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What happened? All the earlier names you mentioned were long term lures by Mahoney and Todd Viney. All those since the flag are Tim Lamb.

Should have moved on to Yze when we had the chance.

Is this honestly new news to you? At what point during Oliver's adventures down the well, Petracca's brand-driven off season episode, Viney's drawn out contract negotiation or May's latest pub scuffle were you convinced our leaders were acting in the best interest of the team?

I perhaps wasn't as strong calling for Goodwin out in 22 but I flagged a lot of issues at the time too and got my head chopped off. Wasn't hard to see if you really looked.

Get em dazzle

I'm not talking only about their football ability. I'm talking about their character, intensity, desire...Hunter was a bad influence on several in the group off field and for a senior player, didn't set an example to the group (and actually set a bad cultural example). Billings and schache play with zero intensity. McAdam perhaps harsh, sure. Point is the character and belief of the playing group is the sum of the parts. These might seem small flaws within individuals but when you add 3, 4, 5 questionable characters a year the shape and complexion of the group changes over time - subtly at first and then at critical mass. Bugg, Kennedy and Newton weren't amazing players but put in. Bugg did a lot for the character of the group and made the likes of Watts a much better player for a few years there as part of our rise as at the very least, he could inspire confidence and gumption in his team mates. You're missing the point with McKenna. Never made the grade, but didn't negatively impact culture or standards. Lamb, Richardson, Goodwin allowed these types of flaws and efforts into our club...it changes the culture slowly. Others see what Hunter gets away with, or that half assed efforts get you a game if you're Schache or Billings. Standards & Culture, Standards & Culture, Standards & Culture. I don't understand how any of you who followed this team from the dark days and watched it turn can't see how things have changed on this front.

This is the post. Someone with a line to the club please send it to Brad Green. The club is only as good as the people in it, and the leaders at the helm. We've lost a lot of good people and the leaders are lacking.

Thats the Burgess magic trick. He flogged them hard but kept insisting it was to make them the fittest. Whether they actually were....hard to tell. But they believed they were. One of the rare high performance coaches that knows it's as much psychological and motivational as it is physical. Selwyn might know a lot about anatomy and a bit about loading (Ahem) but he's about as inspirational as the Myki train voiceover

It turned when we finally brought quality individuals in to run the club. Jackson, Mahoney, Viney, McCartney, Roos, Taylor, Burgess. They raised the standards and changed the culture, taught the kids how to play and how to play as a team. The best teams and organisations have the best leadership. It shows over and over and over again. People downplay it, think it is easy, think it's overpaid. It's not. Success has followed Fagan. The Cats and Swans have had great stable leadership for years. Hardwick clearly takes it with him where he goes, and he had Peggy. Some people have it, and most don't. I think Goodwin has some good leadership traits but I don't think he is at Roos, Fagan, Longmire, Hardwick levels. More importantly, I think the rest of the club is sorely lacking leaders of the quality we had when it turned. Until we make those appointments again...we won't return to the top. Hunter, Billings, Schache, McAdam - those are recruiting decisions that wouldn't have happened under Roos' watch, or Todd Viney's watch. It's run it's course now.

I think Selwyn is a problem but we have one guy who has busted his gut to be fitter than most of the list - Bill Laurie. Not only that, but churns out a stat line in the VFL. Not a great player necessarily - but does he get a look in? No. Not a coach's favourite. Has never been given an extended run in the team. Is he better than Henderson? Sharp? Absolutely. But they get the benefit of the doubt because they're new. Goodwin lost me when Oliver played round 1 last year after spending most of the summer on another planet. He has always played favourites and there has been zero selection integrity for years. Senior players rushed back when injured, time and time again. The coaching is poor and the standards are poor, and yes we have immature melodramatic leaders. The best (ANB) left the club and is now lifting the standards in Adelaide with Burgess. Our flag team was built on real coaches who taught the game - Roos, McCartney, Rawlings. Stafford, the scapegoat for the conversion proglems...taught Gawn how to ruck, after Roos and Stynes inspired him to be great. We have [censored] leaders, amateur coaches and our young players are regressing.

Forest for the trees people....at current rate AFL will not involve body contact or even possessing the ball in 15 years. Goody a master coach, always ahead of his time

Whilst the players do look confused, I don't think we should conflate a chronic, pervasive lack of confidence with a bad game plan. I don't know what the new game plan is....I'm not sure we've seen it....perhaps glimpses in round 1 (but it was wet). Those that go to training may know what it is but the rest of us can't possibly judge it at this point. One thing we do know for sure is that no game plan would be successful when players can't make simple passes, fumble the ball at ground level, don't work for each other and show little effort off the ball. These are the issues we currently face and they are rooted in no confidence, no joy, no connection. I think between losing at the death and capitulating to north Melbourne, they're shellshocked. Off the back of such a tumultuous 18 months, it doesn't take much to wedge open a crack in a fragile group. That's what's happened ...and whilst we might think the suns at home was a good chance to respond ..it's almost perversely worse ..we couldn't do it again could we? Then it began....and kept going....and the lack of confidence spiralled even deeper. Causing more fumbling, less talk, less joy. Carlton are in a similar albeit perhaps less dramatic place. They are clearly better than Richmond but being scared to lose in that 2nd half was like a virus that infected all of them. They're still struggling to shake it. Bad leadership perhaps, but I think what we are seeing is a group that has not healed from last year. Perhaps they never will. Honestly we had to take the chance to start fresh. I love Trac and clarry but our problems are clearly starting at centre bounce. They once played for each other...they certainly don't anymore. The dogs did the right thing moving on Baz ..even if they got unders. He's now someone else's distraction (a stronger club, that can handle it) whilst the dogs are playing team oriented footy with some lesser lights and newbies feeling ownership and purpose. What I hate is we are desperate. We push them out, then beg them to stay. We rush back injured starts. We play the first rounders right away. We throw the skipper under the bus looking for excuses. We throw two VFL boys in the hope they are diamonds in the rough. For a good few years there ...we took our time. Petty was given a long apprenticeship in the VFL. Trac came back from his knee thru the vfl. Etc. etc....we played long term games. Weak clubs look for short term solutions. And we are a very weak club.

I called the culture problem before a ball had been kicked in 23. Got roundly smashed here by everyone.

Yep We had serious swagger and teams were often intimidated by our physicality. We're now bruise free. Not just the names above...but Lachie Hunter. Bad character - ordinary player. Who knows what impact he had on the group or some individuals. Jayden Hunt was another good character. We shipped them all out.

I miss the good people we had around our club. Gus, Nibbler, Hibberd, Jetta. Bedford, Jordon. All had flaws but guys you could rely on to crack in. Honestly the types Tim Lamb brought in....billings...schache...Grundy...mcadam....we moved away from guys that could win contests...to guys that just have no physicality. Or weak mentality. Or weak bodies. You couldn't have managed a list more poorly if you tried. We were such a brutal team at the peak. Sigh

It's all caught up with him so quickly. It's one thing to say his kicking is poor...it always has been. But all of a sudden he's a liability in the context and at ground level, can't create any separation around scrimmage and can't lay a tackle. Huge part of our clearance problems at the moment. Needs to be dropped. Give Langford his time on ball

Yeah - after that showing last week - the one thing that speaks volumes is the clear lack of spirit today from the opening bounce. You don't have a to be a great team - but if you can't show up with energy when a response was required, at a home game against a minnow who has struggled here and had no fanbase to contend with....it speaks. Very loudly. He has lost the group. Unfortunately there is now little quality around him. We couldn't attract a credentialed midfield or backline coach. We're going to be down a long time I think. Should have cut our losses when Oliver and Trac wanted out - and started again with the bounty. Ironically it might have been the best thing for Simon to buy him time. This era is finished - the leaders are finished. Should have transitioned to Yze when we had the chance. Players loved him and you could see the Richmond kids play for him in rd1. They'll lose most games (our rival for the spoon) but at least they showed up with spirit. Entire team bar Aidan Johnson (who is a long long way away from being AFL standard) was not interested today. Unacceptable

Never seen them so disinterested under goodwin. Think he's lost them.

Seriously why are you just saying this now? What have you been watching for the last 3 years???? Or for their entire careers?

Some very interesting early observations on Mitchell and the Hawks in this thread.

Very well said. I have no idea really if Goodwin is part of the problem or not. But what I can judge with my own eyes is that we don't have the team the modern game requires, and we haven't since they introduced the stand rule and 666.

As did Lamb. The flag was Peter Jackson, Mahoney, Todd Viney, Taylor and Roos (for inspiring Gawn). And Burgess. As is often the way, most of them weren't there to enjoy it and others have been taking credit ever since.

By the way - I am rapidly losing all faith in Lever. He is a poor 1v1 defender, a poor kick, average decision maker and often found out at ground level. You can't play an intercepter these days that offers nothing going forward. He's a big part of our problems in d50 - we are beyond pathetic when the ball hits the deck. He can't move, Tom Mac can't move, Petty is too big, Salem is old and today Rivers was a total headless chook. Bowey is the only small ground level running player down there and he has clear deficiencies defensively. Mcvee covers a lot of errors. As Hibberd did before him, and Jetta before him. We clearly lack that player when he isn't there (Alarming) There was a point in the last when Lever was caught upfield and was genuinely more interested in telling off Howes' positioning than be was getting back and defending his man. He was literally gesticulating towards Howes whilst the north guy was kicking the ball over his head. He ended up giving the free kick away as he couldn't turn to look at the ball, as he totally lacks athleticism. Just the wrong type of leadership. And a pretty average player to boot.

There is a point here that often gets lost. To the person asking what the problem is with our two late 20s superstars taking the huge $$s...the problem is them. I loved the flag and it wasn't a fluke. But do I think we would have won if we weren't forced to live in a bubble for half the year? No, I don't. I think our best players are easily distracted, often focused on the wrong things, naturally selfish and in their own heads. In a world where everything else stopped - this was ideal, as all those distractions fell away and the wandering focus was directed into one thing - the '21 outcome. Since they both reached their peak, our successes have always rested on trac and Clarry's shoulders. Gawn has been incredible, Viney a warrior and some good players have passed through around them. But it's always been down to Trac and Clarry. If they aren't right, we aren't right.

He's an ok young key forward, but he has always struggled to create separation. Our kicking to him a part of that but he doesn't know how or when to lead. Doesn't quite have the burst the best forwards have, and beyond that doesn't kick goals enough ways to be a 50-60 goal a year forward. If he isn't getting set shots, he's not in the play. Has time, but needs to start improving.