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As did Lamb. The flag was Peter Jackson, Mahoney, Todd Viney, Taylor and Roos (for inspiring Gawn). And Burgess. As is often the way, most of them weren't there to enjoy it and others have been taking credit ever since.

By the way - I am rapidly losing all faith in Lever. He is a poor 1v1 defender, a poor kick, average decision maker and often found out at ground level. You can't play an intercepter these days that offers nothing going forward. He's a big part of our problems in d50 - we are beyond pathetic when the ball hits the deck. He can't move, Tom Mac can't move, Petty is too big, Salem is old and today Rivers was a total headless chook. Bowey is the only small ground level running player down there and he has clear deficiencies defensively. Mcvee covers a lot of errors. As Hibberd did before him, and Jetta before him. We clearly lack that player when he isn't there (Alarming) There was a point in the last when Lever was caught upfield and was genuinely more interested in telling off Howes' positioning than be was getting back and defending his man. He was literally gesticulating towards Howes whilst the north guy was kicking the ball over his head. He ended up giving the free kick away as he couldn't turn to look at the ball, as he totally lacks athleticism. Just the wrong type of leadership. And a pretty average player to boot.

There is a point here that often gets lost. To the person asking what the problem is with our two late 20s superstars taking the huge $$s...the problem is them. I loved the flag and it wasn't a fluke. But do I think we would have won if we weren't forced to live in a bubble for half the year? No, I don't. I think our best players are easily distracted, often focused on the wrong things, naturally selfish and in their own heads. In a world where everything else stopped - this was ideal, as all those distractions fell away and the wandering focus was directed into one thing - the '21 outcome. Since they both reached their peak, our successes have always rested on trac and Clarry's shoulders. Gawn has been incredible, Viney a warrior and some good players have passed through around them. But it's always been down to Trac and Clarry. If they aren't right, we aren't right.

He's an ok young key forward, but he has always struggled to create separation. Our kicking to him a part of that but he doesn't know how or when to lead. Doesn't quite have the burst the best forwards have, and beyond that doesn't kick goals enough ways to be a 50-60 goal a year forward. If he isn't getting set shots, he's not in the play. Has time, but needs to start improving.

Honestly, I don't mind it. Nice and early in the season to have this kind of wake up call. Those of us here who can see the forest for the trees have known this was coming for a while. We have been treading water as a club for two years. We've had some leadership turnover, but not enough. We were unable to attract any top up talent following a flag, and our stars and leaders are questionable characters with questionable motivations. Those that are on the level (Lever) just aren't very good players. We lost our best leader and best human in the offseason (ANB). We've been unable to attract any solid 50-150 game players that have genuine scope to become A graders, despite having a crack at plenty. I have said it before - but in the period of time Tim Lamb has oversees this list, it gets worse every year. I mean honestly...what does it say when Henderson is drafted one week and playing AFL the next? I like him but When Spargo has barely run for 2 years and then gets a call up right away? He has systematically undone a masterful list build overseen by Josh Mahoney and Todd Viney. I yearn for the days when you could take our FD at its word. I think Richardson is a perennial loser (sorry) and in Jones we have first timer, even if he is a beloved club legend, coaching the most important part of the team. Either this sparks some change, or it starts a year of significant failure. We needed it either way.

Agree it's been an issue for far too long. But the absolutely lunacy and idiocy of the kicking i50 is just as bad an issue, if not worse. From seasoned, best and fairest winning midfielders. One in particular today.

It's a good comparison. We'd be ecstatic if he could be as good as Kelly, even with his slight contest flaws

Yeah I'm just projecting. Interested in what he could become. Plenty of time and was a super game 1

And you arent reading. I didn't say he couldn't take a hit. We all saw him back into packs. I'm not questioning his courage or application - but the one area of his game I have a question mark is whether he can win physical 1v1 battles. Langdon wins more than his fair share for his size and it's a critical, underrated part of wingplay and also a key determinant of whether he has midfield scope at AFL level. Now he's a kid and he's played one game - and for 3 years will likely lose more 1v1s than he wins until he's physically developed. So as I said, time will tell.

What? Ive never expressed an interest in Travaglia. I said Lalor would be far and away the best player in this draft and everyone now knows why. Knew XL would bring composure and good outside running. Hadn't appreciated how good his footy IQ was. Still hold concerns for the contested part of his game....wasnt hugely tested on it on the weekend as stayed very outside. Not talking about his backing into packs btw...moreso his ability to win a hard ball or win 1v1s preventing him having the scope to be a mid rather than a winger. Time will tell - but was a fantastic debut.

If his role was a defensive one then that's even more damning....

Also gave 2 goals away in the first half through lazy kicks...going backwards no less

Can we be serious - it may have been a set play but they botched the kick out. It was a scramble on the deck and Darcy Jones handballed blind into the corridor. It was a throw of the dice. If it was anyone other than the jet Finn Callaghan, they likely wouldn't have gotten there before Henderson. From there they had the ball free in the corridor and lots of free players had cheated forward. If Henderson got there first we would have had free players in our f50. A bit of luck their way, but really Callaghan won the game

Most of their scores came from Finn Callaghan breaking lines. Just arches his back and away they go, zone broken. Phenomenal player. He was the reason for the last score as well. XL went well and I was particularly pleased with Bowey, as I have been very critical of him over the summer. Langford could barely move despite playing only one quarter. Especially when defending. He still found the ball ok but his stuff without the ball needs a lot of work. Fritsch played a pretty pathetic game. JVR couldn't take a grab either. But they played on Taylor and Buckley who are nigh unbeatable as a duo. Missed a few shots but so did they. Either result would have been fair...they happened to get in front at the right time.

Yep it's good recruiting. Three very solid citizens with the right levels of experience. 3 at a time is significant and really elevates their team. They'll play finals without a doubt. Don't forget this is yr3 for burgess....they may just explode

Only hindsight will tell whether it was wise or not. Houston would absolutely help us win now and he'll probably help the Pies go quite close. We still have our stars and the window with Gawn and May is closing, but I'm not sure the rest of our 22 is premiership quality anyway. Taking Langford could set us up to stay within striking distance in a few years time.

Who thinks the pies are bottom 10? They're totally stacked on most lines. Houston a complete game changer

Meek will go close to AA. Little known secret - Max started mentoring him last year just when Meek started dominating games. Our GOAT On another note, hawthorn will absolutely slice us up...and most teams tbh if they play like this. Fast, creative, tough, so skilful and then the 3 big rock interceptors. I was hoping they'd slide back to reality but right now they look like they've gone to another level entirely Sydney on the other hand seem significantly weaker than last year. No Errol makes a huge difference.

Some very astute commentary in here from DeeSpencer, Dazzle and KozzyCan. The voices of reason bubbling to the top now there is some genuine exposed form against good opposition. We have an unbalanced list and continue to have too many of the same types.

Small defenders and small forwards are a real problem. Bowey - don't care how many touches he got - he did extremely little constructive work. Overkicks, runs into trouble and he's actually a very bad defender, weak tackler and not very accountable. Panics under pressure. He frequently has bags kicked on him. I honestly can't remember when he ever shut a good small forward down. But at the same time, he really doesn't offer that much going the other way. Being a nice penetrating stationary kick who takes kick outs is not enough. We can do better. The gap between Koz and Chandler is too big and without ANB there, Chandler looks lost and not at the level. Unfortunately all our best forwards are medium sized and don't apply pressure. It's quite the glaring list hole. If Langford can show a bit - and I'm not quite sold he's ready - I would consider putting Viney in as a small forward. Not slow, has tricks, will pressure and could be a leader in a forward line completely devoid of it..

Pretty off Lever. Doesn't do anything. Chandler likewise, I've been a defender but has has a very hum ho pre season

Wonderful to see Clarry back

BOWEY

Has been for a while. Offers very little going the other way as well. Fremantle expose us the same way every time - tough lads in the middle to win traditionally when they can, a very staunch defence to catch our dump kicks when they lose clearance and then slingshot with all their fast wingers and half forwards against our treacle half backs.

Everyone still think Bowey is an excellent half back?