pies - don't have the best list, haven't for a while, but have an amazing amazing coach, many good players and the best young player in the league. Obvious thing to say that if they get on a roll they can do it. We're towards the bottom half of that mix imo. We have arguably the strongest culture which gets us far, but probably out of that group the weakest depth where it matters most - in midfield. The loss of Gus, Jordon, Harmes in one fell swoop and to a lesser extent Dunstan is starting to show in there with Clarry struggling. And other than Fritsch or Koz (who we insert into the mid because of lack of depth), we dont really have a forward line that can cover a soundly beaten midfield. We do have the defence- but a lot of that is an ageing May. When he has bad days we look very vulnerable, particularly against fast skilful sides. We are objectively weaker than 2021 in just about every spot that's changed - we haven't adequately replaced Hibberd, Jackson or Harmes in my opinion. McVee a great find, but not quite Hibberd level defensively (yet). Bowey is a bit better than 2021, but not a heap. Sparrow too. Add the loss of Gus (who Hunter or Billings are not a patch on) and it just adds up. Windsor has been a find, but he's a kid. Howes is imo not of the quality required for a top 4 side, JVR too. The loss of Jackson, who cost us so much in such a unique and valuable position in the modern game, is massive. Grundy was a mistake, and now JVR is having to make a decent, but not difference making fist of it. We're good, sometimes great, but our games against Sydney, Port and Brisbane just showed signs that we don't quite have enough bases covered this year. Go nuts on me - don't really care, just my opinion and enjoy the footy talk if we can keep it to that.

Certainly feels like we're firmly in the 6-8 bracket doesn't it.

Yeo despises the Dees. Would never happen.

Love the optimism but not sure Harry will still be around in 2035 anyway

Yeah. Not what I expected from him. Prepared to excuse a poor debut - Petty's is still the worst I've ever seen - but he looked completely unsure about when to go or when to stay. Shouldn't have played, potentially harmful to his development. Needs time at Casey to learn. I know Laurie hasn't blown us away but is the closest positionally to what Koz provides ...has been around....has dominated vfl and put in a massive pre season. He deserved the chance. Poor decision to give Kolt the debut.

Can you point me to those outings please. Might help us all feel better