Bedraggled Dee

Interesting that you comments could be cut and paste into similar debates in the 2012. "Long term benfits" of loosing is a lie that we have bought into over the years. Collingwood and Hawthorn drafted well 10-12 years ago but the AFL is a very different place now. Ask Carlton how their early picks have gone? What about GWS or Gold Coast who have had access to more than we could ever hope for. There are way more fails than wins down this path and in the process the foundation of the club is erroded. It is proven that an early draft pic is not guarantee of success. But hoping to fnish last to get one IMO is a guarantee of failiure.

Why????????????? I assume its the belief that they have more to play for. FFS we are playng for the future of the club. Regarding your point 2, finishing last and in your words 'drafting and trading the best talent in the land' has worked a treat for us so far. It s not a guarantee and should not be an desired option. Getting the right player is stil as much about luck as science. Ollie Wines is a case in point.

The point is we should care. Its not about being emotional its about setting standards and setting a club culture and gettng the players to believe. We can all agree we have improved in terms of defence but the ladder positon is not arbitary, it is the measure of perfomance for AFL teams. Finishing last is bad. It is bad for the players, bad for the club and bad for the supporters. If we fiinish last this year it is arguable that we have gone backwards relative to the rest of the competition. Yes our percentage has improved but to what effect, a drop in ladder position, whoopty do. We are currently 6%age points from our position at the end of 2012. 5 more losses and we dont even make 2012 standards. This is not up for debate, the figures dont lie. Without at least 2 and hopefully 3 wins we will have acheived very little other than narrowing our win/loss band width.

I agree Ron, If we are ever going to get out of the current position we need to stop replacing developed played for youngsters. If we loose Frawley it will be someone else next year and someone the year after and eventually we will start losing the players under FA we got in compensation for previous FA loses.

The fact that we have die hard demons on this forum seemingly happy with another poor season is disapointing. It smacks of a loosing club culture that is still in place. I doubt that any of the players would be thinking this way but obviously in the past this attitude was promulgated by the administration to the detriment of the club. We have been years in recovery from this. None of us should ever accept this attitude around this club again. Winning the wooden spoon should be seen as the discrace that it is. I dont give a rats if we got the first three picks, nothing can compensate for the damage another rubbish year will do to the psyche of the playing group. Roos has said it time and time again, his biggest task is fixing the problem between the players ears. I recon these last 5 rounds are critcal to the development of this team and can set us up for a good year next year or consign us to more misery. Hopefully we beat Brisbane and GWS and can jag at least another win. To me that is the only acceptable outcome.

I will be filthy if we finish last. Early draft picks do not compensate for the effect of loosing on team culture and moral. We can recruit a team full of number 1 picks but they will never amount to anything without the right mindset and that can only be obtained from a winning culture. Have a look at the Cats and how later draft picks have come on in that environment. You could argue its the chicken or the egg thing but IMO the culture is first and then we can worry about the cattle. We have been competetive but need to translate that into wins to develop this team. It is critcal the boys get reward for effort and get a couple more wins this year. Sunday is a very important game that we should win.

I hate this FA rubbish. Chip obviously wants success and would prefer to remain a Dee and get the success but he needs to consider that statistically the wealthy clubs will play more finals and win more flags. Where are the Dees now? On the right track but still a loooooong way behind the leaders. Forwards - 1 untired youngster with loads of potential and short at least 1 ket tall and a quality crumber (JKH, Kent??) Mids - Light on for size and experience with no depth. Basically held together by Jones, Vince, Cross and Tyson with support from Viney, and some C graders Backs - Good backline with at least some depth. Missing a key running defender to break the lines (Maceski??) If I was Chip what would I do?. Hang around for less money knowing we are at least 2 draft/trade perods away from getting a decent list, thats if everything falls our way and we dont loose players we need to keep . Best scenario is finals next year but realy making up the numbers for at least 2-3. At the Dees he will be 29-30 before the club hits a realistic window and thats if all goes strictly to plan. The alternative is walk away now and start playing finals and give yourself a chance for a flag, and earn more money with probably better facilities and support. I hate it but if I was pragmatic and in his position I would walk. if he does it will be to a club that gives him what he wants, a chance to be successful money is secondary because he wont be offered stupid amounts like Scully was. It wont be GWS and I recon less likely to be GC. he will have the choice of the Pies, the hawks and the Cats and if I was him given the lists I would head to the pies, The Cats and Hawks have old lists they need to regenerate while the Pies are coming out iof a bit of rebuild and performing well.

The question isnt realy about Frawley. I dont think Frawley is a gun and yes a pick 5 could be a win but that draft pick wont come good untill around 2017/18 after development. In the mean time further senior players get jack of waiting for the club to come good and leave under FA. At some stage we have to convince that pick 5 and everyone else like him to stay past 6-8 years or what ever the FA criteria ends up being by then or we continually end up getting in kids or other rejects to fill gaps and never get the class mature list we need to win a flag. In effect we become a feeder club. Malceski is 29 and would be great for a couple of years but Fawley is only 25 has a good 5-7 years left in him including his prime, Malceski is no replacement for Frawley. I understand the emotive side because thats what drives our life long support of the club and I am no different. I hate our players bailing from the club and dont like FA. That being said FA was always inevitable but I doubt I wil get used to it.

Pretty good assessment of Frawley and i agree that FA is here so we need to get used to players delayng conracts to maximise the pay but. The bottom line for me is that the MFC will find a move up the ladder long and hard if as has been the case the majority of the developed players hitting their prime move on under FA. We can all argue the relative merits of the FA losses and gains to date but long term if we loose the majority of developed players when they hit the FA criteria it is a bad thing. Yes at times we will pick up players like Vince from other clubs but the trend of the best players going to successful clbs will ensure that we will loose over time. We need Frawley to hang around because all Australian developed backmen dont grow on trees. If Frawley leaves we are back to having to find a key back and key forward (replacing Clark) and adding depth and class to the midfield. That is not a one year fix.

No to Ling, big fat black line through his name. He might have the skill sets but he is untried an not fully committed. We have one chance at this and there has to be a good quality assistant with some years in the system who wants the job. If not the AFL has a significant problem. What about Rawlings? Has the background is well liked by the players and has an existing relationship with Roos and the other assistants. I recon one of the reasons filling this role was never a huge priority last year was because there are a few quality internal candidates. Other possibles are Miller and Roos two Swams mates McPherson and Matthews. Roos has always referred to the Swans as an example of the coach in training process working. Horse was a internal selection after 5 or so years with the Swans. Rawlings would give us a persn with potentially 3 years under Roos or a minmum of 2. This ma also be why the club have not approached Roos to sign an extension. I personally think he will sign for a third year after his comments last night.

Just saw the below on the AFL site. 4. Melbourne got it right on Dom Tyson The Demons' decision to trade their No.2 draft pick to acquire Tyson from the Giants represented a calculated risk, but it was clearly the right call. The 21-year-old midfield gun has taken his game to new heights this season, and against Port Adelaide on Sunday produced the best game of his 29-match career. Collecting an equal career-high 32 possessions and booting two goals, he was clearly best on ground, adding seven tackles to his stats tally. – Harry Thring How long do you think Tyson will need to wait before the idiots acknowledge they were WRONG!!!!! Barret I am looking at you

Read that and have to say I agree WJ. The AFL handling of this has been a bit shambolic albeit in the best of intentions. It will be interesting see how it ends up for the AFL. I am confident that ASADA will eventually prevail but cant say the same for the action taken by the AFL. You would probably know a lot better than me but I would have thought that Essendon and Hird will go to town on the AFL if they prevail in the Federal Court case. The NRL played the ball while the AFL were caught playing the man and it may come back to bite them.

Ling??? Not that sure on this one. He is obvioulsy a quality person but it beggers the question why experienced assistant coaches are not banging the doors down. I think the AFL coaching system is in a bit of a mess. There are plenty of assistants like Stone who would be outstanding but just dont want the gig. Like Neeld said you get one chance then off to the wilderness of you fail. If we get Ling then Roos needs to hang around for at least 3 years to buy Ling the breathing space he needs.

Watts last half was outstanding. I think he was moved back to be loose player behind the ball n the swecond half, a job he has done well before. His disposal is fantastic and he is athletic tall and has a great tank. I just wish he could use his height and strength better. He has all the attributes but does not always use them. That attack on the ball between him and Grey (I think) was soft. He had 10kgs on that bloke and was swept aside because Grey was prepared to put his body on the line and attak the ball. I just dont think Wats has it in him. He als plays short for a tall bloke. I have seen him shink and wrestle in marking contests against short mids. He needs to use his weight and strength (He is right up there in strength tests) and get his hands up in the air. If he can get this right he will make Goodes look like a plodder.

Blease???? Why cant this bloke get a game. His pace and attack are what we desperately need. He obvioulsy hasa flaw in his game that every coach has highlighted but he does add a fair bit whe he comes in. I cant wait to see the effect of another preseason into JKH. This bloke may be the answer to our small forward problem we have had for years. The new Whiz??? I thought Kent was also quite handy. Kent, Blease and JKH in the side make us look sharp and dangerous. Love Pig Dog. A preseason into this bloke and I would not want to be an opposition player taking posassion anywhere near him. All in all I thought we do okay playing away against a good side down on form. Umpiring ($#&^# %#^%#$ *%^%# $#&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). We were unlucky not to win with a couple of posters and some dodgy free kicks paid that cost us easy goals. I though Viney was stiff on Schultz. Can anyone enlighten me on the holding the ball rule? The one where a player takes posession without prior oppportunity and gets smothered on the deck. My wife, father in law and myself have no idea why one is paid and others are not. When ever this situation occurs we all wait and the longer it goes before a whistle is heard the more we suspect a free will be paid. But we have absolutely no idea how most of the ones paid are different from the others. We are not idiots and have watched the game for many years and have a reasonable grab of the rules but we all sit there and shake our heads and cant work it out. I dont blame the Umpires but I think the rules need to be addressed so that fans like us can work out what is a free and what is not. There is not point marketng the game in NSW, Qld and NZ is the rules are so grey that even footy tragics like my family cant work it out.

What a load of rubbish. This is yet to be determined. These kids are still young and have been playing in a badly coached and side and have had to shoulder the leadership burdon way too young. There is still up side in them all. Watts, Grimes and Trenners need time, development and on field support. there are plenty of people on the list to go before them.

Not sure I agree with point 11. This will reward the better teams in the bottom half of the ladder especially those with the better draw. The reason teams are at the bottom with a low percentage is they are no good. Its not very likely regardless of the carrot of an earlier pick they will be able to improve their percentage. Over the years this would just make it harder for rubbish team to get off the bottom because they will be less likely to get first pick in the draft. I think the tanking debate as been a nothing debate from day one. The detrimental effect of tanking (what ever that is) far outweighs the benfit of an earlier pick. We picked Toumpas well before Wines and lost on that deal. Yes its better to have pick one but it is not guarantee of success. A team that plays without desire and hope will destroy a playing list and and we are a case in point. Teams wil play out the year regardless because without that burning desire to success ingrained at every level in the club draft picks will be doomed. There is not a chance in hell Roos will do anything other than fight to final siren of the season and would expect nothing less from his players coaches and administrators.

3 months for my hip replacement My daughter was away from dancing for 4 weeks with her appendix op and that was only slightly inflamed.

Would not suprise me. Little continually states he is taking action to protect and fight for the players. I dont believe a word of it. His track record in business is the opposite when it comes to employees. I cant see how this Federal Court case is in the interests of the players. The week before doing this he was whinging about how long this had been going on and it needed to be finalised because of the toll on the players, then hang on!! lets drag this out at least another 6 months through the courts. This action is about playing finals this year. I have no doubt that the actions taken by Little are all for the benefit of the business. He is a pragmatic businessman and well aware that at a minimum 8-10 player currently on the list will be gone next year. Any bans applied next year will therefor have less impact. I cant see how the players cant see the danger of putting there eggs in littles basket. I would want not want to be facing a ban for the first half of next season with the Club making decisions on who stays and who goes. Little is setting the club up to ensure players facing bans who are not critical to the team can be delisted before bans are applied. Delisting players who are serving bans would be a real image and possibly legal problem.

Champion in all senses of the word. Would love to see him at the Dees but donmt want us heading down the inexperience route again. I think if we get Lenny or Ling or for that matter Junior they need to backed by two years apprenteship under Roos and an expeienced panel of assistant and development coaches. We cant have a coaching panel like Neelds again.

Anyone see the comments by Tim Watson that Hird should not come back to the club this year? Not sure what to read in this but if Hird did have the players welfare as his priority I think Watson is 100% correct. The circus that will follow Hird will only distract the club and the players ata a time they should be focussing on a possible finals series. Be interesting to see what the little egotist decides to do. IMO if he was a half decent person and loved the club he would do what cuddles has done and fall on his sword. Not much honour on display at windy hill.

I agree about the players and recon it is a good thing they have not joined the Club and Hird in court action. MY point was about remissions available to Hird and the Club as I would not be surprised to see a raft of show causes notices issued if player get bans. The Club itself could be banned under the rules.

Absolutely the CEO has a role. He is running the busness and that business is winning games of football. Where he differs from our last CEO is he will let the experts worry about the detail but he will definately but all over the big picture. His decisions will impact on whether we can afford to payout contracts, he will be the one to make any case for priority pick, he will have a say in what we can afford in terms of offers to any free agents and players wanting a trade. He will consider the impact of list decisions on the bottom line and ability to sell the club. Its not one or the other but the ability of a bunch of people to work together and make to right decisions for the club going forward.

Absolutely but they are not that easy to find. Neeld tried the same thing with Dawes, Rodan, Byrnes but only Dawes has provided much on field. I think Cross is one out the box, becuase of the unique situation the doggies were in with too many old stars and the need to bring youngsters in. At the end of the day we need to dvelop out own and that will just take time becuase we have just gone through 5 years of compromised drafts and the only thing players have learnt from the last 5 years is how to loose.

IHS The case put by the Bombers to have the joint Investigation decaled illegal and all the evidence chucked out is in the opinion of some on here and obviously ASADA, not strong. Even if the Judge finds the jont investigation illegal there are a range of discretionary reasons that the judge can use to allow theinvestigation to proceed. Historically Courts are loath to throw entire cases out on technicalities unless the reasons are compelling. The case put by Essendon is based more on how the AFL rules were used rather than actions taken for which no powers exist. The fact that Essendon have taken this action rather than answer the show cause and show why they should not be listed on the register by the ADRVP indicates that they themselves believe that the evidence against them is compelling and that infractions are likely to follow. If they has evidence that showed they did nothing wrong they would use it. Taking this action may ultimately negatively impact on the Bombers as it means remissions to any bans may not be available to them. The show cause was a concrete step that made things worse for the Bombers.