Even if it takes 5-7 years? Because as Hards stated, our recruiting policy over the past 5 years has been built around hard in-and-under mids (McLean, Jones, Sylvia,) who aren't suited to a run and carry style.

Run and carry does not eliminate the need for contested ball winners. McLean and Jones are needed and will continue to be needed in order to win the ball in the midfield.

Sylvia, unless he improves dramatically won't be needed regardless of which game plan we employ.

I don't think it will take 5-7 years for us to reach some level of success, football turnarounds are hardly ever that long. But yes, I am happy to struggle for a couple of seasons if it means we develop a team capable of bringing us the ultimate success. We have some very capable young kids who we can build around, but we also have a huge amount of deadwood on our list which we will need to clear out before we can become really successful.

Do you honestly believe that our list at the moment is good enough to win a premiership? Are we honestly capable of competing with Geelong, Hawthorn etc...?

In and under mids are always required.

Got to get first hands on the footy.

Outside mids are everywhere, not hard to find them.

I think we'll only manage 2 wins for the season as far as a "game plan" goes. The players are just not working hard enough to achieve any sort of game plan. Yet putting it to practice as of now we can clearly tell it doesnt suit.

Even if it takes 5-7 years? Because as Hards stated, our recruiting policy over the past 5 years has been built around hard in-and-under mids (McLean, Jones, Sylvia,) who aren't suited to a run and carry style.

And Bartel and Ling are postcards for run and carry ? I love pace, but the best teams move the ball quickly, and have great skills and decision making. They're not necessarily the fleetest by foot. Outside quickish mids are far easier to find than effective contested ball winners. As Essendon are showing, the latter don't take years to develop.

Every successful side needs hard bodied inside mids complimented by skilful users who can break the lines. Things can turn around quickly. It won't take 5-7.

Frankly, you mostly talk [censored].

If players are given responsibility to make the best decision when they have the ball we will be more likely to win games.

If you think trying to make players go against natural instincts at all costs is a positive you are incredibly naive.

I want to win games, I dont see any positives in creating a team where we delist 50% of our list as they arent cut from that cloth.

From what I read that is a conservative estimate by those that are grimly holding onto the masterplan.

What point is there in changing how players play in a team you are going to get rid of?

Im pragmatic, I want to see a win not a car crash.

If players are given responsibility to make the best decision when they have the ball we will be more likely to win games.

If you think trying to make players go against natural instincts at all costs is a positive you are incredibly naive.

I want to win games, I dont see any positives in creating a team where we delist 50% of our list as they arent cut from that cloth.

From what I read that is a conservative estimate by those that are grimly holding onto the masterplan.

What point is there in changing how players play in a team you are going to get rid of?

Im pragmatic, I want to see a win not a car crash.

Frawley has got to stop setting up players with up and under kicks. Flash looks impeded by lower leg injury. Dunn looks huge! I thought that the backline worked very well together. The forward line has a forward coach? We must have missed at least 6-7 easy shots at goal. Morton looks a class above, his side step along the boundary was sublime. What is with the handball behind to astationary player who gets grabbed by the on coming opposition? This is not Rugby League. The opposition can tackle from behind. It looks to be happening to often to be accidental?

2. Make sure all handballs or kicks, bounce on the ground in front of the player you are passing it to.

I agree Moose, their skills are dreadful. Whatever they're practicing at training, it's not the basic skills of footy. Today I can't remember how many times I was cringing at the bloopers.

there is no game plan

its run around get a touch if u can

or give the other team the ball

That's about it. Bailey has removed any sense of understanding the players have, and replaced it with nothing (that's understandable).

If players are given responsibility to make the best decision when they have the ball we will be more likely to win games.

If you think trying to make players go against natural instincts at all costs is a positive you are incredibly naive.

I want to win games, I dont see any positives in creating a team where we delist 50% of our list as they arent cut from that cloth.

From what I read that is a conservative estimate by those that are grimly holding onto the masterplan.

What point is there in changing how players play in a team you are going to get rid of?

Im pragmatic, I want to see a win not a car crash.

Outstanding post!

Sylvia showed today that his power running could be a real advantage for us with this style. Similarly McLean's clean hands and vision in close show work really well going forward.

We need the hard in and unders. But now we will focus of getting differernt types of footballs to complement our gameplan.

Also, Hards, we have seen you argue that you don't believe this gameplan to be the way forward because it doesn't suit our current playing list. You believe that the gameplan should be "based around running half backs, kicking to lead up targets and quick ball movement to multiple tall key forwards."

Looking at that I could equally make an argument that this gameplan doesn't suit our current players so we need to get a new plan. We don't have "multiple tall key forwards". Who are our multiple tall key forwards that we should be basing our gameplan around?

The way I see it, our forward line will be more geared around pace and movement with mid-sized marking targets because these are the types of players we have. Bate, Dunn, Sylvia, Garland, Maric are the types that dominate. Robertson is around for another year after this perhaps. Newton is in trouble. Miller is the only of these players that can contest the long ball, but even he is a better hit up player.

So, given our forward line's strengths (especially in the youngsters which is where we should be looking) we need to develop a plan that enables us to use our many mid-sized marking options. This may be by utilising their mobility to push up and down the ground which would involve linking up with players so that we can either hit up a forward on a lead inside 50 or run the ball through 50 and goal.

I think that the biggest problem we are having at the moment is coming to terms with full ground accountability. I saw it get a lot better this week, although we let them get away with a burst in the second quarter. We forced them to chip around a lot in defence due to our improved accountability which was pleasing. The defensive running was much better this week (from most) which I liked.

Nobody can say yet whether Bailey's appointment was right or wrong, as the season is 5 rounds in. I don't mind that you have a different opinion of his style as everybody does it differently and time will tell who's right. I personally like what he's trying to do with the club, as it shows that he is focussed solely on winning a premiership rather than just aiming at short term finals action.

If players are given responsibility to make the best decision when they have the ball we will be more likely to win games.

If you think trying to make players go against natural instincts at all costs is a positive you are incredibly naive.

I want to win games, I dont see any positives in creating a team where we delist 50% of our list as they arent cut from that cloth.

From what I read that is a conservative estimate by those that are grimly holding onto the masterplan.

What point is there in changing how players play in a team you are going to get rid of?

Im pragmatic, I want to see a win not a car crash.

Amen! Keep going how we are and we won't win a game. And it's not losing half the list who aren't up to Bailey's grand ideas, or even Bailey's job that is the worry, it's the future of Melbourne Footy Club.

I think a coach has to stick to his gameplan rather than change it to suit his players.

Bu****it. If you have a group of plumbers, you can't take on a job for sparkies.

You must deal with what you have. Plan, manipulate, connive, whatever, but you can't say "I want red, stiff [censored] if you're green".

And be accountable. FFS, will some one in this club stand up and say "I am accountable, the buck stops with me"????

FFS :angry: :angry: :angry:

I think it depends over what period of time you're looking at. If you want quick success you would mould a gameplan to suit the players you have, and probably a substandard one at that, to achieve mediocre success. i believe/hope that Bailey has an idea as to how a team needs to win a premiership and will go about building his team in that fashion, from the ground up, rather than making quick fix quasi-solutions

I agree Moose, their skills are dreadful. Whatever they're practicing at training, it's not the basic skills of footy. Today I can't remember how many times I was cringing at the bloopers.

Now if the players were fair dinkum they'd take it upon themselves to spend that extra 30mins a training session to improve them.

They're being paid to perform and if that's what is required that's what they need to do

I think it depends over what period of time you're looking at. If you want quick success you would mould a gameplan to suit the players you have, and probably a substandard one at that, to achieve mediocre success. i believe/hope that Bailey has an idea as to how a team needs to win a premiership and will go about building his team in that fashion, from the ground up, rather than making quick fix quasi-solutions

These are not the only choices: manipulate what you have for (maybe )early success, or build from the ground up, ground zero.

There is also, look at what you have, look at what you want in say 4 years, and get there in increments, with maybe some success. This takes talent and skill (from the coaches).

I don't believe supporters want a premiership, or nothing. What they want (me certainly) is a team that is very competitive, with identifiable claims on a premiership.

In particular, I think the ground zero idea is absurd. Even if you could, turning over half your list each year (with a less than 30% success rate) is just a recipe for disaster.

Melbourne have had a competitive team with claims on a premiership each of the last 4 years, arguably most of the past 8, and it has achieved nothing. We now have a new coach who hopefully has a grasp upon what he believes will deliver us a premiership, if not this then why else would you follow footy. Maybe this task will deliver minimal success along the way, maybe it will take a while, all i for hope is that when it comes to fruition it is proven to be a successful tactic, wins along the way or not

Nobody can say yet whether Bailey's appointment was right or wrong, as the season is 5 rounds in. I don't mind that you have a different opinion of his style as everybody does it differently and time will tell who's right. I personally like what he's trying to do with the club, as it shows that he is focussed solely on winning a premiership rather than just aiming at short term finals action.

Exactly.

I don't want to play finals, I want a premiership. It's been a long, LONG time since we've tasted real success and anything in between just won't do. The nature of this competition dictates that if you don't come first, you should come last and benefit from early draft picks. It worked for Hawthorn, and it's going to help Carlton and Richmond enormously. Luckily for Geelong they managed to grab Scarlett, Ablett x 2 and Hawkins under the F/S rules and they still bottomed out in 2003. It took them 4 years to win a flag.

We also bottomed out in 2003 and look at the difference between us and Geelong after 4 seasons.

They recruited to suit their needs (Ottens) and they developed a game plan which they believed would bring them success. In 2006 they struggled, but when things clicked they were unstoppable. If they were stubborn and didn't believe it was time for a change all those years ago, we'd both still be suffering from long premiership droughts.

This notion that it will take us years to be successful again is crazy. Look at the sort of players we have to build around... Rivers, Jones, McLean, Morton, Bartram, Frawley, Maric and the list goes on and on. All of these players suit the game plan that Bailey is trying to implement. They are accountable, but they can also attack a contest. They'll go in hard when it's their turn, but they can also use the footy by hand/foot (those who can't have plenty of time to learn).

Are we crazy that we're going to implement a game plan which suits the likes of Robbo, Junior, Green, Bruce, White, Whelan and Neita when these guys are not going to be around in 2-3 years, let alone when a premiership is on the cards? We have to build around the players who will be there to see us succeed. Our senior players have failed time and time again and we can no longer gear a game plan to their needs.

If some younger players happen to fall down as well because they lack basic accountability and a football brain, than they were never going to make it anyway.

I'm confident that the players I've mentioned above will not struggle (and have not struggled thus far) with Bailey's style. It is our youngest players who have adapted best and have really shown the way. Sadly, they are getting little support at the moment and it cannot be expected of them to win us games when we've played the best sides in the competition thus far. Today was a real opportunity for us to get the four points, but skill errors and kicking in-front of goals killed us.

Replace Robbo/Neita with Fevola and we probably would have won.

...We now have a new coach who hopefully has a grasp upon what he believes will deliver us a premiership, if not this then why else would you follow footy. Maybe this task will deliver minimal success along the way, maybe it will take a while, all i for hope is that when it comes to fruition it is proven to be a successful tactic, wins along the way or not

[censored].

Supporters want a highly competitive team, that has a chance at a premiership. Be it AFL or bush footy. Week-in week-out.

I bet you buy lotto tickets too, expecting to win. Good grief.

So you'd take the hollow performances of 04-06 over the chance to give a premiership a proper tilt would you?

Insert [censored] statement here:

....Replace Robbo/Neita with Fevola and we probably would have won.

[censored]. Judd maybe.

^^^^ well put Jaded^^^^

There is obviously a path being taken by Bailey..I suppose we can only really guesstimate as to what it is, but most likely its about sortig out a bit of talent and 'teachability" from available stocks and then adding to it as occasions arise.

Am very intrigued in light of above comments and just observation of his ( DB) comments to date as to who will take the field come round 7

[censored].

Supporters want a highly competitive team, that has a chance at a premiership. Be it AFL or bush footy. Week-in week-out.

I bet you buy lotto tickets too, expecting to win. Good grief.

Wait so you think with a different game plan we would have a chance of winning a premiership?

We haven't gotten close to success since 2002. The 04-06 era saw us fall down when it counted the most, leading up to and during the finals. We all felt great about it and are now shocked to realise that we were as far away from a flag then as we are now. You can only keep finishing in the bottom half of the eight for so long before realising that you just ain't go what it takes to take it any further.

Why did Grant Thomas get sacked if being a competitive team is all it really takes?

Finals are fun, but if you keep finishing 8th you get neither a premiership nor good draft picks. It's fools paradise.

Supporters want a highly competitive team, that has a chance at a premiership.

I agree...but you do realise that thats a different thing from a team that slides in and out of finals !!!

So you'd take the hollow performances of 04-06 over the chance to give a premiership a proper tilt would you?

Insert realistic statement here:

No, not at all, but at the time, we thought (hoped) we had a real tilt. In deed that's my point, with maybe 1 win this year, then 2 next year, when do you realise again that this lots is not going to make it, or go close. 20/20 hindsight is real handy.

No team, no body has had such a pathetic start to a footy season in my (long) memory. I repeat, nobody. I repeat, nobody!

But that's OK, lets trust Bails! FFS :angry: :angry:

....You can only keep finishing in the bottom half of the eight for so long before realising that you just ain't go what it takes to take it any further.

Try last on the ladder for a few years. Bottom half of the eight will look real good. And early draft picks don't look so good (except for 1 or 2 years) either.

I want a team I can barrack for week-in week-out that is (very) competitive.

What we have here is a rabble that hasn't been seen for 40+ years, and is laughable.

Give me a bottom-half top eight finish any time in preference to this (even if it kills me during finals time).