Maybe time for PJ to be slotted into a permanent backline position ( sorry Benny) - if White and Meesen can hold the main ruck two, PJ could develop as a pretty handy defender for the tall forwards.

Maybe time for PJ to be slotted into a permanent backline position ( sorry Benny) - if White and Meesen can hold the main ruck two, PJ could develop as a pretty handy defender for the tall forwards.

he's a ruckman, not a defender.

Holland does better than most against the big bodies and Rivers / Frawley are able to take the agile Pavlich's etc.

Don't see any use for him.

Hawthorns Robert Campbell and our very own Alistair Nicholson is a good example of why ruckmen don't make good backmen.

Maybe time for PJ to be slotted into a permanent backline position ( sorry Benny) - if White and Meesen can hold the main ruck two, PJ could develop as a pretty handy defender for the tall forwards.

how would the rest of the backline look?

how would the rest of the backline look?

Wheels Nathan Belly

Rivs PJ Chip

Wheels Nathan Belly

Rivs PJ Chip

Seems a bit tall me ,you need a midfielder/running player off the flanks. I think we need to throw Chip and Riv in at the deep end. They are both natural defenders IMO!

Plus, I doubt Carroll will be first 18 player for much longer, sure he has the body and the aggression, but he gets lost to easily against the more skillful tall forwards.

PJ is a ruckman or a forward, definitely not a defender. It'd be like in 2001 when Danners tried to turn Simmonds into a CHB!

Seems a bit tall me ,you need a midfielder/running player off the flanks. I think we need to throw Chip and Riv in at the deep end. They are both natural defenders IMO!

Plus, I doubt Carroll will be first 18 player for much longer, sure he has the body and the aggression, but he gets lost to easily against the more skillful tall forwards.

PJ is a ruckman or a forward, definitely not a defender. It'd be like in 2001 when Danners tried to turn Simmonds into a CHB!

agree about Carroll, need a Bruce/Pettard streaming of the halfback line

Seems a bit tall me ,you need a midfielder/running player off the flanks. I think we need to throw Chip and Riv in at the deep end. They are both natural defenders IMO!

Plus, I doubt Carroll will be first 18 player for much longer, sure he has the body and the aggression, but he gets lost to easily against the more skillful tall forwards.

PJ is a ruckman or a forward, definitely not a defender. It'd be like in 2001 when Danners tried to turn Simmonds into a CHB!

Remember our first game last season against Geelong?

Cam Mooney cutting us up?

Who went on to him in third term and stopped him?

PJ that's who!

Plus, I doubt Carroll will be first 18 player for much longer, sure he has the body and the aggression, but he gets lost to easily against the more skillful tall forwards.

Disagree with that. I reckon he did it pretty much on his own last season. Even Rivers at full tilt would have had a hard time with NO help. We all know he's not a great AFL player, he doesn't have the skill and brilliance of Rivers, but he CERTAINLY has his uses, and I think you'd struggle to find a successful defence that hasn't had one of these workmen. Carroll needs a handful of other quality talls who know how to zone off around him, but he is at least a fantastic one-on-one defender when he gets his assistance. To take him out when the injury list is not as severe smacks of cutting off the nose to spite the face. And as an added bonus, he's one of the most resilient, if not the most resilient players in the side. We see him every second week get knocked out, or all but have his rib-cage caved in, and he still gets up and gives the same quality footy. We have a lot of brilliant but injury prone players. He's not one of them.

On PJ, I'm happy for him to have a run there. I've seen him do some really good work. But I think it's naive to think he has a future as a four quarter CHB or FB. He has pace, he is ENORMOUS both in height and breadth, his work ethic is among the best at the club... if ever there was going to be a 200cm ruckman that would go well as a KP defender it would be him. Unfortunately though, even though he's a small man in a tall man's body, his engine will let him down. How is he supposed to keep up with the lightning quick, endurance-based athletic CHFs like Reiwoldt, the Pav, Franklin and Brown? These guys make 50 leads a match and eventually PJ will be found out. Add to that the fact that unlike Rivers who will take 6-10 grabs against his man in defence, PJ will probably be instructed to always go the spoil if he has the opportunity. He could be a handy negating force against the Everitts and Lades of the world who rest in a forward pocket, but in the end he still hasn't found a home. The exception would be if he had an appropriate opponent for the full four quarters. THEN you could see what he came up with with his 120 minutes...

That's the fundamental problem with him. He has heaps going for him as a footballer, he can pich-hit at both ands AND in the ruck, but can't earn his stripes at any one of these positions as a regular AFL player. I am a HUGE fan of his, and have been for a while now, but I worry...

PJ is really at risk of being in no man's land, much like Ryan Ferguson was. An okay ruckman/onballer, an okay key defender and an okay forward, but not good enough to do any of them on a regular basis.

Seems a bit tall me ,you need a midfielder/running player off the flanks. I think we need to throw Chip and Riv in at the deep end. They are both natural defenders IMO!

Plus, I doubt Carroll will be first 18 player for much longer, sure he has the body and the aggression, but he gets lost to easily against the more skillful tall forwards.

PJ is a ruckman or a forward, definitely not a defender. It'd be like in 2001 when Danners tried to turn Simmonds into a CHB!

slot in cheney and mcnamara then!

PJ is really at risk of being in no man's land, much like Ryan Ferguson was. An okay ruckman/onballer, an okay key defender and an okay forward, but not good enough to do any of them on a regular basis.

Good analysis nash, although you're being very kind

If the MFC are ever going to challange for a flag then i cant see PJ in the backline. Although he has height and played a few quarters at an OK rate in the position we must realise there are new kids coming through, potentually 3 more defenders (???) and i could never see PJ being a good defender

Could he play as a wingman? His pace is pretty good and he's not a bad kick.

PJ is really at risk of being in no man's land, much like Ryan Ferguson was. An okay ruckman/onballer, an okay key defender and an okay forward, but not good enough to do any of them on a regular basis.

If PJ is going to make it, its going to be as a ruckman. And here he struggles. The heat is on Jamar PJ and Meesen to step up. All three wont be on the list at year end if they dont perform. He wont cut it purely up forward or back longer term.

I still have high hopes for him as a forward, when Robbo and Neitz go I think PJ and Newton can play side by side out of the square. He just needs to hold his marks 199cm bloke that leads well has a decent kick is hard to man up on.

Could he play as a wingman? His pace is pretty good and he's not a bad kick.

he would be easily exploited when ball is going other way

Unless PJ is given a chance to prove himself and is re-invented as a permanent forward then his days at the MFC are numbered.

Way too big and slow for a wing (!) and simply not up to it for a senior rucking role because his work around the ground after the bounce leaves a lot to be desired. Not for want of trying, simply athletic ability and body type.

A poor man's Jonathan Brown.

He's a ruckman that could occasionly pinch hit at either end of the ground when needed i like PJ but at the moment he is a depth player with alot of potential

Way too big and slow for a wing (!) and simply not up to it for a senior rucking role because his work around the ground after the bounce leaves a lot to be desired. Not for want of trying, simply athletic ability and body type.

I think he works pretty hard around the ground. I dont think that that has ever been the issue regarding PJ's ability to step up as a 1st ruck or not. His strengths as a player are his 'small man' qualities. i.e good below his knees for size, reads the play well, runs to the right positions to receive the ball and link up thru the midfield. Tidy footskills and has shown in the past to be generally a good finisher around goal (07 was an aberration IMO). The reason he would not be up to standard as an AFL senior #1 ruck lies more in his weaknesses -- his ruck work and contested marking ability - which he has improved, athough probably not yet to the consistent standard required of him.

He works much harder than Jamar, who despite his 'big man' strengths (strong contested mark and good ruck tap ability), is hopelessly lost when the ball hits the deck, and doesnt run anywhere near hard enough around the ground to make position.

Hopefully we've found the happy medium between Jamar and Johnson in Meeson. The overhead ability and tap skill of Jamar, with the natural agility and football skills of Johnson. Add Meeson's elite endurance, and who knows, we might have a player on our hands... Fingers crossed.

It'll be an interesting time in 08 for the ruck division, with the addition of Meeson and to a lesser extent Martin. I very much look forward to seeing who comes out on top and stakes claim at JW's #1 ruck spot.

In regard to the subject of the topic, i think it could definitely be something worth trying PJ back for long periods of match time in the NAB cup. As someone mentioned earlier, he did make some ground as a backman in his short time there with a good performance on Cam Mooney after Mooney slaughtered Carroll (i think?). If he could show something at fullback in the preseason comp, like a good performance on a Mooney, Hall, Rocca or Gehrig... who knows, maybe we MIGHT have an answer to our gorilla FB question marks. I'm not saying we will, but who knows? Theres definitely no harm in trying it out.

Anyway i'm goin to bed... its 4am

Doggo...

You've probably summed up the generl consensus when it comes to PJ right there. The negative nancies will decry his weaknesses and call for his head, and the positive... umm... percys (?) will claim his kicking ability and endurance will keep him in good stead.

Your post has provoked a thought in me though -

I think it's fair to say that one of the tougher jobs for recruiters is to select ruckmen in the modern game that are going to turn out to be stars, or at least one of the starting 16 ruckmen in the AFL. Along with selecting good CHFs and CHBs it must be the hardest type of crystal-ball gazing going around.

When we look at players like Kreuzer and Leuenberger... Ruckmen taken within the first few picks who may not play quality football for years to come, I sometimes wonder whether or not it's wise to use such crucial picks on players who could come unstuck for any number of reasons. For example, Fraser was taken early, and in my opinion while he's an ok player, I wouldn't call him a top 5 ruckman. At least not yet. He just turned 26 and has not dominated the game as some ruckmen have in the past. For example, Jeff White. Back in the day when you could run and jump and 195cm ruckmen were dominant, Jeff was having a say in football games when he was barely out of his teens.

What with ruckmen now needing to be gigantic to even be considered for a list, things have changed. These days Jeff would have probably gone lower due to his height (Not MUCH lower).

So over the last five or so years, since the rule changes were brought in, it's fair to assume that the complexion of ruck rucruiting has changed. So what do they do? As far as I can tell, it seems that the ridiculously tall guys are recruited, but given YEARS on the list as more-or-less a rookie to learn the ropes until their bodies fill out. The fans and so-called experts call for their heads as they develop slowly, and if they're lucky enough to stay in the game they seem to do their best work in their late twenties and beyond.... Some examples, Ottens (28), Lade (31), and Everitt (57?).

In Lade's case, he's certainly done his best work in his Autumn years, Everitt was considered the best in the game in the years around his thirtieth birthday, and Ottens was a basket-case who was traded to another club by the vultures at Punt Road, he landed at the Cats and was scapegoated for a terrible season, and now he's a much loved big-man who was one of the keys to the Cat's long-awaited premiership.

If you're a tall bloke (6-foot+), ask yourself this. When was it you felt comfortable in your body? As in, when did you fill out? Maybe you're a Cam Bruce typre and you're perennially skinny. Maybe it was early twenties... I have a feeling though that MOST big guys struggle to put weight on and get comfortable in their skin until heir 25th birthday. For small sky-scrapers like Brad Ottens and PJ, I have a feeling this may be true too. With modern day training techniques, PJ has become a big man well before his 24th birthday in June this year. But would it be fair to say that despite being the size of a small elephant, he's far from comfortable throwing himself at the Aaron Sandilands in the game? It doesn't matter how big you are if you don't have the willpower to throw yourself into the contest.

I remember that infamous Sydney game where he did his shoulder. Probably unanimously the most courageous play of the year by a demon, and what did it get him? A career threatening injury, and a huge set-back in his development that didn't clear up COMPLETELY 'til midway through last year.

So anyway, my theory is that with the new-found hunger recruiters have for 200cm plus ruckmen, we as fans should probably be prepared to not see their best footy until roughly their 25th birthday, depending on the player, how they are coached, where they play, how they develop their bodies etc etc...

With that in mind, I still think PJ has a future. Possibly an enormous one for MFC. Every year there's always a ruckman that comes out of the woodwork and defies expectation to knock off some of the bigger names in the game. I'm almost completely off Jamar's bandwagon as I think he doesn't have anywhere near the ability of PJ, and Meesen is an unknown quantity... PJ HAS played some good footy for us, and I'm keen to see what he can do with the next 2-3 years. I no longer think of him as one of those "perform now, or goodbye" players.

Good points Dappa and Doggo. I'd be the first to acknowledge that PJ puts in and plays footy like his life depends on it. And definitely more natural talent than Jamar. But is he a ruckman?

I hadn't really considered PJ as a backman. I don't see him as all that mobile unless he's running in a straight line. You may be right as that's what Presty etc do. Run hard, direct and at the contest.

Then again, if we need a gorilla in the goal square when Neita retires, PJ may be the man.

In my opinion, the jury is still out on whether Newton can cut it. John Coleman may be his role model but you have to wrestle and hold the ball in and get dirty. Maybe he'll learn under DB.

Interesting times await.

In my opinion, the jury is still out on whether Newton can cut it. John Coleman may be his role model but you have to wrestle and hold the ball in and get dirty. Maybe he'll learn under DB.

Interesting times await.

Remember the heady days when every thread we commented on became something to do with Juice? Well here I go again...

I agree with that point about Newton, that the jury is still out. But as with many of the Juice faithful, I have compiled a LOT of personal info and opinions about the way he goes about the game. Where available I went to see him play and would watch him almost exclusively when he was on the ground. And in terms of the "jury being out" I have a point or two to make about him.

With PJ, he has his strengths and he has his weaknesses. His lack of genuine ruck dominance, and his inability to mark overhead are two concerning factors. With Juice, like you say he has to get down and dirty and get used to making hard contact with the heaviest opponents in the AFL. The difference between the two is that PJ has shown, in his 5-odd years in footy that he is only very slowly learning to correct the faults in his game, if at all. Juice was told by Neale that he had to do the one-percnters and add defensive work to his leads, marks and kicking. Basically to do the bumping, chasing and tackling. Juice added these strengths to the point that, at least at Sandy, they were something of a feature in his game. More than a few times I saw him try to deck guys after they'd disposed of the ball, which is something you LOVE to see. A forward who wants to beat his opposition AND hurt them.

So when you say the jury is out on Juice, and PJ alike, I would say that at least Newton has the embryonic signs of the complete KP forward in there. PJ as a step or two behind him in that sense.

The concern with Michael I think is the whole VFL/AFL divide. He has DOMINATED at VFL level, more often than not last season, and at AFL he has done some encouraging things (and one SENSATIONAL thing) but hasn't looked like he could own a game just yet. This is my concern. Sylvia, CJ, PJ, Jamar, Read, Ward, Godfrey... these are the names of players that as yet in their careers have owned many VFL games but have never made the transition. For my part it always seems the most intangible thing. Bartram stepped straight into the AFL and did more than his fair share. Some guys just never do. Is it a mental thing? I can never tell, and it's one of the hardest things when determining a player's worth for the red and blue. The only thing that got me behind Juice early on was the fact that he had ALL the aspects a modern day power forward needs. THEORETICALLY I thought he'd make it... but then if that's true, why has Sylvia struggled?

The whole thing gives me a headache.